Why is the RAF obsessed with status??
5KSTROP
I presume you were pi**ed when you wrote that!! Although I never had a classic education, even I have found that the use of full stops, capital letters, and even commas, makes it far easier for others to read your, no doubt carefully chosen, prose!
I presume you were pi**ed when you wrote that!! Although I never had a classic education, even I have found that the use of full stops, capital letters, and even commas, makes it far easier for others to read your, no doubt carefully chosen, prose!
Last edited by Biggus; 22nd Mar 2004 at 02:21.
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I was at a P2 presentation in an AFCO a few weeks ago. The Flt Lt presenting it was an admin officer and she stated that pilots in the RAF viewed themselves as:
'a two winged master race'.
I am applying for pilot, but that is not how I would view myself.
'a two winged master race'.
I am applying for pilot, but that is not how I would view myself.
Pilots do not 'view themselves' as a two-winged master race - we ARE the Master Race!
Without pilots there would be no RAF. Remember that, O blunt ones!
Without pilots there would be no RAF. Remember that, O blunt ones!
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Status
Look, this is all getting out of hand so lets summarise:
Number of empires built with officers who bought their commission = one
Number of empires built with officers promoted on merit = nil
Officers who are promoted because they are decent solid chaps with a good family background whose fathers went to school with my father = world domination
Officers who are promoted due to "leadership" qualities = defence cuts, officer management strategy booklets, business speak, mission statements, and Saif Sareea
Number of empires built with officers who bought their commission = one
Number of empires built with officers promoted on merit = nil
Officers who are promoted because they are decent solid chaps with a good family background whose fathers went to school with my father = world domination
Officers who are promoted due to "leadership" qualities = defence cuts, officer management strategy booklets, business speak, mission statements, and Saif Sareea
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Mooney 12
Since you are from Norwich, it might not be too difficult for us 'Master Race' types to work out which AFCO said Flt Lt works at.........perhaps we should pop round and give her something to hang her towels on
HPT
Since you are from Norwich, it might not be too difficult for us 'Master Race' types to work out which AFCO said Flt Lt works at.........perhaps we should pop round and give her something to hang her towels on
HPT
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Mooney - you'd better get your attitude adjusted - unless you believe you are Master Race you'll never fit in - well - not through training anyway. If not already posessed, develop swagger, slight (but increasing) sneer and loud voice for the bar.
Beags - if technology were to develop far enough, and we went over to UAVs, would that mean the Air Force would cease to exist? We ARE developing the technology for the damn things to fly themselves, but they will never be able to fix themselves or pop down to the shops for a spare part!
Perhaps we sould work on technology to speed up Handbrake House instead?
Beags - if technology were to develop far enough, and we went over to UAVs, would that mean the Air Force would cease to exist? We ARE developing the technology for the damn things to fly themselves, but they will never be able to fix themselves or pop down to the shops for a spare part!
Perhaps we sould work on technology to speed up Handbrake House instead?
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BEagle
Typical
If you are flying ME, & you are a Pr*tt , who do you expect to pull you out of the fire, or into the dinghy before you get footprints on your shoulder-blades, should you managed to reach the ditdhing exits un-aided - I think you have been away from military flying for quite a while, or you have never flown 'proper' aeroplanes.
Typical
If you are flying ME, & you are a Pr*tt , who do you expect to pull you out of the fire, or into the dinghy before you get footprints on your shoulder-blades, should you managed to reach the ditdhing exits un-aided - I think you have been away from military flying for quite a while, or you have never flown 'proper' aeroplanes.
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Technology House
Though not normally a staunch defender of the Admin world, it will be suffering massive staff reductions with the introduction of JPAS - self-authorising claims, centralised/regionalised administrative support units etc etc. WIll this improve efficiency. I think not.
EC
EC
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Buoy 15
Resorting to playing the man instead of the ball usually suggests a fundamental flaw in one's reasoning.
I don't know BEagle and have never met him. However, if you take the trouble to check his profile and some of his 4,000 odd posts on Pprune (including this thread), you can ascertain without too much trouble that he has flown (at least) F4s, Vulcans, VC10s, Jet Provosts, Hunters and Gnats; and would not see himself as anything other than a team player.
