Why is the RAF obsessed with status??

[round&round]

Having taken a general overview of Pprune and the RAF at large, I can't help but feel that we are an organization that is obsessed by status. A considerable number of comments here involve an element of branch/role/ac snobbery. I know much of this is light banter but there is, nevertheless, an unmistakable trend.

Why is at that Harrier pilots look down on other FJ pilots, who then look down on ME pilots. All the pilots look down on Navs who in turn think that AE's are lesser beings. Anyone who flys thinks their superior to anyone who doesn't so the ground trades have a hierarchy all of there own. At the bottom of this imaginary ladder I reckon sit Movers or the RAF Police. Society is far flatter now in terms of status, perhaps because footballer and plumbers earn so much, so why is the RAF still obsessed? Are we really such a shallow bunch that we cannot appreciate each others worth??? Just a personnal observation, but there you go.

[Bo Nalls]

Guess you must be a mover or a plod then

[5 Forward 6 Back]

On the flying side, surely it's because you're assessed all the time? Get better scores, go jets. Get better scores, go Harrier; by definition, those on other jets or other streams aren't as good?

Might not be the truth (not on front line; don't hit me) but that certainly seems to be the perception.

[WorkingHard]

R&R I believe this goes back a long long way and is I am afraid just a small mirror of the society that used to exist in England. The preservation of this hierarchy still exists because so many promotions or selection criteria are not always based on ability. Couple that with the perception that the level of competence and/or intelligence is judged by the badges of rank and you have your answer. You need only look at the seemingly crass decisions that are made on a daily basis and no one dares to challenge them to see that this still works.

[FFP]

I would agree. There does seem to be a hierachy and a false one at that. I remember being at Valley and backseating a trip before starting my course. When asked by a guy who flew Harriers what I wanted to fly, I relpied with GR4`s. When he asked why I was only aspiring to be second best, I started to re think things as this was the kind of person I was going to spend my life working with.

Now that guy was an arse. No doubt. On the other hand I`ve worked with people of all trades and some of the Navs , Air Engineers, Movers and Police that you mention have more personality, social skills and approachablility (?) in their little fingers than some of those guys. But you do get Harrier mates who as well as being extremely good pilots are bloody nice blokes. They are the ones I really hate

There is no doubt in my opinion that the FJ environment breeds that attitude, a somewhat "sorry your not flying what I am" and it isn`t until you are away from it that you realise it. I have many friends that couldn`t give 2 sh!t$ what I do in the RAF and to be with them is 10 times better than the mess environment.

It also sounds a silly thing to say but after going through the trg system and wanting to fly all my life, I realise that flying isn`t the be all and end all. I see a lot of people to whom the RAF and flying is everything. A narrow view on life and dangerous for when it may all go wrong.

I think there`s nothing better than sitting on a flight deck with as many people as you can fit on it, bantering because you know it is banter and talking about everything and anything other than flying (yes, I know you are actually flying at the time but you know what I mean )

I also think that the only people who get wound up by the perceived hierachy are those that believe in it so much that they think the aren`t at the top !!!!

To summarise, I don`t care what you do. I think there are many FJ aircrew who aren`t happy and many police/movers who couldn`t be happier. Where`s the hierachy now ?

[Mr C Hinecap]

As a self confessed dweller near the bottom of the pond (quite happy thanks) I have experienced much of this elitism.
Every trade & Branch looks upon the rest as not good enough. It is banter & there are many things we don't understand of each others work, so we banter. There are these differences because different jobs require different skills/attitudes/aptitudes. You get the 'top down' view here because it is largely an aircrew forum. Us scum are here as interested parties who seek knowledge and a damn good banter. I think there are put-downs for pretty much every Branch & Trade. My fave from a Ginger Beer brother:
'You can train a monkey to ride a bike, but you'll never train him to fix it!'

I understand much of the aircrew superiority - seriously! I'd probably have a different view of the world if someone paid me to strap twenty million quids worth of the biggest boy's toy to my ar$e and go punch holes in the sky, only to land, throw the keys to a bloke, tell him what needs tweaking and head for tea & medals! Glib but makes for a different view on things.

