Why is the RAF obsessed with status??
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Well, well, well. Perhaps Flap WAS that short, arrogant get on Shifty Fix that I only met 3 times. Every time he was drunk in the Mess Bar and 3 times he told me it was a shame I was blunt. 3 times I restrained myself from dragging his scrawny neck outside. Perhaps there will be a fourth time with a different ending!
You are confusing talent and hard work too. I know some people that have talents, but if they are wasted it is a shame. I also know some people that have put every effort into making whatever rank they get to - be it SAC or whatever. I know that they are better people and better to have around.
I know I am not equal to any other man and I know the only equal right I have is to prove I am unequal to someone else. Why are aircrew 'better' than me? They are DIFFERENT! Different skills - different shape body (all short). Not all aircrew are
but do you have to make up for the good guys? Sounds like someone who drives a 'taxi' cos he was not good enough for single seat!
You are confusing talent and hard work too. I know some people that have talents, but if they are wasted it is a shame. I also know some people that have put every effort into making whatever rank they get to - be it SAC or whatever. I know that they are better people and better to have around.
I know I am not equal to any other man and I know the only equal right I have is to prove I am unequal to someone else. Why are aircrew 'better' than me? They are DIFFERENT! Different skills - different shape body (all short). Not all aircrew are
but do you have to make up for the good guys? Sounds like someone who drives a 'taxi' cos he was not good enough for single seat!
Mr C Hinecap
Go back and read my post. I specifically said that no one had the right to look down on anyone else.
I specifically did not comment on the groundcrew and specialists that fix highly complex kit. I mentioned OC MT because I could do their job. I could not do the specialists job and therefore did not mention it. If you look again you might also notice that when mentioning the primary role of the Air Force I did not place restrictions on a\c role or rank.
To reach front line FJ requires a great deal of talent and hard work and as such most people I know in that position would respect anyone who has a similar talent and work ethic, whatever their rank. That does not mean that they have to consider them equals.
You will find most people in front line FJ appointments have very little time for people with lots of talent who do little work or hard workers with little ability.
If you look back to the long summer of 1940 I am sure you will find no shortage of elitism and perhaps more than a touch of arrogance - it didn't seem to do them too much harm, although if the shop steward mentality often displayed on these pages had been in evidence then, I dare say I'd be slapping my lederhosen and breaking wind to the tune of Horst Wessel.
p.s. no idea what shifty fix means!
Go back and read my post. I specifically said that no one had the right to look down on anyone else.
I specifically did not comment on the groundcrew and specialists that fix highly complex kit. I mentioned OC MT because I could do their job. I could not do the specialists job and therefore did not mention it. If you look again you might also notice that when mentioning the primary role of the Air Force I did not place restrictions on a\c role or rank.
To reach front line FJ requires a great deal of talent and hard work and as such most people I know in that position would respect anyone who has a similar talent and work ethic, whatever their rank. That does not mean that they have to consider them equals.
You will find most people in front line FJ appointments have very little time for people with lots of talent who do little work or hard workers with little ability.
If you look back to the long summer of 1940 I am sure you will find no shortage of elitism and perhaps more than a touch of arrogance - it didn't seem to do them too much harm, although if the shop steward mentality often displayed on these pages had been in evidence then, I dare say I'd be slapping my lederhosen and breaking wind to the tune of Horst Wessel.
p.s. no idea what shifty fix means!
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Here we go . . . . . ..
Flaps62,
Good one. I haven't laughed so much in ages !
For a start, I fully agree with Huron Topp. To say that you've made yourself look like an arrogant, ill informed tw@t is putting it mildly. Not my words, but to be honest I couldn`t have put it better myself.
Firstly, to come up with the good old "chip on shoulder" and "yellow streak" without knowing me or what someone has done is a pretty ballsy move. Enough said. Don't need to justify myself to you.
