US Army Warrants

[Argus]

Major Mad Max

I didn't even know Austria had a navy

My dear chap, you've obviously never been inflicted with "The Sound of Music", with the von Trapp brats, sired by the gruff Baron von Trapp, who had apparently attained the rank of Captain in the Austrian Navy around the time of the ascent of Herr Schicklgruber.

And if memory serves me correctly, in the mid 19th Century, an Austrian Fleet paid a visit to Australia as part of a Hapsburg "show the flag" exercise in the Antipodes. The journals of various junior officers (not warrant officers as I recall) were on display in a Vienna museum in the late 1980s.

You really should get out more!

[New_WO1]

HAL Pilot

It takes a fellow American to talk sense!

I won't be addressing any British Warrant as 'Sir'!

[BEagle]

New_WO1,

The following link gives some insight into equivalent rank status:

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com..._officer_ranks

Particularly:

A Warrant Officer in UK service is a senior non-commissioned rank not comparable to the various grades of Warrant Officer in the US, although holding the Queen's Warrant and with certain privileges similar to those of officers. In the Army and Royal Marines, they are referred to by their appointment, of which there are many (for example, Regimental Sergeant Major is a WO1 appointment). The US rank is held by single track career specialists (ranking between Enlisted Ranks and 2nd Lieutenant) and have no NATO equivalent. An RN Warrant Officer Class 1 incorporated the former rank of Fleet Chief Petty Officer.

So, as neither fish nor fowl, it is perhaps hardly any wonder that your status is a mystery to the rest of NATO?

[Twonston Pickle]

Spot on BEags,

The site, when directed to the US Army Officer rank insiginia, fails to include CWOs, as does the US Army enlisted rank insignia. The US Army does not appear that proud of their "Officer" status. All supports the argument that they "fall between the cracks" so to speak.

[MajorMadMax]

Argus

Thanks, maybe I should go out more; but if that means being inflicted, maybe I shouldn't...

And if we are quoting rank charts, maybe we should look at the one from the official US Army web site! Also, here is the official US Army Warrant Officer Program web site.

Enjoy!

Cheers! M2

[Safeware]

Major Mad Max,

Slightly off thread, but something I've always wondered. (well, not always). If you are Major Mad Max, why are you M2? You seem to be an M short.



sw

[MajorMadMax]

Since you asked...

It is because I haven't always been a major (it only seems that way). I used to be Capt M2, but despite my best efforts I was promoted. The 'M2' portion has two origins...the first being a love of motorcycles, and the second being my real name is the same as a US filmmaker of dubious distinction. Much like the Michael Bolton character in Office Space, I needed a way to "distance" myself from that individual...

Samir: No one in this country can ever pronounce my name right. It's not that hard: Samir Na-gheen-an-a-jar. Nagheenanajar.
Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.
Samir: You know there's nothing wrong with that name.
Michael Bolton: There was nothing wrong with it... until I was about 12 years old and that no-talent ass clown became famous and started winning Grammys.
Samir: Hmm... well why don't you just go by Mike instead of Michael?
Michael Bolton: No way. Why should I change? He's the one who sucks.

Cheers! M2

[lasernigel]

A young Second Lieutenant approaches the crusty old CSM and asked about the origin of the commissioned officer insignias.
The CSM replied, "It's history and tradition ... First we give you a gold bar representing that you are very valuable and also malleable. The silver bar also represents significant value, but is less malleable. When you make Captain, your value doubles, hence the two silver bars. As a Colonel you soar over military masses, hence the eagle. As a General, you are, obviously, a star. Does that answer your question?"
"Yes," said the Second Lieutenant, "but what about Majors and Lieutenant Colonels?"
"That goes waaaay back in history ... to the Garden of Eden even. You see we 've always covered our pricks with leaves."


Say no more!!!

[itsallgonewrong]

HAL Pilot and New_WO1

If I promise to salute you if I ever See you will You please f*ck off and go and rattle this $hit to your american buddies.

Thanks

[Bing]

M2, What would you do with a million dollars?

[Ray Dahvectac]

Hasn't this thread been round more times than a break dancer on ecstasy?

If the first post wasn't a wind-up anyway, the latest missives by the uncommissioned WO1 cannot be anything else.

Should we not now agree to let the whole thing die, preferably a swift and painful death?

[MajorMadMax]

M2, What would you do with a million dollars?

Two chicks at the same time!

Cheers! M2

[ZH875]

What would you do for a million dollars?

I would salute New_WO1

[honiton]

HAL Pilot said:

Why should he address them as Sir? He's an officer and they are NCOs. You do not want to recognize his position but you want him to demote himself and recognize a NCO as a senior?

For a start, Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are Warrant Officers not NCOs. Secondly our young friend should defer to the experience of someone who hasn't had his rank handed to him on a plate

[Argus]

HAL Pilot

One of the indicia of mateship is the capacity to offer old friends frank and fearless advice.