They may look down on me, but they'll never find me looking up at them.

[MobiusTrip]

Genuinely looking down upon those 'below' (however you define that) you is a symptom of an over inflated sense of self importance/pride or whatever you wish to call it.

I shamefully admit to being one of 'those' in my younger years (much younger!). I think it is mainly instilled in pilots by the system - if enough dudes keep going on about how much better their group (which you are a part of) is than others, then it can sort of subliminally work into your attitude.

I think as you get older and have 'been there' a bit, that the big (true) picture comes into view. Some people just don't WANT to do the job we do, some people just CAN'T - I don't think it matters, I really don't. I am grateful that I enjoy my job, but however cool it is, it doesn't make me better than anyone else - unless, of course, I am on pint number 8 and ladies are present :-)


Right, back to the beach and my cocktail.... oh wait....

MT

[Vage Rot]

I agree with all that has gone before in this thread and can offer a reason for the snobbery and arrogance - not and excuse, just a reason - Going to take some grief for this but here goes!

As FJ or helo or multi aircrew, in war you are likely to have to fly into a situation where you are probably not going to come home.

1. If you didn't believe in your own ability then you wouldn't do it - there's the reason for single seat arrogance!

2. If you didn't believe you were the best then you wouldn't do it - there's everyone elses' reason!

If you had an annual competition between blanket stackers as to who could stack the most/fastest/best then the winner would be a little proud and arrogant - and rightly so, it's a competition. We all fought hard in the competition to become aircrew and we have a right to be proud that we've done it. Some go too far-granted but not very many make it so why not be proud. If others envy then they can follow - not bitch.

I never look down on anyone, everyone has a place and a role but if someone isn't happy in their role then change it - don't moan.

Unfortunately, there's not enough flex for everyone to get pissed, poke fingers and have a laugh anymore - THAT was the benefit of Cheap Beer, Sqn barrels, happy hour, all ranks clubs etc!

You cant be 100% PC if your job is to kill people - lets not forget that is our job!

[MobiusTrip]

Vage,

I do believe there is a place for pride - pride in your sqn, pride in your achievements. What I was referring to was an 'over inflated' sense of pride.

MT

[Stray Fin]

It is only human to have a competitive edge, and it is, also, a necessity of the job to believe in one's own ability.
However, I have to agree with WorkingHard - within our ranks there is an arrogance which I believe is more deep-seated than just an over-zealous belief in one's own capabilities. Having seen aircrew from a fair number of other nations at work, and having spent most of my life abroad, I do believe that the view held by many aircrew in the UK of others, particularly ground trades, lies within the class system that this nation has attempted to rid itself of.
I am aware that there is a large percentage of RAF aircrew who come from modest backgrounds, so it is can no longer be linked to “birthrights”, but the mentality still lingers.
Unfortunately, this has the result of ground trades resenting aircrew, regardless of how “normal” you might be. And having seen how some of us “master-race” talk to them, I’m not surprised. Surely we can’t be surprised at the lack of cohesion between trades, when this perceived differential exists.
This will not entirely explain the arrogance of Harrier mates, and if this is indeed the root of arrogance towards the ground-trades, it will not be resolved in the near future.

[Vage Rot]

Stary F

Couldn't agree more. Avery good friend of mine was posted to a FJ station recently. quote "If i'd met this lot first I'd have thought you were all ******s!"

I fear it's the same situation as the squaddies night out. You cant tell somebody he's the best, train him to fight and not give a sh1t about his own safety then expect him to go out and not fight over a girl. Ditto aircrew - we're told from day one that we're the best, fortunately, some of us are human and when the ground crew get to know you they lighten up and realise that not everyone with a green bag is a to55er.

I'm fortunate, was a back end captain of a multi-engine ac - regular dets with ground crew aboard and had a top, relaxed time. was just playing devil's advocate and giving the reasons as perceived by me!

[hoofhearted]

I'm afraid it all boils down to the monkeys climbing a tree syndrome.
When you're at the top looking down, all you can see is smiling faces.
When you're at the bottom looking up, all you can see is ar@e-holes.

