US Army Warrants
Beag's
Next time you think you know about the USMC, let me know.
I wouldn't want to piss off any CWO, that said I out ranked them. They were the resident experts in their field and a tremendous source of guidance, leadership and practical knowledge. Mean sumbitches, some of 'em.
Next time you think you know about the USMC, let me know.
I wouldn't want to piss off any CWO, that said I out ranked them. They were the resident experts in their field and a tremendous source of guidance, leadership and practical knowledge. Mean sumbitches, some of 'em.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Again, my contention is that a commissioned officer is a commissioned officer and deserves the respect of that appointment even if your service has no equivalent. Having similiar names does not make U.S. and U.K. Warrant Officers equivalent. Giving respect where it is due and acknowledging differences in service regulations, customs and cultures is a sign of professionalism. Burying your head in the sand because something is different from your own is not.
Please state where it is laid down that the members of of the armed service of one nation must pay compliments to the officers of an other nation. Any officlal source will do. In the absence of such it is a curtesy.
Please state where it is laid down that the members of of the armed service of one nation must pay compliments to the officers of an other nation. Any officlal source will do. In the absence of such it is a curtesy.
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ZH875 said:
Still bringing constructive arguements to the table I see.
The answer to that question has been decided by people far above either one of us in the military food chain. Just because the all knowing such as yourself do not see the need does not mean the need is not there. Warrant Officers seemed to be working just fine within the U.S. military. Sorry it does not match your British sense of what is proper and right.
ORAC said:
So it is now your arguement that any saluting or other signs of respect are not needed at all between members of different countries. As a U.S. Navy Commander I can just ignore a British Navy Admiral?
Still trying to work out the purpose of the CW, is it because most enlisted men is a sergeant of some discription, and the officers are no good, they have to bring in a demigod to control everything.
If most armed forces do not need them, then please explain why the US army needs them.
If most armed forces do not need them, then please explain why the US army needs them.
The answer to that question has been decided by people far above either one of us in the military food chain. Just because the all knowing such as yourself do not see the need does not mean the need is not there. Warrant Officers seemed to be working just fine within the U.S. military. Sorry it does not match your British sense of what is proper and right.
ORAC said:
Please state where it is laid down that the members of of the armed service of one nation must pay compliments to the officers of an other nation. Any officlal source will do. In the absence of such it is a curtesy.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
No argument, just taking it back to basics and repeating your own question from the last page, namely, Give me a reference, an official web page or something that says this. Goose for the gander and all that. One presumes one can find an official source?
If not, I repeat that saluting members of the armed forces of other nations is a curtesy or as laid down in an official agreement. If one exists, please cite it.
As an aside, would you expect a US naval rating to salute a UK coastguard officer? If not, why not, if so why? Would you expect a UK naval rating to salute a US coastguard officer, If not, why not, if so why?
As an a side:
"It is a widely-believed myth that in the United States military all personnel are required to initiate a salute to a Medal of Honor recipient, regardless of rank. Nothing in United States military regulations relates specifically to the Medal of Honor except for its order of precedence on the uniform. Custom, however, does dictate that a general should salute a private if the private has the Medal of Honor. In the United Kingdom, a similar fiction attaches to holders of the Victoria Cross."
I would salute, either, as a mark of respect, not as an obligation.....
If not, I repeat that saluting members of the armed forces of other nations is a curtesy or as laid down in an official agreement. If one exists, please cite it.
As an aside, would you expect a US naval rating to salute a UK coastguard officer? If not, why not, if so why? Would you expect a UK naval rating to salute a US coastguard officer, If not, why not, if so why?
As an a side:
"It is a widely-believed myth that in the United States military all personnel are required to initiate a salute to a Medal of Honor recipient, regardless of rank. Nothing in United States military regulations relates specifically to the Medal of Honor except for its order of precedence on the uniform. Custom, however, does dictate that a general should salute a private if the private has the Medal of Honor. In the United Kingdom, a similar fiction attaches to holders of the Victoria Cross."
I would salute, either, as a mark of respect, not as an obligation.....