Secondly, how you deduced all that crap from my pretty down the line post is genius ! You even say yourself some places have inflated egos. So does that mean you have a chip on your shoulder about them ? Course not.
I even stood up for Harrier pilots in my post !!! Maybe it was that comment about Harrier pilots that are also good lads that made you assume I hated them ? Didn't detect the sarcasm ? It seems that everyone else did.To put it plainly, chap, some of my mates fly Harriers and I admire that they have keep their egos firmly on the ground whilst being the aggressive front line pilot they are there to be.
Bet there wasn't a sqn w@nker when you were there ? That'd explain it.
And finally you seem to have missed the entire point of my post that it doesn`t matter at the end of the day what job you do !! So to say I need to get over it, lose the chip, realise that people lay their lives on the line etc etc is classic !!Go patronise someone else. My post clearly stated that my thoughts and feelings are above that narrow minded view of life.
Still not making sense ? Probably time to step back and chill out. You're going for the wrong guy.
And one final thing fella . Try posting in a manner and style that fits with the maturity and common sense someone in your position should have
Good one. I haven't laughed so much in ages !
For a start, I fully agree with Huron Topp. To say that you've made yourself look like an arrogant, ill informed tw@t is putting it mildly. Not my words, but to be honest I couldn`t have put it better myself.
Firstly, to come up with the good old "chip on shoulder" and "yellow streak" without knowing me or what someone has done is a pretty ballsy move. Enough said. Don't need to justify myself to you.
Secondly, how you deduced all that crap from my pretty down the line post is genius ! You even say yourself some places have inflated egos. So does that mean you have a chip on your shoulder about them ? Course not.
I even stood up for Harrier pilots in my post !!! Maybe it was that comment about Harrier pilots that are also good lads that made you assume I hated them ? Didn't detect the sarcasm ? It seems that everyone else did.To put it plainly, chap, some of my mates fly Harriers and I admire that they have keep their egos firmly on the ground whilst being the aggressive front line pilot they are there to be.
Bet there wasn't a sqn w@nker when you were there ? That'd explain it.
And finally you seem to have missed the entire point of my post that it doesn`t matter at the end of the day what job you do !! So to say I need to get over it, lose the chip, realise that people lay their lives on the line etc etc is classic !!Go patronise someone else. My post clearly stated that my thoughts and feelings are above that narrow minded view of life.
Still not making sense ? Probably time to step back and chill out. You're going for the wrong guy.
And one final thing fella . Try posting in a manner and style that fits with the maturity and common sense someone in your position should have
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There appears to be some tempers flaring at the mo'. I guess for 'Shifty Fix' read F3 OCU, who are my all time greats. Worked with lots of foreign nations and have found the F15C drivers to be the most amenable. Sadly the French strike me as too over-enthusiastic, and somewhat lacking in airspace awareness, although good fun.
I find the jags, GR4s, Hawks and indeed the Harrier force equally thankful for the service we provide.
Lookin forward to lprovidin GCI for Typhoon which should be a hoot. In the meantime can we all play nicely or am I providing a distraction?
Rgds
F
I find the jags, GR4s, Hawks and indeed the Harrier force equally thankful for the service we provide.
Lookin forward to lprovidin GCI for Typhoon which should be a hoot. In the meantime can we all play nicely or am I providing a distraction?
Rgds
F
I started to re think things as this was the kind of person I was going to spend my life working with.
You say that the best thing in the world is sitting on a flight deck with lots of people bantering about non flying things. Funny. From my recollections the best afternoons were spent at LL through the highlands then bantering in the coffee bar or happy hour about non flying things. But then you probably don't want to tax yourself too much fella.
By the way smart move to drop in the bit about lots of mates who don't care about the air force - makes you look windswept and interesting.
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Still missing the point mate.! I don't really care how you spent your afternoons. You write it as if you are thinking to yourself "That`ll wind him up !!!" All these people who post on here or read it are thinking " THIS is the type of guy this thread was started about".
