Why is the RAF obsessed with status??
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Question, slightly off topic but possibly relating to relationships.
We were bollocked for 'negative' attitude turning up at the aircraft, often after a 2-3 hour delay, with 5 hours of noise ahead of us. "Is it bust then chief?" we would ask hopefully.
The black hand gang had been labouring all day to get the heap of sh1t ready and we were demoralising them by trying to scrub without even getting in.
We asked the chief and it was quite different. No way did they want an 1800 launch on a Friday night, a 5 hour wait, and the inevitable sicky at 2300 with the rest of the weekend trying to get it up for Monday. Rather put it to bed serviceable at 1800 and let the other b*gg*rs try and kick it to life again on Monday.
The mission was to get the hours up the line by 5 hours and no more. Were we right or wrong?
Beagle,
I agree that some 'hairies' could be B awkward. Their modus seemed to be to preserve their new status. It was from the other school and could get p*ss*d with the groundcrew but still emerge with my status intact.
We had one boss "Beano" There'll be NO this, there'll be NO that. He objected us to calling the groundcrew by first names. We asked them : Chief or Ben? "If you call me Chief I know you can see my rank. If you call me Ben I know you know who I am!"
Ben it was.
We were bollocked for 'negative' attitude turning up at the aircraft, often after a 2-3 hour delay, with 5 hours of noise ahead of us. "Is it bust then chief?" we would ask hopefully.
The black hand gang had been labouring all day to get the heap of sh1t ready and we were demoralising them by trying to scrub without even getting in.
We asked the chief and it was quite different. No way did they want an 1800 launch on a Friday night, a 5 hour wait, and the inevitable sicky at 2300 with the rest of the weekend trying to get it up for Monday. Rather put it to bed serviceable at 1800 and let the other b*gg*rs try and kick it to life again on Monday.
The mission was to get the hours up the line by 5 hours and no more. Were we right or wrong?
Beagle,
I agree that some 'hairies' could be B awkward. Their modus seemed to be to preserve their new status. It was from the other school and could get p*ss*d with the groundcrew but still emerge with my status intact.
We had one boss "Beano" There'll be NO this, there'll be NO that. He objected us to calling the groundcrew by first names. We asked them : Chief or Ben? "If you call me Chief I know you can see my rank. If you call me Ben I know you know who I am!"
Ben it was.
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Beagle, I did 8 yrs as a technician and 16 as a pilot. I would like to think that I was anything but the person you are describing. I know a lot of other 'hairies' and they were 'sensible' as well. I'm quite hurt by that.....sniff...... 
Please don't think for a moment that my comment was meant to imply that every 'hairy' was guilty of being a status-conscious character!
Some were, many weren't......
Some were, many weren't......
By status I presume we are refering to "job/trade", e.g aircrew, techie, etc as opposed to rank?
However, an observation on history. The Battle of Britain is usually depicted in films as having been won by Officer pilots flying Spitfires. Whereas in actual fact it was mainly won by NCO pilots flying Hurricanes.
NCO pilots largely disappeared (so I am lead to believe) in the 60's with the arrival of the V bombers, "can't have NCO's in charge of the detergent don't you know...."! (and yes I did mispell it on purpose!!)
Wonder if Flap62 would have been as arrogant if he had been a Sgt flying Harriers? Narh!! Course he would!!!
However, an observation on history. The Battle of Britain is usually depicted in films as having been won by Officer pilots flying Spitfires. Whereas in actual fact it was mainly won by NCO pilots flying Hurricanes.
NCO pilots largely disappeared (so I am lead to believe) in the 60's with the arrival of the V bombers, "can't have NCO's in charge of the detergent don't you know...."! (and yes I did mispell it on purpose!!)
Wonder if Flap62 would have been as arrogant if he had been a Sgt flying Harriers? Narh!! Course he would!!!
And there was me thinking that such an antisocial attitude as an over-inflated sense of pride/ego/importance was just a defence mechanisms for the idividual's numerous inadequacies!