We're all on the same team and if ever you find that your head is stuck too far up somewhere it shouldn't be, try reading "First Light" by Geoffrey Wellum. A very brave man, a great pilot and dare I say, a gentleman.

Master race, my

[NURSE]

I do love the RAF's snobbery it makes the army seem 'normal'.

Had a RAF student working with me a few years back who went on about Traditions in the RAF one of the WO's put it beautifully. The Army and the Navy have been around for long enough to have traditions. The RAF on the other hand have habits that in 100-200 years may become traditions.

[Blacksheep]

S'funny you should mention Geoff Wellum, hoof,

Read the captions to the photos and you'll see his fellow pilots Titch and Ginge and Sailor, good old Bob and Sergeant This and Flight Sergeant That. His own ground crew do have knicknames but I doubt if he knew the first names of anyone else's or those on 2nd line Servicing. All groundcrew conversation is written down in "Cockney" or northern oik. It was another world, another time and nothing wrong with that; its just the way it was. People from backgrounds like Geoff Wellum were blissfully unconscious of it.

Nevertheless, the traditional viewpoints linger on and probably nothing will ever change - it's already become part of the service's 'tradition' I'm afraid. I visited a Royal Navy ship in port locally and a Lieutenant in the marine engineering branch, was kind enough to conduct me around his combined home and workplace. I couldn't help noticing how this officer's relations, and indeed those of his fellow officers, with the crew members that we met during the tour, differed from those I experienced in the RAF and that, unchanged until today, now form the point under discussion.

I suppose the difference In the Royal Navy is that everyone is, as it were, in the same boat.

[Oggin Aviator]

I suppose the difference In the Royal Navy is that everyone is, as it were, in the same boat.

If you are serving at sea (not just limited to the RN these days) and you lose your ship, you lose your home.
If you are serving on an airbase, and it gets attacked, you don’t necessarily lose your home. Furthermore, most airfields the light blue fly into or out of on ops usually belong to friendly host nations, hence the ethos to be really worried about your immediate surroundings and hence respect your oppo, peer, superior or subordinate is diminished somewhat.
I would wager that should there be a real, direct military threat to the RAF's UK airfields (apart from the current political one) this ethos would change radically. It happened in 1940 and the Crabs did a bl00dy good job
In the RN it is truly a team effort, from the able seaman cheesing down () the berthing ropes to the Captain with the ultimate responsibility. Plus we all have to co exist in a metal box for vast amounts of time. (I'm sure the same sort of mutual respect occurs in your multi crew platforms such as the E3 and the Mighty Hunter).
But hey, keep smiling you are not all bad!

Oggin

[Mr C Hinecap]

Nurse: At least we can get into any job in the RAF without Daddy having done it first and/or having the proper breeding/school/private income/limited gene pool/quantity of Hampshire owned by family! We can also decide when we want to wear a jumper and not rely on a shouty man to let us know!

To further my point of strapping a big boy's toy to your ar$e etc. Any Multi or Rotary crew is mixed and operates that way constantly - a small team. FJ sqns seperate the operators from the rest. Why should a young jockey be concerned about others? Since he entered his professional training it seems to me to be a fairly introspective world. Your training & your job is about you and your ability. Those around you are the same with the same concerns. Once you reach Sqn Ldr, then you might have some (very few, well paid intelligent, motivated) people to look after. If you get to be a Sqn Cdr, most of the troops are looked after by SEngO. Not judging here - just putting forward a personal theory on things.
Those who enter the world at a different point usually have flights to look after. There you spend much of your time looking beyond your own arm span and usually at other human beings, perhaps not your equals in many things, but with a valuable job to do. We are all different, with different things to do. SACs look down on aircrew sometimes - give us a beer and we're all friends.

[The Swinging Monkey]

R & R

I think you are absolutely spot on in what you say, and whilst it does occur within the non commissioned aircrew world, it is without doubt a major problem amongst the Officer cadre.