Last edited by ORAC; 18th Sep 2005 at 20:22.
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ORAC wrote:
As I am retired I do not have official resources available. I originally asked for an official reference because everybody was citing an unofficial website. I too cited that unofficial website to make my rebuttal.
I do know it is taught at all levels of initial training in the U.S. that you are to provide proper military courtesy to all officers senior to you regardless of service or country. This does not mean you obey their orders if they are not part of your chain of command. This means addressing them respectfully and rendering salutes. I had this training at basic as an Army Private and at OCS as a Navy officer candidate.
As far as your Coast Guard question - if the Coast Guard is considered one of the armed forces of the U.K., than yes a U.S. enlisted sailor would salute him. And yes, I would expect a Royal Navy sailor to salute a U.S. Coast Guard officer as he is a member of the U.S. armed forces.
The are 7 branches of service within the U.S. Armed Forces: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, NOAA (National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration) and the USPHS (U.S. Public Health Service). NOAA & USPHS are unique in that they only have commissioned officers. They all hold military and Geneva Convention identification cards. In war, NOAA would provide the weather services such as the stations in Greenland in WW2. The USPHS would obviously care for the wounded. In you ever wondered why the Surgeon General of the U.S. always appears in an Admiral's uniform, this is why. He is an Admiral in the USPHS. Both the USPHS and NOAA use naval ranks and uniforms. In fact, unless you were to recognize the different crest on their uniform hat, you would never know that they were not Navy.
No argument, just taking it back to basics and repeating your own question from the last page, namely, Give me a reference, an official web page or something that says this. Goose for the gander and all that. One presumes one can find an official source?
If not, I repeat that saluting members of the armed forces of other nations is a curtesy or as laid down in an official agreement. If one exists, please cite it.
As an aside, would you expect a US naval rating to salute a UK coastguard officer? If not, why not, if so why? Would you expect a UK naval rating to salute a US coastguard officer, If not, why not, if so why?
If not, I repeat that saluting members of the armed forces of other nations is a curtesy or as laid down in an official agreement. If one exists, please cite it.
As an aside, would you expect a US naval rating to salute a UK coastguard officer? If not, why not, if so why? Would you expect a UK naval rating to salute a US coastguard officer, If not, why not, if so why?
I do know it is taught at all levels of initial training in the U.S. that you are to provide proper military courtesy to all officers senior to you regardless of service or country. This does not mean you obey their orders if they are not part of your chain of command. This means addressing them respectfully and rendering salutes. I had this training at basic as an Army Private and at OCS as a Navy officer candidate.
As far as your Coast Guard question - if the Coast Guard is considered one of the armed forces of the U.K., than yes a U.S. enlisted sailor would salute him. And yes, I would expect a Royal Navy sailor to salute a U.S. Coast Guard officer as he is a member of the U.S. armed forces.
The are 7 branches of service within the U.S. Armed Forces: Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, NOAA (National Oceanic & Atmospheric Administration) and the USPHS (U.S. Public Health Service). NOAA & USPHS are unique in that they only have commissioned officers. They all hold military and Geneva Convention identification cards. In war, NOAA would provide the weather services such as the stations in Greenland in WW2. The USPHS would obviously care for the wounded. In you ever wondered why the Surgeon General of the U.S. always appears in an Admiral's uniform, this is why. He is an Admiral in the USPHS. Both the USPHS and NOAA use naval ranks and uniforms. In fact, unless you were to recognize the different crest on their uniform hat, you would never know that they were not Navy.
ORAC,
There is a world of difference between Tradition and Myth. Saluting Medal of Honor or Victoria Cross holders suggests respect for valor amongst military persons.
That is what this whole thread is really about....respect between military persons and tradition....none of which "requires" a written mandate somewhere in a manual or archive of orders. There are some things one does....simply because it is the done thing....and to do otherwise is not acceptable.
Shame some folks have trouble accepting those simple unwritten parts of a code of conduct that binds our individual military forces together and makes being a Soldier, Airman, Sailor,or Marine such an important source of strength in times of need.