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'Ex-Hairy'
I have served in the RAF for 17 years, half of which as an avionics technician and the rest as a commissioned officer. I tried my hand at flying but ultimately had a capacity lack - no regrets, and I enjoy my current role immensely. I have served on the front line for a majority of that time, on the Jaguar, Harrier, Tornado GR and Canberra forces and in general found the pilots/navs to be an approachable bunch with a healthy respect for those of us nailed to the ground but fulfilling important support functions.
However, Beagle et al, I have to take issue with the use of the term 'Ex-Hairy', the use of which is thoroughly repellent and offensive, whether offered in banter or not.
It is exactly that type of elitist arrogance that we are being criticised for!
I worked bl@@dy hard to get where I am from modest beginnings, and am proud of the achievement. I have considerably more than the '4 'O' levels' etc required to join the Officer Corps.
I first came across the term during IOT, from a snotty ex-UAS student officer who thought he had already gained his wings by merely turning up. He really couldn't understand why I found the term offensive and derogatory......he understood only when I suggested we retire to the rear of the Mess to sort it out 1 v 1!
I really don't care where the term originates - I just don't think it's appropriate these days.
CV
However, Beagle et al, I have to take issue with the use of the term 'Ex-Hairy', the use of which is thoroughly repellent and offensive, whether offered in banter or not.
It is exactly that type of elitist arrogance that we are being criticised for!
I worked bl@@dy hard to get where I am from modest beginnings, and am proud of the achievement. I have considerably more than the '4 'O' levels' etc required to join the Officer Corps.
I first came across the term during IOT, from a snotty ex-UAS student officer who thought he had already gained his wings by merely turning up. He really couldn't understand why I found the term offensive and derogatory......he understood only when I suggested we retire to the rear of the Mess to sort it out 1 v 1!
I really don't care where the term originates - I just don't think it's appropriate these days.
CV
".....he understood only when I suggested we retire to the rear of the Mess to sort it out 1 v 1!"
Hardly an officer like or even a mature attitude.
Why do you consider 'hairy' to be inappropriate? I've only ever heard it used in friendly banter, never as a term of derision.
'Green shielder' was the usual parry!
For complete and utter 'status' bull$hit, the comment made by a particularly wet Cranwell Flt Cdr to an ex-apprentice member of 14 GE that he had 'un-officer like facial bone structure' was hard to beat!
Hardly an officer like or even a mature attitude.
Why do you consider 'hairy' to be inappropriate? I've only ever heard it used in friendly banter, never as a term of derision.
'Green shielder' was the usual parry!
For complete and utter 'status' bull$hit, the comment made by a particularly wet Cranwell Flt Cdr to an ex-apprentice member of 14 GE that he had 'un-officer like facial bone structure' was hard to beat!
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So a 'Hairy' calling aircrew a 'Growbag' is too harsh too?
Chinese, sorry that you are so sensitive.
I shall ensure no banter occurs between anybody ever again for fear of offending you.
And you've survived for 17 years?
Chinese, sorry that you are so sensitive.
I shall ensure no banter occurs between anybody ever again for fear of offending you.
And you've survived for 17 years?
"Hairy" derogatory? nah! Term of respect, fear maybe, even endearment.
But I never did quite figure out if the term was derived from the uniform, or from excessively hirsute aged nether regions.
But I never did quite figure out if the term was derived from the uniform, or from excessively hirsute aged nether regions.
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Aaahh, so I was being over-sensitive and followed it up by being un-officerlike. My mistake!
Do you really think that the term isn't derisory?
Perhaps I should have mentioned the lengthy discussions I had with the individual referred to above where he refused to accept any point of view bar his own. According to his experience of, oh, two months, the term was used across the RAF for anyone commissioned from the ranks. In a bygone age, perhaps, but where did he get the idea? From a system which breeds an arrogant and outdated attitude to those who do not wear a brevet or flying badge....
