US Army Warrants
Beags dear chap,
Why is it I see Budweiser sold in the stores and behind the bars in pubs now? It could not be found years ago anywhere here.
Not that I would drink it here or at home!
Why is it I see Budweiser sold in the stores and behind the bars in pubs now? It could not be found years ago anywhere here.
Not that I would drink it here or at home!
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Beages old chap, right on point when you compare septic WOs to grunts.
Septics just can't understand the difference between a Master Ice Cream Dispenser First Class with "go faster" stripes on his/her sleeves for swimming 20 metres, plus a chest full of medals for giving blood at the Red Cross transfusion service, being a specialist in what he/she does; and a commissioned officer in a command role who is required to lead, inspire and manage others; and be accountable for same
Enough trouble trying to find commissioned officers with the "right stuff", let alone septic WOs with delusions of grandeur that stop short of actually taking charge of anything. Bit like some contemporary US politicians and federal public servants, I suppose.
Septics just can't understand the difference between a Master Ice Cream Dispenser First Class with "go faster" stripes on his/her sleeves for swimming 20 metres, plus a chest full of medals for giving blood at the Red Cross transfusion service, being a specialist in what he/she does; and a commissioned officer in a command role who is required to lead, inspire and manage others; and be accountable for same
Enough trouble trying to find commissioned officers with the "right stuff", let alone septic WOs with delusions of grandeur that stop short of actually taking charge of anything. Bit like some contemporary US politicians and federal public servants, I suppose.
TAC Int Bloke
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a commissioned officer in a command role who is required to lead, inspire and manage others; and be accountable for same
The Green Eyed Monster arises methinks....or someone who tangled with one of those old time warrants.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Officers get saluted within their own service and by other national services because the regulations say so. Officers from services of other nations get saluted either as a curtesy or because of an official agreement between the nations. In particular, within NATO there is an agreement and this includes the definition of equivalent ranks. Within this agreement Warrant officers are ranked below officers and above enlisted servicemen.
The US may have decided to give some of their WOs commissioned officer status, but they have not had an amendment made to the NATO equivalent rank structure and, since NATO only works with unanimous agreement, I wouldn't hold my breath.
So said WO will not get saluted because he is not entitled to be saluted.
The US may have decided to give some of their WOs commissioned officer status, but they have not had an amendment made to the NATO equivalent rank structure and, since NATO only works with unanimous agreement, I wouldn't hold my breath.
So said WO will not get saluted because he is not entitled to be saluted.
Last edited by ORAC; 17th Sep 2005 at 09:10.
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Oh mighty ORAC,
Straight shootin tex and stating the "bleedin" obvious...........wonder if our bumpkin cousins will understand it
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Straight shootin tex and stating the "bleedin" obvious...........wonder if our bumpkin cousins will understand it
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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SASless
No green eyed monster I'm afraid. Just reinforcing the point that, when it comes to comparisons outside of the US, septic WOs are further down the food chain than commissioned officers.
No green eyed monster I'm afraid. Just reinforcing the point that, when it comes to comparisons outside of the US, septic WOs are further down the food chain than commissioned officers.
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WC
When you learn where to put apostrophes (Kennedy's what?), I'll learn to accept your views on the British Monarchy. The Queen's punctuation being better than yours, I'm content with her commission. Her Majesty's powers are in fact somewhat extensive, and she can indeed exercise them - in the 70s she appointed Harold Wilson as PM when he had a majority of -30 because of a hung Parliament. Seems a little more efficient than battling an election result through the courts, only for a bench of judges to select the candidate with an outright minority...
Her general role (advise, warn and counsel) has certainly been exercised on a number of occasions, with varying degrees of success. She is the Commander in Chief, so that the British Armed Forces are by definition apolitical. Sir Winston Churchill had to revise some pretty shaky decisions when the Chiefs of the Imperial General Staff said that they'd wait to hear the King order them to do things personally...
As others have said: WARRANT officers hold a warrant from the Secretary of State for Defence here in Blighty, and from the Secretary of the Army/Navy/Air Force in the US. They are, therefore, by definition, clearly, undeniably, NOT commissioned, a commission being a document from the Head of State (HM or Bush) appointing someone as an officer. Ergo, Warrant Officers will not be saluted by British personnel of any rank, at any time, for any reason.