Probably a fair point about making an assumption on one guy. Maybe a bit premature and hasty. I`ll admit to that.
Don't think I said it was the best thing in the world being on a flight deck talking about something other than flying. Maybe didn't phrase it correctly. Point I was making was that it's quite refreshing to be in an environment where flying wasn't everything .
And if you think I write things about friends on a forum which is annonymous to appear windswept and interesting then I really do pity you chap.
Just to clarify. The guy I flew with asked why I was only aspiring to be second best. You are saying that those who don't fly Harriers are second best ?
Not trying to start an ongoing argument here just trying to put things straight. You want to continue finding things from my posts on which you can turn around, comment against and argue on feel free. You`ll be on your own.
Probably a fair point about making an assumption on one guy. Maybe a bit premature and hasty. I`ll admit to that.
Don't think I said it was the best thing in the world being on a flight deck talking about something other than flying. Maybe didn't phrase it correctly. Point I was making was that it's quite refreshing to be in an environment where flying wasn't everything .
And if you think I write things about friends on a forum which is annonymous to appear windswept and interesting then I really do pity you chap.
Just to clarify. The guy I flew with asked why I was only aspiring to be second best. You are saying that those who don't fly Harriers are second best ?
Not trying to start an ongoing argument here just trying to put things straight. You want to continue finding things from my posts on which you can turn around, comment against and argue on feel free. You`ll be on your own.
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Flaps old fella,
Might I suggest you partake in a couple of beers then re read your posts
You might find the alcohol and the ensuing numbing effect that consumption inevitably brings will allow you to see just how others could find you tone rather offensive
You do come accross a tad on the arrogant side, and i have no doubt that a mere balders like myself will no doubt suffer for having the temerity to make such a suggestion, but have another look at your words...........then, and I now this will be hard but do your best, try and imagine a time when you where you are not the best of the best and see what feelings you written words here might give rise too.
None of the above has any offensive meaning to it, I just like to think that with 30 years service behind me, I can sometimes offer the occasional word of wisdom to someone who is ever so slightly missing the point
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Might I suggest you partake in a couple of beers then re read your posts
You might find the alcohol and the ensuing numbing effect that consumption inevitably brings will allow you to see just how others could find you tone rather offensive
You do come accross a tad on the arrogant side, and i have no doubt that a mere balders like myself will no doubt suffer for having the temerity to make such a suggestion, but have another look at your words...........then, and I now this will be hard but do your best, try and imagine a time when you where you are not the best of the best and see what feelings you written words here might give rise too.
None of the above has any offensive meaning to it, I just like to think that with 30 years service behind me, I can sometimes offer the occasional word of wisdom to someone who is ever so slightly missing the point
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Here's my tuppence. I think the 56 ****er that I knew was another one <g> a bully certainly.
Years ago, a MEng pointed out the difference between officer aircrew and airmen aircrew: One read the Daily Telegraph, had 5 O-levels and applied for a commission. The other read the Daily Mirror, had 4 O-levels and applied for airmen aircrew. All because the Air Ministry placed different ads in different papers. They still do.
More later.
IMHO, aircrew are different because they have to be physically fit, have the aptitude to do the job and then undergo 2-3 years training before they become productive. They do not have to be overly bright hence the old 5 O-levels and later 2 A-levels.
Air Traffickers and Fighter Controllers are very similar to pilots and navs. They too need aptitude but do not need to be as ohysically fit. It is a truism that failed aircrew do not become air traffickers or fighter controllers.
Engineers may have aircrew aptitude but are generally cleverer. They generally need a degree and that goes for a few others such as P Ed, Ed, Medic, Dental.
The admin and supply generally do not have the aircrew aptitude and are often populated by those who are not physically fit or who are chopped aircrew.