If the above aren't 'proper' aircraft (whatever that means), then tell us, pray what are.
Methinks you need to get a life, son, or at least stop pulling pud. It makes you go blind!
Resorting to playing the man instead of the ball usually suggests a fundamental flaw in one's reasoning.
I don't know BEagle and have never met him. However, if you take the trouble to check his profile and some of his 4,000 odd posts on Pprune (including this thread), you can ascertain without too much trouble that he has flown (at least) F4s, Vulcans, VC10s, Jet Provosts, Hunters and Gnats; and would not see himself as anything other than a team player.
If the above aren't 'proper' aircraft (whatever that means), then tell us, pray what are.
Methinks you need to get a life, son, or at least stop pulling pud. It makes you go blind!
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buoy15,
Bit of a fau pas there mate. You should really look before you leap if you are going to have a go at an individual. On this occasion you got it terribly wrong.
However, I'm sure that BEagle is a forgiving sort of chap.
Rgds
E5.
Edited for spelling error !!
Bit of a fau pas there mate. You should really look before you leap if you are going to have a go at an individual. On this occasion you got it terribly wrong.
However, I'm sure that BEagle is a forgiving sort of chap.
Rgds
E5.
Edited for spelling error !!
Last edited by Echo 5; 24th Mar 2004 at 13:31.
buoy15 wasn't being offensive, he wrote "if you're being a pratt..........". Which would be true if one was.....he had a fair point.
TVM for kind words though team!
TVM for kind words though team!
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I agree entirely with Oggin Aviator and Blacksheep. Having been chopped pilot at JEFTS with the RAF and subsequently retrained as a submarine warfare officer in the RN, I feel I can speak with a bit of knowledge on the differences between the two systems and ways of life. Status was enormously important in the RAF - so much so in fact that the thought of remaining in the RAF in a non flying trade filled me with so much self generated depression and worry about being perceived as a loser/inadequate/deviant and having to watch my friends go flying every day while I worked in Supply/Admin or whatever that I resigned.
Having started over, I see that in the RN there is generally more respect between specialisations for the reasons mentioned above and simply that INITIAL TRAINING IS NOT ROLE FIXATED to the extent that IOT was. I fully accept that the RAF exists to put bombs on targets and people in cockpits but there needs to be more acknowledgement of the people who allow that to happen.
In saying all that...submarines are a wee bitty cheekier than bridge watchkeeping on a 42 for the first 6 years of your career....;-)
Having started over, I see that in the RN there is generally more respect between specialisations for the reasons mentioned above and simply that INITIAL TRAINING IS NOT ROLE FIXATED to the extent that IOT was. I fully accept that the RAF exists to put bombs on targets and people in cockpits but there needs to be more acknowledgement of the people who allow that to happen.
In saying all that...submarines are a wee bitty cheekier than bridge watchkeeping on a 42 for the first 6 years of your career....;-)
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Smartman
My goodness me, seems like you need a good lie down, a cup of tea and a Bex. If I say any more, you'll be inviting me out the back of the 'O's' Mess for a 'D & M'!
My goodness me, seems like you need a good lie down, a cup of tea and a Bex. If I say any more, you'll be inviting me out the back of the 'O's' Mess for a 'D & M'!
Last edited by Argus; 25th Mar 2004 at 19:51.
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the way it is....maybe
Dudes,
Great thread - we haven't seen bitching like this since the ARK GQ article!
On a serious note - as a passionate voyeur on our society - I am constantly disappointed by the bitching and backstabbing that goes on between aviators. As someone who gets vertigo going up a ladder (but having been flying in a black pig at 500kts) I have the greatst of respect for all wafu's. Some of my respect is envy - who, in their heart of hearts, wouldn't want to wander around in a green bag, do zero admin, go to airshows and generally have a ball? But as someone who is honest enough to admit I couldn't do their job I am also sick of the pathetic infighting that goes on. Yes wafu's get paid more - but only because they get paid earlier than the rest. Yes the Air Force is a society dominated by FJ (bar John Day) aircrew - but you knew that before you joined, so why bitch about it? As someone who would love to have flown, but knows he doesn't have the aptitude I joined the dark blue - here we are ruled by fish-heads who drive pusser's grey war canoes about - but Admirals and Commodores come in all shapes and specializations.