It's not intended as a slight to our US cousins, it's a simple matter of precedence and protocol. I'd suggest that if you're really that bothered about someone not saluting you, you're likely to be a total pain in the arse to work with.
An apocryphal story tells of a Flight Lieutenant (pronounced "leff-tenant", SASless
) who was being "mentored" (bollocked) by a WO. The WO concluded the "meeting" (arse-chewing) with the comment, "... and never, EVER confuse your rank with my seniority!"
T_E
When you learn where to put apostrophes (Kennedy's what?), I'll learn to accept your views on the British Monarchy. The Queen's punctuation being better than yours, I'm content with her commission. Her Majesty's powers are in fact somewhat extensive, and she can indeed exercise them - in the 70s she appointed Harold Wilson as PM when he had a majority of -30 because of a hung Parliament. Seems a little more efficient than battling an election result through the courts, only for a bench of judges to select the candidate with an outright minority...
Her general role (advise, warn and counsel) has certainly been exercised on a number of occasions, with varying degrees of success. She is the Commander in Chief, so that the British Armed Forces are by definition apolitical. Sir Winston Churchill had to revise some pretty shaky decisions when the Chiefs of the Imperial General Staff said that they'd wait to hear the King order them to do things personally...As others have said: WARRANT officers hold a warrant from the Secretary of State for Defence here in Blighty, and from the Secretary of the Army/Navy/Air Force in the US. They are, therefore, by definition, clearly, undeniably, NOT commissioned, a commission being a document from the Head of State (HM or Bush) appointing someone as an officer. Ergo, Warrant Officers will not be saluted by British personnel of any rank, at any time, for any reason.
It's not intended as a slight to our US cousins, it's a simple matter of precedence and protocol. I'd suggest that if you're really that bothered about someone not saluting you, you're likely to be a total pain in the arse to work with.
An apocryphal story tells of a Flight Lieutenant (pronounced "leff-tenant", SASless
) who was being "mentored" (bollocked) by a WO. The WO concluded the "meeting" (arse-chewing) with the comment, "... and never, EVER confuse your rank with my seniority!"T_E
I trust your little queens spelling and punctuation's skills are better than yours as well. I ran your post through the ole spell checker, you aint got nuthin to crow about pal.
As I've said before, royalty is like a placebo pill. Makes you feel good but doesn't do a damn thing for you.
As I've said before, royalty is like a placebo pill. Makes you feel good but doesn't do a damn thing for you.
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To quote tablet_eraser: "As others have said: WARRANT officers hold a warrant from the Secretary of State for Defence here in Blighty, and from the Secretary of the Army/Navy/Air Force in the US. They are, therefore, by definition, clearly, undeniably, NOT commissioned, a commission being a document from the Head of State (HM or Bush) appointing someone as an officer. Ergo, Warrant Officers will not be saluted by British personnel of any rank, at any time, for any reason."
As has been said by other from the U.S. military, except for WO1, U.S. Warrent Officers (WO2 - WO5) ARE commissioned by a Head of State, receiving their commission from the President and having it confirmed by the Senate. Only WO1 receives a Warrant from a service secretary.
This whole conversation reeks of British snobiness. Just like calling your enlisted "other ranks" like they are insignificant.
You expect us to recognize and respect your armed forces' customs and structure. You should respect ours in return. Should an enlisted U.S. soldier not salute a British Pilot Officer because he has a funny rank? (In the U.S. soldiers opinion.) After all, both the Pilot Officer and the U.S. Warrant Officer (WO2 - WO5) are commissioned by Heads of State.
As has been said by other from the U.S. military, except for WO1, U.S. Warrent Officers (WO2 - WO5) ARE commissioned by a Head of State, receiving their commission from the President and having it confirmed by the Senate. Only WO1 receives a Warrant from a service secretary.
This whole conversation reeks of British snobiness. Just like calling your enlisted "other ranks" like they are insignificant.
You expect us to recognize and respect your armed forces' customs and structure. You should respect ours in return. Should an enlisted U.S. soldier not salute a British Pilot Officer because he has a funny rank? (In the U.S. soldiers opinion.) After all, both the Pilot Officer and the U.S. Warrant Officer (WO2 - WO5) are commissioned by Heads of State.