Finally, addressing the pilot/nav divide. Again in MHO pilots tend to be instinctive, tactically aware and spontaneous. Navs, OTOH, tend to think more strategically. They can plan ahead and consider the longer term plan.
It follows that the Harrier shag has to do both! As indeed does the Jag guy. The Tornado has a shared load but the ME guys have a whole team to play with.
The aptitude, selection, training, job all mold the man.
Aircrew will take chances. Air Traffickers will stick to the rules and so on.
Years ago, a MEng pointed out the difference between officer aircrew and airmen aircrew: One read the Daily Telegraph, had 5 O-levels and applied for a commission. The other read the Daily Mirror, had 4 O-levels and applied for airmen aircrew. All because the Air Ministry placed different ads in different papers. They still do.
More later.
IMHO, aircrew are different because they have to be physically fit, have the aptitude to do the job and then undergo 2-3 years training before they become productive. They do not have to be overly bright hence the old 5 O-levels and later 2 A-levels.
Air Traffickers and Fighter Controllers are very similar to pilots and navs. They too need aptitude but do not need to be as ohysically fit. It is a truism that failed aircrew do not become air traffickers or fighter controllers.
Engineers may have aircrew aptitude but are generally cleverer. They generally need a degree and that goes for a few others such as P Ed, Ed, Medic, Dental.
The admin and supply generally do not have the aircrew aptitude and are often populated by those who are not physically fit or who are chopped aircrew.
Finally, addressing the pilot/nav divide. Again in MHO pilots tend to be instinctive, tactically aware and spontaneous. Navs, OTOH, tend to think more strategically. They can plan ahead and consider the longer term plan.
It follows that the Harrier shag has to do both! As indeed does the Jag guy. The Tornado has a shared load but the ME guys have a whole team to play with.
The aptitude, selection, training, job all mold the man.
Aircrew will take chances. Air Traffickers will stick to the rules and so on.
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Oh "wrinkled willy" , one can always rely on you to pop in with a few words of "Bamber Gascoign" proportions, and really keep things on track
Thanks fella and have a great weekend
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Thanks fella and have a great weekend
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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**** me ABIW, check colour state, over.........!
Not heard of the Doctors oath??
Just clarify what position you sit in? I thought this was a pilot bitchfest, not an also ran issue?
Not heard of the Doctors oath??
Just clarify what position you sit in? I thought this was a pilot bitchfest, not an also ran issue?
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Folks we always need someone like Wrinkled Willy to point us in the right direction
Have a truely great weekend wrinkled willy
We love you fella'
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Have a truely great weekend wrinkled willy
We love you fella'
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 28th Feb 2004 at 09:38.
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I'm a tad puzzled about all the angst being displayed on this subject. I did my 22 as an airman, left a Chief 'cos there was no promotion in my trade. During my time, and I know this was an attitude prevalent in the tech ranks, I couldn't give a stuff about who was "higher" or "lower" than me, be he/she commissioned or otherwise. My respect was always aimed at the bod who did what was needed, when it was needed, and no more. I never, at any time, had the wish to fly, I thoroughly enjoyed my work in Avionics and continued it when I left the Mob and came here to live. My pride was in the satisfaction of seeing my aircraft leave base in the best possible condition I could achieve, and return the same way, who was in the cockpit was none of my concern. All I was concerned with was the fact that the crew would return safely but, if not, then the cause would not be laid at my door through negligence on my part. The same as any other, flyer or not, pride in my work was my motivation!
Anyone who wishes to fly aeroplanes, be they FJ, ME, RW or whatever, is welcome to it, I'm happy doing what I do, BUT DOING IT WELL. If any person wishes to look down on me 'cos I don't fly, good on him, I don't care, he is the one with the problem. I spent time on squadrons, as well as in sim centres, and had the odd social intercourse with the officer ranks. I found that, as long as the proprieties were observed, on both sides, things stayed on an even keel, which suited me fine. What a great many officers forget, pilots as well as groundies, is that when they have come to their momentous decisions, it's the ground staff who have to get things done. Officer ranks, as well as Other ranks, have a well-established hierarchy, and that is as it should be.