I was surprised to see the term used on this thread - I had only previously encountered its use at Cranwell, and then only from the mouths of those students from the UAS system. It was nice to see that their instructors had prepared them fully for life in the RAF beyond their weekend flying club!
I accept that the final offer to the young chap was not a particularly mature thing to do, but it took the possibility of such a step to penetrate the chap's blinkered and arrogant perception of life in the RAF. I'm not one of the PC brigade, but if someone refers to me in a way I find offensive, I reserve my right to stand up for myself. Unofficer-like? I don't think so.
Perhaps in the earlier years of your service, BEagle, it was banter, but I would suggest those days are now gone - and I always thought banter was supposed to be witty...
CV
Do you really think that the term isn't derisory?
Perhaps I should have mentioned the lengthy discussions I had with the individual referred to above where he refused to accept any point of view bar his own. According to his experience of, oh, two months, the term was used across the RAF for anyone commissioned from the ranks. In a bygone age, perhaps, but where did he get the idea? From a system which breeds an arrogant and outdated attitude to those who do not wear a brevet or flying badge....
I was surprised to see the term used on this thread - I had only previously encountered its use at Cranwell, and then only from the mouths of those students from the UAS system. It was nice to see that their instructors had prepared them fully for life in the RAF beyond their weekend flying club!
I accept that the final offer to the young chap was not a particularly mature thing to do, but it took the possibility of such a step to penetrate the chap's blinkered and arrogant perception of life in the RAF. I'm not one of the PC brigade, but if someone refers to me in a way I find offensive, I reserve my right to stand up for myself. Unofficer-like? I don't think so.
Perhaps in the earlier years of your service, BEagle, it was banter, but I would suggest those days are now gone - and I always thought banter was supposed to be witty...
CV
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Even in the fishead arena I know that a hairy is an RAF officer who has got commissioned from the ranks - just like a "Yardie" in my service. Most of them are awesome people who, having seen the other side of the coin,display leadership of the utmost quality. There are others, of course, who are different .....
.... a typical response from a bully is to resort to violence. In the situation described above, and as a holder of the Queen's Commission, you should have the intelligence to politely argue your point of view, or walk away, not threaten to beat 10 bells of sh*t out of someone.
Pathetic
.... a typical response from a bully is to resort to violence. In the situation described above, and as a holder of the Queen's Commission, you should have the intelligence to politely argue your point of view, or walk away, not threaten to beat 10 bells of sh*t out of someone.
Pathetic
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Chinese Vic
Back in the 60s, when I was but a callow youth in Betty Windsor's senior service, I remember meeting several RAF 'hairy' FLTLT QFIs, other pilots, air traffickers and simulator instructors, who had served as NCO aircrew during WW2.
Many were decorated (DFM etc) and had served in high risk occupations (eg Pathfinders) in Bomber Command.
I received much 'guidance and counselling' from these guys, most of it relevant and useful; and not all aviation based.
Don't recall any of them getting a tad testy about said term of endearment. Most were quite capable of holding their own in repartee, particularly the Scotsmen!
Wasn't Sir Frank Whittle a 'hairy'?
Methinks you need to get a life, son, or at least stop pulling the pud. If you're a career officer, you’ll never make squadron fuehrer by throwing temper tanties in or about the O’s Mess.
Better still, give the Cr@bs the ar$e and emigrate to Oz where you'll find the lack of a middle class based on 2 'A' levels makes for a more egalitarian way of life. Here, notwithstanding your alleged tert quals, people will tell you to your face that you’re a fu*kwit. And a fu*kwit with a PhD is still a fu*kwit!
Many were decorated (DFM etc) and had served in high risk occupations (eg Pathfinders) in Bomber Command.
I received much 'guidance and counselling' from these guys, most of it relevant and useful; and not all aviation based.
Don't recall any of them getting a tad testy about said term of endearment. Most were quite capable of holding their own in repartee, particularly the Scotsmen!
Wasn't Sir Frank Whittle a 'hairy'?