Those of you who suit up and pull 'g' - good on you. Those of us you (I hope) affectionately call 'REMFs' are here cos' we want to be. If you don't like what you do - change it and get your P45.
Why are aviators - whom we all assume are supremely confident in their abilities - so insecure when discussing their bretheren? Oddly, the really good ones don't seem to bitch about others.
"Remember, you are responsible for terrain avoidance"
Great thread - we haven't seen bitching like this since the ARK GQ article!
On a serious note - as a passionate voyeur on our society - I am constantly disappointed by the bitching and backstabbing that goes on between aviators. As someone who gets vertigo going up a ladder (but having been flying in a black pig at 500kts) I have the greatst of respect for all wafu's. Some of my respect is envy - who, in their heart of hearts, wouldn't want to wander around in a green bag, do zero admin, go to airshows and generally have a ball? But as someone who is honest enough to admit I couldn't do their job I am also sick of the pathetic infighting that goes on. Yes wafu's get paid more - but only because they get paid earlier than the rest. Yes the Air Force is a society dominated by FJ (bar John Day) aircrew - but you knew that before you joined, so why bitch about it? As someone who would love to have flown, but knows he doesn't have the aptitude I joined the dark blue - here we are ruled by fish-heads who drive pusser's grey war canoes about - but Admirals and Commodores come in all shapes and specializations.
Those of you who suit up and pull 'g' - good on you. Those of us you (I hope) affectionately call 'REMFs' are here cos' we want to be. If you don't like what you do - change it and get your P45.
Why are aviators - whom we all assume are supremely confident in their abilities - so insecure when discussing their bretheren? Oddly, the really good ones don't seem to bitch about others.
"Remember, you are responsible for terrain avoidance"
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Pig Fist
Interesting post.
It's all to do with the Dali Lama Syndrome and the Halo Complex!
Today's 'Andrew' must have changed. In my day, Betty Windsor owned six flat tops, the Fleet Air Arm was king, aircrew (some of whom went on to reach Flag rank) were the supreme beings and other, lesser mortals knew their place. We never bagged our colleagues (unless it was a certain AEW sqn whose members were alleged to indulge in 'conduct unbecoming' with each other) - but 'fish-heads' (especially 'goonery' officers with liquorice legs), 'plumbers' (except sqn engineers), Royal Marines, educators, 'pussers', particularly catering officers, all other general service types in dark blue who took themselves too seriously, and, of course cr@bfat, were fair game.
And we could fly the pants off ANY competition!
Interesting post.
It's all to do with the Dali Lama Syndrome and the Halo Complex!
Today's 'Andrew' must have changed. In my day, Betty Windsor owned six flat tops, the Fleet Air Arm was king, aircrew (some of whom went on to reach Flag rank) were the supreme beings and other, lesser mortals knew their place. We never bagged our colleagues (unless it was a certain AEW sqn whose members were alleged to indulge in 'conduct unbecoming' with each other) - but 'fish-heads' (especially 'goonery' officers with liquorice legs), 'plumbers' (except sqn engineers), Royal Marines, educators, 'pussers', particularly catering officers, all other general service types in dark blue who took themselves too seriously, and, of course cr@bfat, were fair game.
And we could fly the pants off ANY competition!
Last edited by Argus; 26th Mar 2004 at 23:14.
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Number of empires built with officers who bought their commission = one
Number of empires built with officers promoted on merit = nil
Number of empires built with officers promoted on merit = nil
Even if one ignores the xenephobic attitude that the former British Empire is the only empire in history (which is flat-out wrong), the fact remains that the Royal Navy had at least as much to do with the creation of that empire as did the British Army. And although officers' promotions in the senior service have not always been based entirely on merit, RN commissions and promotions have never been available for purchase (which most officers, being middle class, could never have afforded).
In any case, class snobbery
was directly (though not entirely) responsible for the break-up of the British Empire ... and not before time!