I was once told, in Sharjah, by a very young "steely-eyed killer", that my "sole function in life was to tend to his needs". When I finally stopped laughing, I pointed out to him that I was there to tend to the needs of the aeroplane, what he did was of no consequence to me at all, as long as he didn't bend my aircraft!
Gentlemen, we all have our individual place and function, but if it takes the attitude of superiority over the attempts of others to enable you to function usefully, then perhaps a couple of steps backwards and a few moments of dispassionate assessment might be in order to take a reality check.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
Anyone who wishes to fly aeroplanes, be they FJ, ME, RW or whatever, is welcome to it, I'm happy doing what I do, BUT DOING IT WELL. If any person wishes to look down on me 'cos I don't fly, good on him, I don't care, he is the one with the problem. I spent time on squadrons, as well as in sim centres, and had the odd social intercourse with the officer ranks. I found that, as long as the proprieties were observed, on both sides, things stayed on an even keel, which suited me fine. What a great many officers forget, pilots as well as groundies, is that when they have come to their momentous decisions, it's the ground staff who have to get things done. Officer ranks, as well as Other ranks, have a well-established hierarchy, and that is as it should be.
I was once told, in Sharjah, by a very young "steely-eyed killer", that my "sole function in life was to tend to his needs". When I finally stopped laughing, I pointed out to him that I was there to tend to the needs of the aeroplane, what he did was of no consequence to me at all, as long as he didn't bend my aircraft!
Gentlemen, we all have our individual place and function, but if it takes the attitude of superiority over the attempts of others to enable you to function usefully, then perhaps a couple of steps backwards and a few moments of dispassionate assessment might be in order to take a reality check.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
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Spot on NightOwl.
"Live long and prosper"
MT
(I'd almost given up on this thread as my Arrogometer was at full deflection)
'Vacuum' - a nice word. I don't mean anything by that, I just genuinely think it's a nice word.
"Live long and prosper"
MT
(I'd almost given up on this thread as my Arrogometer was at full deflection)
'Vacuum' - a nice word. I don't mean anything by that, I just genuinely think it's a nice word.
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Flaps
Trust me - with an attitude like that, there is no way on God's green earth that you could ever be an OC MT!
Contrary to what you may think, the 'rest' of us didn't all join the RAF to fly things, so we're not all failed single seaters. Never saw the attraction in flying really. Sure - looks interesting, exciting etc but not my cuppa really. I'm more interested in the people I work with and move around than the tin can they move around in - land, sea or air-borne. Sorry if that shatters any illusion.
Do the people on Shifyt Fix not even know thay are called that?! Bless.
As to the attitude of the flat-stoners who say "why should pilots look down on OC MT or whatever". The long and the short of it is that you could never do their job, but they can do yours if they had to (or OC catering or whatever). This means that not everyone is equal.
Trust me - with an attitude like that, there is no way on God's green earth that you could ever be an OC MT!
Contrary to what you may think, the 'rest' of us didn't all join the RAF to fly things, so we're not all failed single seaters. Never saw the attraction in flying really. Sure - looks interesting, exciting etc but not my cuppa really. I'm more interested in the people I work with and move around than the tin can they move around in - land, sea or air-borne. Sorry if that shatters any illusion.
Do the people on Shifyt Fix not even know thay are called that?! Bless.
NightOwl, I think you've called it exactly how the majority of techies think and operate. Can't really speak for other branches or trades but the majority seem to have a similar outlook.
We have all experienced the type of people this thread is about, for me its always been aircrew - techy with the odd run-in with regt or admin/sec. Clearly, the flyers here have had similar with fellow and senior aircrew. We all have our crosses to bear and when it comes down to it if we couldn't stand it anymore we'd go, right? Besides, is it not a real pleasure when you get your own back on an arrogant condescending git (in whatever world you circulate in)?