And your insistence that US warrant officers be accorded the privileges of commissioned rank in other jurisdictions, when your hosts don’t recognise them as such, is surely deserving of a whisper in your shell like, from those mates well placed to proffer guidance and counsel in an avuncular manner.

Irrespective of what you were taught at Annapolis, the rest of the world beyond the US doesn’t march to the beat of John Phillip Souza, McDonalds, Seinfeld, Mom’s apple pie, George W Bush, Wal-Mart and the demands of New_WO1.

Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, most European and British Warrant Officers hold a unique and distinct place in the allied military order of precedence. Uncle Sam may have a different view. But with great respect, Uncle Sam’s view is only binding on Uncle Sam. The rest of us see the world, and the precedence of warrant officers, differently. You really need to understand that, accept it and move on.

In such a situation of diverging views and your intransigence, some might proffer profanities about your ancestry and seeming lack of empathy for allies. I can’t possibly comment on that. But, with the advice that only old friends can give, and with the greatest of respect, I suggest that you look beyond the ambit of the instant warrant officer, and see things in a broader perspective.

[Point0Five]

For a start, Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are Warrant Officers not NCOs. Secondly our young friend should defer to the experience of someone who hasn't had his rank handed to him on a plate

That's the funny thing about life experience, it's a default funtion of living, everybody accumulates it. What I care about is people demostrating that they've learned somthing from it.

There is a reason why military organisations employ people for their different skill sets, and it is because of what they have to offer, not this nonsense of achieving promotion through attrition.
Pull your head in and recongise that you work in a team to deliver results for the good of your nation, and not to pander to your ego-centric view of the world. How does completing secondary school, achieving a university degree and being selected for an Officer position in the Air Force equate to having rank handed over "on a plate"?

[HAL Pilot]

I thought I was going to quit this thread, but like a moth to a flame, I keep getting drawn back....

honiton said:

For a start, Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are Warrant Officers not NCOs. Secondly our young friend should defer to the experience of someone who hasn't had his rank handed to him on a plate

First, it has been clearly established by the various links and references quoted in this thread that British WOs are indeed senior NCOs. Second, except for the Army WO pilots, all other WOs in the U.S. were NCOs who received their WO ranks through years of enlisted service and recognition of their skills and leadership. This includes Army WO1s who are not pilots. Your Regimental Sergeant Majors and Station Warrant Officers are no different than our Command Sergeant Majors (USA), Command Chief Master Sergeants (USAF), Master Gunnery Sergeants (USMC) and Command Master Chiefs (USN). They all rank below WOs and have no problem showing the WOs proper military courtesies.

Argus said:

And your insistence that US warrant officers be accorded the privileges of commissioned rank in other jurisdictions, when your hosts don’t recognise them as such....Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, most European and British Warrant Officers hold a unique and distinct place in the allied military order of precedence. Uncle Sam may have a different view. But with great respect, Uncle Sam’s view is only binding on Uncle Sam. The rest of us see the world, and the precedence of warrant officers, differently. You really need to understand that, accept it and move on.

You as an individual members of the U.K. military might not recognize their status, but your government and military hierarchy do. The U.S. military would not accept their officers being treated as enlisted any more than your military would. Individual instances might slip by, but these would be the exception rather than the norm. If your military establishment (rather than individuals) treated our WOs as enlisted, you would see formal complaints at the highest levels. Where are they? I think it is you who can not accept differences in military structures and cultures.

Argus said:

Irrespective of what you were taught at Annapolis, the rest of the world beyond the US doesn’t march to the beat of John Phillip Souza, McDonalds, Seinfeld, Mom’s apple pie, George W Bush, Wal-Mart and the demands of New_WO1.

And irrepective of the British sense of propriety and class distinction, the world hasn't marched to your tune since the late 1800s either.

Argus said:

instant warrant officer...seeming lack of empathy for allies....see things in a broader perspective

Again only the Army pilot WO1s are instant warrant officers. The rest (and majority) have years of prior service. Do you recognize the position and authority of a 2nd Lieutenant or Ensign? Army Warrant Officer Candidate School is the same length as the other U.S. Officer Candidate Schools. Therefore are not the U.S. O1s who came from OCS without any other prior service instant officers? Should we not recognize any officers who received their commissions any way other than the approved British way? Maybe it is you who needs a broader perspective. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong. Lack of empathy? I think you have our roles reversed here. I respect your system, history, culture and traditions - you don't respect ours.

[Echo 5]

" And irrepective of the British sense of propriety and class distinction, the world hasn't marched to the tune of the your tune since the late 1800s either. "

Nor have we lost a war or had a serious arse kicking either as I recall..... but could be wrong. No doubt some jumped up New_WO1 will correct me.

[New_WO1]

HAL Pilot

Checkmate

[The Rocket]

I respect your system, history, culture and traditions - you don't respect ours.

Ah, That's where the confusion lies. I understand now.

You see, the reason you feel we are not respecting your history and traditions old bean, is because you don't really have any, do you?

Stroll on......