Methinks you need to get a life, son, or at least stop pulling the pud. If you're a career officer, you’ll never make squadron fuehrer by throwing temper tanties in or about the O’s Mess.
Better still, give the Cr@bs the ar$e and emigrate to Oz where you'll find the lack of a middle class based on 2 'A' levels makes for a more egalitarian way of life. Here, notwithstanding your alleged tert quals, people will tell you to your face that you’re a fu*kwit. And a fu*kwit with a PhD is still a fu*kwit!
Last edited by Argus; 3rd Mar 2004 at 04:42.
Chinese Vic
I first came across the term hairy when I went through Cranwell over twenty years ago - and no I wasn't a graduate of a 'weekend flying club'. A hairy was somebody commissioned from the ranks. Since they had been serving for years, and we had been in for days, they were a good source of knowledge and advice outside of the regular working hours and directing staff. They were usually made senior cadet (or whatever it was called) to start with, and most were more than willing to pass on some pearls of wisdom which we gratefully accepted. We had nothing but the outmost respect for them.
Indeed the one group of people I have come to have the most respect for in my 20+ years in the RAF (Flaps62 you arrogant Harrier jock - I hope you are reading this!) is ex-Halton apprentices. Whereever I have met ex-Halton guys, as pilots, crew chiefs, etc, I have never failed to be impressed by their knowledge, abiltiy, good humour and work rate. Now that was a brilliant training ground for guys that today still form the backbone of many parts of the RAF!
As for yourself Chinese Vic, I don't know if the use of the word hairy has changed over the years, but it sounds like you have a personal gripe with the individual concerned (using phrases like 'weekend flying club' implies you have a 'what do they know get some time in' attitude and a chip on your own shoulder). Rest assured, if the young man didn't have a bad image of 'hairys' before your conversation than he does now. You had the chance to educate him - you ellected not to take it. Maybe that says more about you, who should know better, than a young impressionable lad just starting off on his RAF career, wet behind the years, and with a lot to learn, and unlearn (and that includes during conversdations in the bar and mess) if anyone can be bothered to educate him rather than thump him!
I first came across the term hairy when I went through Cranwell over twenty years ago - and no I wasn't a graduate of a 'weekend flying club'. A hairy was somebody commissioned from the ranks. Since they had been serving for years, and we had been in for days, they were a good source of knowledge and advice outside of the regular working hours and directing staff. They were usually made senior cadet (or whatever it was called) to start with, and most were more than willing to pass on some pearls of wisdom which we gratefully accepted. We had nothing but the outmost respect for them.
Indeed the one group of people I have come to have the most respect for in my 20+ years in the RAF (Flaps62 you arrogant Harrier jock - I hope you are reading this!) is ex-Halton apprentices. Whereever I have met ex-Halton guys, as pilots, crew chiefs, etc, I have never failed to be impressed by their knowledge, abiltiy, good humour and work rate. Now that was a brilliant training ground for guys that today still form the backbone of many parts of the RAF!
As for yourself Chinese Vic, I don't know if the use of the word hairy has changed over the years, but it sounds like you have a personal gripe with the individual concerned (using phrases like 'weekend flying club' implies you have a 'what do they know get some time in' attitude and a chip on your own shoulder). Rest assured, if the young man didn't have a bad image of 'hairys' before your conversation than he does now. You had the chance to educate him - you ellected not to take it. Maybe that says more about you, who should know better, than a young impressionable lad just starting off on his RAF career, wet behind the years, and with a lot to learn, and unlearn (and that includes during conversdations in the bar and mess) if anyone can be bothered to educate him rather than thump him!
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Chinese Vic,
Oh Dear, you have got it bad old boy!
I am delighted to say that I too was a 'hairy' before I chose aircrew many years ago. It is NOT offensice, derisory or anything else remotely 'not nice' I regarded it affectionately as term of enderement, of which I was quite proud.
I regret you have taken offence but you realy need to lighten up - if that is all you have to worry about in your life, then you are doing OK I would suggest.