For what its worth, I recognise aircrew simply as people having a) the ability and b) the medical category to complete the relevant FTS / OCU courses. Not necessarily cleverer or with more common sense than me, but credit where credit's due. Anybody can learn to fly, but most people can't do it well enough in the time the RAF gives you.
There will never be equality of treatment in the military, it just doesn't work like that and we all know that. Some areas though need people taught to show a bit of respect to juniors, and basic bloody good manners in general. Failing that, when they want something from me, they get the bare minimum I HAVE to give them and if its not enough, well, tough. (Officer or SNCO I hasten to add).
Have a good weekend eveybody.
We have all experienced the type of people this thread is about, for me its always been aircrew - techy with the odd run-in with regt or admin/sec. Clearly, the flyers here have had similar with fellow and senior aircrew. We all have our crosses to bear and when it comes down to it if we couldn't stand it anymore we'd go, right? Besides, is it not a real pleasure when you get your own back on an arrogant condescending git (in whatever world you circulate in)?
For what its worth, I recognise aircrew simply as people having a) the ability and b) the medical category to complete the relevant FTS / OCU courses. Not necessarily cleverer or with more common sense than me, but credit where credit's due. Anybody can learn to fly, but most people can't do it well enough in the time the RAF gives you.
There will never be equality of treatment in the military, it just doesn't work like that and we all know that. Some areas though need people taught to show a bit of respect to juniors, and basic bloody good manners in general. Failing that, when they want something from me, they get the bare minimum I HAVE to give them and if its not enough, well, tough. (Officer or SNCO I hasten to add).
Have a good weekend eveybody.
Curiously, I noted once that it wasn't those with a public school background amongst the officers who were the chief protaganists of status. In fact, it was those who'd gained aircrew 'status' later in life having served elsewhere earlier in their careers. Nowhere was this more obvious than in the V-force, where ex-'hairies' were often inclined to throw their weight about. Similarly, some of the nastiest, pushiest senior officers it was my misfortune to come across were from relatively humble backgrounds - and had substantial chips on their shoulders. You don't seem to get this in the Army or Navy..
Was it that the public school chaps, having grown up in earlier, gentler years had a natural basic skill of working with others from a less privileged background without giving offence - or just that some in the other category were simply poachers turned gamekeepers?
There is no room for arrogance. As anyone who's ever kept a gun dog knows, mutual respect has to be earned - bullying and shouting is useless.
Was it that the public school chaps, having grown up in earlier, gentler years had a natural basic skill of working with others from a less privileged background without giving offence - or just that some in the other category were simply poachers turned gamekeepers?
There is no room for arrogance. As anyone who's ever kept a gun dog knows, mutual respect has to be earned - bullying and shouting is useless.
Night Owl clarifies many of my points re people doing a job properly and earned respect. He also echoes my point about the people doing the looking down having the problem.
What some people here are doing is extrapolating from my posts Because I said that some are better than others, some irate posters have taken it that I would consider myself top of the tree. Wrong! In my past existance we were always ready to accept that there is always someone better than you (be it Cloggie F16's, occasional spam in an F something or whatever). No ego problems, no arrogance - just a healthy acceptance of your place in the pecking order.
As for Mr C (I think it was) - sorry chap, I'm not the bloke you were thinking of. Never been nearer an F3 than 300yds in his six.
What some people here are doing is extrapolating from my posts Because I said that some are better than others, some irate posters have taken it that I would consider myself top of the tree. Wrong! In my past existance we were always ready to accept that there is always someone better than you (be it Cloggie F16's, occasional spam in an F something or whatever). No ego problems, no arrogance - just a healthy acceptance of your place in the pecking order.
As for Mr C (I think it was) - sorry chap, I'm not the bloke you were thinking of. Never been nearer an F3 than 300yds in his six.