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Should an enlisted U.S. soldier not salute a British Pilot Officer because he has a funny rank? (In the U.S. soldiers opinion).
As has been said, a US military WO wouldn't usually receive a salute from a British (or indeed any other NATO) enlisted/OR because they are classed as below commissioned, as shown here.
BTW it should be noted that it is also NATO who prescribe the use of OR to mean Other/Enlisted Rank and not just the UK.
Folks,
I don't expect to be saluted....never did....that was the beauty of being an old time Warrant Officer...and not being in any way associated with the US Army...I don't give a **** who gets saluted or not. If you read back over the posts....you will see that is my position and the only time I suggested British Enlisted and Non-Commissioned officers should salute American Army Warrant Officers was out of a sense of military courtesy and discipline. What you Teabags think about "Sceptic" ranks matters not a wit.
I would suggest if you cannot accept the fact the American Warrant Officer is a full fledged card carrying member of the Officers Mess then you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
I can assure you that doubt the fact that Warrants are officers....and thus entitled to the fullest extent of military courtesy....that if one of my Warrants was refused entrance to your Officers Mess....I would take my aircraft and crew and piss off to the nearest pub and let your OC explain to his chain of command why that happened.
Being an old time Warrant Officer....we learned not to suffer fools well. Anyone that persists in suggesting they would not extend and demand the proper military courtesy as a serving military officer is an idiot.
Skip the banter chaps...banter is simple...one line jesting....and I fear some of you are past that point.
I don't expect to be saluted....never did....that was the beauty of being an old time Warrant Officer...and not being in any way associated with the US Army...I don't give a **** who gets saluted or not. If you read back over the posts....you will see that is my position and the only time I suggested British Enlisted and Non-Commissioned officers should salute American Army Warrant Officers was out of a sense of military courtesy and discipline. What you Teabags think about "Sceptic" ranks matters not a wit.
I would suggest if you cannot accept the fact the American Warrant Officer is a full fledged card carrying member of the Officers Mess then you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
I can assure you that doubt the fact that Warrants are officers....and thus entitled to the fullest extent of military courtesy....that if one of my Warrants was refused entrance to your Officers Mess....I would take my aircraft and crew and piss off to the nearest pub and let your OC explain to his chain of command why that happened.
Being an old time Warrant Officer....we learned not to suffer fools well. Anyone that persists in suggesting they would not extend and demand the proper military courtesy as a serving military officer is an idiot.
Skip the banter chaps...banter is simple...one line jesting....and I fear some of you are past that point.
Vortex....read the post...it clearly said equivalent in pay and allowances....not rank. CW5's are junior in rank to 2nd Lt's.
ZH...you finally got part of it right....junior in rank to all other officers....the newest 2nd Lt outranks a CW5 in our rank structure.
But do not confuse Rank with horsepower....I can assure you a CW5 has a lot more horsepower than a 2nd Lt.
But do not confuse Rank with horsepower....I can assure you a CW5 has a lot more horsepower than a 2nd Lt.
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Is it now appropriate to ask where and how midshipmen fit into all of this?
They are members of the Officers Mess but are not commissioned. I believe they hold officer status but exist at the bottom of the ladder and are not saluted by the ranks/ratings.
As I've said before, I accord US WO1 - CW5 the respect that goes with their experience and time in service (less saluting). Surely this is a courtesy that is easily offered by true professionals. I have no problems with the US deciding that they should be members of the 'officer class'. The use of the CW rank allows a more recognisable differentiation between those of us who have completed generalist commissioning courses and those who have greater responsibilities and experience in technical fields, such as specialist aircrew.
This is the way it is. How hard is it to get on with life and worry about more pressing matters?
They are members of the Officers Mess but are not commissioned. I believe they hold officer status but exist at the bottom of the ladder and are not saluted by the ranks/ratings.
As I've said before, I accord US WO1 - CW5 the respect that goes with their experience and time in service (less saluting). Surely this is a courtesy that is easily offered by true professionals. I have no problems with the US deciding that they should be members of the 'officer class'. The use of the CW rank allows a more recognisable differentiation between those of us who have completed generalist commissioning courses and those who have greater responsibilities and experience in technical fields, such as specialist aircrew.
This is the way it is. How hard is it to get on with life and worry about more pressing matters?