KInd regards to ALL past and present hairies - where we would be without you?
The Swinging Monkey
Caruthers, send Vic a bottle of Grouse and a portion of fried rice!
Oh Dear, you have got it bad old boy!
I am delighted to say that I too was a 'hairy' before I chose aircrew many years ago. It is NOT offensice, derisory or anything else remotely 'not nice' I regarded it affectionately as term of enderement, of which I was quite proud.
I regret you have taken offence but you realy need to lighten up - if that is all you have to worry about in your life, then you are doing OK I would suggest.
KInd regards to ALL past and present hairies - where we would be without you?
The Swinging Monkey
Caruthers, send Vic a bottle of Grouse and a portion of fried rice!
Biggus - you're starting to sound a bit like a stuck record.
Go back and read my posts -
Go back and read my posts -
I know in that position would respect anyone who has a similar talent and work ethic, whatever their rank.
Flap62,
I didn't realise 'stuck records' were banned from pprune! In fact it is full of them:
WEBF - Turns every thread into 'lets save the SHAR'!
ABIW - Always makes infantile comments and talks arse!
MM - Always says how wonderful the E-3D is!
PhoneyTony - Tells us how wonderful AEOs are!
Stop Start - Always talks sense, with large amounts of humour thrown in! Always worth a read!
Flaps62 - Tells us how FJ pilots, especially single seat, are so much better than the rest of us mere mortals!
Biggus - Make your own mind up, that is your right Just do a search for all the threads I have made comments on. I think you will find that generally I am not repetetive or have an axe to grind! Except maybe with people who have an over inflated opinion of themselves!
I didn't realise 'stuck records' were banned from pprune! In fact it is full of them:
WEBF - Turns every thread into 'lets save the SHAR'!
ABIW - Always makes infantile comments and talks arse!
MM - Always says how wonderful the E-3D is!
PhoneyTony - Tells us how wonderful AEOs are!
Stop Start - Always talks sense, with large amounts of humour thrown in! Always worth a read!
Flaps62 - Tells us how FJ pilots, especially single seat, are so much better than the rest of us mere mortals!
Biggus - Make your own mind up, that is your right Just do a search for all the threads I have made comments on. I think you will find that generally I am not repetetive or have an axe to grind! Except maybe with people who have an over inflated opinion of themselves!
Last edited by Biggus; 1st Mar 2004 at 18:28.
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I think we've covered the hairy thing. Can we stop now and go back to harrier pilots?
I've never worked out why they are so arrogant. If you ignore the PR and look at the facts, they fly the least capable FJ (aircraft?) in the RAF. Crap range/payload, slow, low SA and can't even carry a gun. And when it's cloudy it gets worse!!
The arrogance can't be just single seat-Jag mates have a completely different attitude.
By the way, not all of us wanted single-seat, some wanted to fly fighters!!
I look forward to a response!!!
I've never worked out why they are so arrogant. If you ignore the PR and look at the facts, they fly the least capable FJ (aircraft?) in the RAF. Crap range/payload, slow, low SA and can't even carry a gun. And when it's cloudy it gets worse!!
The arrogance can't be just single seat-Jag mates have a completely different attitude.
By the way, not all of us wanted single-seat, some wanted to fly fighters!!
I look forward to a response!!!
Perhaps the term 'hairy' stems from the days in the late '60s when hossifers wore smooth barathea battledress (incuding the 'aircrew version' for Lightning and V-force mates - best uniform ever!) whilst NCOs and ORs wore 'hairy' wool serge battledress? Someone who'd spent a few years itching in the woolly stuff was thus an 'ex-hairy'?
That 'aircrew' No 2 battledress was infinitely smarter than the awful 'Thunderbirds' smock which came into use around 1974 - but both were better than the tatty prep-school pullover now in use!
That 'aircrew' No 2 battledress was infinitely smarter than the awful 'Thunderbirds' smock which came into use around 1974 - but both were better than the tatty prep-school pullover now in use!