My most satisfying moment on SAR was pulling a FJ pilot from the frozen north sea many years ago now. The guy, who by coincidence came from the same station as my big yellow egg whisk, was without doubt a complete to$$er. Despised by his fellow officers and probably by his own groundcrew, it was left to a humble FS airman aircrew to save this guys neck.

The morale of this story is that we are all experts in our own right and dicipline, and whenever I hear FJ crews telling everyone just how wonderful they are, I simply point out that one day, they will need the skill and expertise (and bravery to a degree) of a humble Sgt, FS etc to save their bacon. It usually shuts them up - for a while at least!

Regards and respect to ALL our SAR boys and girls - I wish above all else I was still with you but the years hath taken their toll on the old body, sadly.

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[Flap62]

There are elements creeping into this thread which represent exactly what is wrong with society. There is a perception in society (and certainly in the airline I now fly for) that we are all equal. Wrong. The Air Force is a meritocracy not a fluffy tree hugging liberal commune. Now that is not to say that anyone has the right to "look down" on anyone else. If that is the case then it reflects a flaw in the individual's character rather than an endemic problem in the pilot community.

Several uninformed contributors have highlighted the "arrogance" of harrier pilots. Having worked very happily in that atmosphere I can say that it is no worse and a lot better than many FJ environments for egos (F3 ocu for one!!). Yes there is arrogance but people have worked damned hard to get where they are. Why should they accept that someone who didn't have the same talent or who plain didn't put in as much effort in training now turns round and says "well you're no better than me really!"

As to the attitude of the flat-stoners who say "why should pilots look down on OC MT or whatever". The long and the short of it is that you could never do their job, but they can do yours if they had to (or OC catering or whatever). This means that not everyone is equal. Accept it, it's painful I know, but they are better than you.

FFP - you really do come across as a thoroughly repellant individual. It's apparent from your post (wanted GR4, now like a big flight deck) that you were chopped and have a chip on your shoulder. You weren't good enough, accept it and get on with your life. You would do well to remember that the role of the RAF is to fight. That means people putting their lives on the line whether it be FJ, multi, rotary, Regt, Officers, SNCOs and Airmen. The rest is support. If you enjoy waffling along bantering and don't care too much about flying I pray that some day you are never called upon to put yourself on the line. This job is for people who are serious and focused and I fear that the chip on your shoulder is probably matched by a yellow streak down your back.

[Huron Topp]

This job is for people who are serious and focused and I fear that the chip on your shoulder is probably matched by a yellow streak down your back.

Well Flaps, I believe with this comment, you may have sunk to an all-time low and really shown the attitude that created this thread. Give yer head a shake, man.

[Muppet Leader]

Cobblers.

It is all about breeding, accent, the old school tie and funny handshakes behind the bike shed.
My reasoning is below.

My parents split up when I was three years old, so I was brought up by my Mum and step Dad.
Step dad had a shoe shop, and mum worked for AV Roe & Sons.
I have a strong Northern accent.
Working class!

Visited real Dad every other weekend on the estate, with staff etc, and then got driven home by the chauffeur on a Sunday night.
Upper class!

Left school at 16 and joined up as an airman.
Worked through the system from LAC up through the ranks until discharge.
Gone through the rest of my life knowing my position / status, and got on with and enjoyed, every minute of it.
I’m working class.

Three years ago, my natural Father died. Me, only child. Guess where it all went?

I work now because I want to and I enjoy it, not because I have to.
All members of my household staff, and my family are on first name terms.
My family and I are no better that my staff.
They do the job they do because they want to.
If I could I could run the farms properly and profitably, I would do it myself.
I can’t, I know very little about it, so I employ several estate managers to do it for me.

We all have limits. We all have different limits in different fields.
Like one of my carpenters. Great lad, but can barely read and write. Get him down to the bookies, and he can work the odds out in his head as quick as a flash.

My point I suppose is this; you do what you do because you can.
It doesn’t mater if it is for the money, the prestige, the girls, or even if you actually enjoy your job, whatever it is you do.

The bits that you can’t, or are not capable of doing, someone else has to do for you.

Apart from wealth, we are all equal.