I don't know about you but everytime I have been in the presence of Medal of Honor recipients I have seen only grace and humility and a man that is quick to suggest he was only doing his duty and that he was wearing the Medal for others who were also justly deserving.
It would be no surprise to me that holders of the Victoria Cross are exactly the same.
Seems we could all learn something from them.
There is a world of difference between Tradition and Myth. Saluting Medal of Honor or Victoria Cross holders suggests respect for valor amongst military persons.
That is what this whole thread is really about....respect between military persons and tradition....none of which "requires" a written mandate somewhere in a manual or archive of orders. There are some things one does....simply because it is the done thing....and to do otherwise is not acceptable.
Shame some folks have trouble accepting those simple unwritten parts of a code of conduct that binds our individual military forces together and makes being a Soldier, Airman, Sailor,or Marine such an important source of strength in times of need.
I don't know about you but everytime I have been in the presence of Medal of Honor recipients I have seen only grace and humility and a man that is quick to suggest he was only doing his duty and that he was wearing the Medal for others who were also justly deserving.
It would be no surprise to me that holders of the Victoria Cross are exactly the same.
Seems we could all learn something from them.
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Not to curtail all the fun everyone is having with this thread , but I just finished a three-year assignment at SHAPE and can tell you what the "normal practice" is in regard to saluting. Saluting is done amongst ones own country...and that's about it. Saluting between individuals of other countries does happen...as a matter of fact, the Brits and Germans were always very kind to extend that courtesy to me and I respectfully did the same in return; but as far as I know it wasn't required. If someone from another country saluted a US warrant officer, it was done out of respect, not requirement.
With 26 nations it would be near impossible to remember the rank structure for every country...
Cheers! M2
With 26 nations it would be near impossible to remember the rank structure for every country...
Cheers! M2
Westie,
You seemed to have tinkled in Beag's tea cup.....oh, my dear! Whatever shall we do?
Remember Beags....we come from a race of people that tried to make salt water tea...one cannot expect too much from us.
You seemed to have tinkled in Beag's tea cup.....oh, my dear! Whatever shall we do?
Remember Beags....we come from a race of people that tried to make salt water tea...one cannot expect too much from us.
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Great thread.
So many bees...so many bonnets...
but I wonder, could someone enlighten me..
During my officer training at RAF cranwell, I was told that I should salute when entering a WO's office. (Don't remember who told me, I wasn't usually awake during CESR!) This I did throughout 21 years of service.
Had I misunderstood or was I correct in saluting a non-commisioned rank?
Huge
So many bees...so many bonnets...
but I wonder, could someone enlighten me..
During my officer training at RAF cranwell, I was told that I should salute when entering a WO's office. (Don't remember who told me, I wasn't usually awake during CESR!) This I did throughout 21 years of service.
Had I misunderstood or was I correct in saluting a non-commisioned rank?
Huge
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Many years ago, a Flight Sergeant, RAF, was walking past an RAF Sqn Ldr, who was absorbed in looking somewhere else. Slinging a smart salute, the FS called out "I'm saluting you, sir." To which the Sqn Ldr replied, "And so you should, Flight Sergeant, So you should."
I remember, as an ATC cadet, a bus conductor being saluted by a passing squad. Scared the hell out of him.
I remember, as an ATC cadet, a bus conductor being saluted by a passing squad. Scared the hell out of him.
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Hi there Huge
That would explain why they have so much contempt for the rest of us!
IIRC (though I too slept through the CESR lectures (both times!))
the polite thing is to salute when entering another commissioned officer's office, irrespective of rank - this would seem to exclude the WOs (including the t*sser who started this thread). Obviously, in my case whether or not to salute entering the JO's office is a relatively recent question - I err on the side of caution.
I am sure others will have views, and there may even be someone out there who understands what it all means.
As for the Army and RN, I have no doubt they have completely differing (but equally valid) views about this.
The most important thing about all of this is that you are not saluting the individual, but the commission.
Hope all's well with you. Fancy an AVO slot at Scampton?
STH
That would explain why they have so much contempt for the rest of us!
IIRC (though I too slept through the CESR lectures (both times!))
the polite thing is to salute when entering another commissioned officer's office, irrespective of rank - this would seem to exclude the WOs (including the t*sser who started this thread). Obviously, in my case whether or not to salute entering the JO's office is a relatively recent question - I err on the side of caution.
I am sure others will have views, and there may even be someone out there who understands what it all means.
As for the Army and RN, I have no doubt they have completely differing (but equally valid) views about this.
The most important thing about all of this is that you are not saluting the individual, but the commission.
Hope all's well with you. Fancy an AVO slot at Scampton?
STH
Last edited by SirToppamHat; 19th Sep 2005 at 13:59.
SASless - indeed, the salt water tea was one of your earlier attempts at vile and tasteless beverages.
Later came Budweiser and Cold Duck....
I will concede, though, that any USMC uniform beats the heck out of the awful 'Thunderbird' uniform jacket we had in the 1970s. Named after a British TV puppet (or rather, 'supermarionette') sci-fi show, not the USAF Aerial Demonstration Team!
I was once wearing the damn thing whilst waiting for someone at Oxford railway station. At least 2 old dears thought I was a railway porter! And no, I didn't get any tips!
Later came Budweiser and Cold Duck....
I will concede, though, that any USMC uniform beats the heck out of the awful 'Thunderbird' uniform jacket we had in the 1970s. Named after a British TV puppet (or rather, 'supermarionette') sci-fi show, not the USAF Aerial Demonstration Team!
I was once wearing the damn thing whilst waiting for someone at Oxford railway station. At least 2 old dears thought I was a railway porter! And no, I didn't get any tips!
Seems our new WO has found a new fishing hole....and the suckers are biting up a storm too!
Just proves they are a low and vile lot....US Army Warrant Officers....heheheheheheh!
Just proves they are a low and vile lot....US Army Warrant Officers....heheheheheheh!
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New WO1
No, we are not squirming, we are just gobsmacked that anyone (Brit or Septic) could be so up themselves as to ask such a self-obsessed question. In short, I would not give you (personally, not all WOs) the time of day, let alone a salute! Quite frankly, US WOs will be treated by me in exactly the same way as UK WOs; no salute, due respect to the rank and experience, and they will be called "Mr" by officers.
I too have socialised with a CW3 in the Officers' Mess (not Club!!!!) and have found him to be a thoroughly nice guy. However, I my humble opinion, he is still a WO and should not be there; his membership was only down to the dogged insistence of the US Officers on base. The Officers' Mess is for Officers and (the yanks may be a little suprised) we actually have a WO and SNCOs Mess for (you guessed it) the WOs and SNCOs.
As a little aside, Mr Pickle used to be an "other rank" who once went on a trip to the good 'ole US of A. Upon arrival, and being the first one off the Nimrod, I was suprised (as a Senior Aircraftman) to be addressed by a Sergeant First Class (or so it seemed) as "Sir" and asked if I "would like the trash taken off" although I am junior to her by several ranks!! Apart from telling her that the Aircrew could make their own way off, I was a little taken aback. If you don't understand our ranks, how can we be expected to understand yours?
I too have socialised with a CW3 in the Officers' Mess (not Club!!!!) and have found him to be a thoroughly nice guy. However, I my humble opinion, he is still a WO and should not be there; his membership was only down to the dogged insistence of the US Officers on base. The Officers' Mess is for Officers and (the yanks may be a little suprised) we actually have a WO and SNCOs Mess for (you guessed it) the WOs and SNCOs.
As a little aside, Mr Pickle used to be an "other rank" who once went on a trip to the good 'ole US of A. Upon arrival, and being the first one off the Nimrod, I was suprised (as a Senior Aircraftman) to be addressed by a Sergeant First Class (or so it seemed) as "Sir" and asked if I "would like the trash taken off" although I am junior to her by several ranks!! Apart from telling her that the Aircrew could make their own way off, I was a little taken aback. If you don't understand our ranks, how can we be expected to understand yours?