Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Middle East
Reload this Page >

EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK to Decommission 50%+ of Airbus A380, Axe 1/2 of Pilots & Cabin Crew

Old 6th Jul 2020, 06:08
  #401 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have the article. Am I allowed to post it here as it’s a paywall thing
EchoKilla is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 09:11
  #402 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 752
Received 19 Likes on 6 Posts
‘Sir’ TC apparently started his career as a bus conductor in Bognor Regis (according to Sunday Times). Well Bognor Regis’ loss is ...No mention of the tsunami of job losses among pilots or cabin crew. Same on LinkedIn where any mention of EK provokes an outpouring of sycophancy. Very strange.
olster is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 10:04
  #403 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
he rather keeps 50bUsD assets than 22000 CC OR 4500pilot -
50b$ of metal has more importance than 26500 human lives - because they are ungainfully employed- that says it all
WB1900 is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 11:10
  #404 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dusty West
Age: 53
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
WB1900,

Its the nature of the business. EK is in the business of making money for the city state, not to provide free money to people. Let's get real here. If you had a business selling tires would you continue to keep office staff, mechanics, accountants, sales people etc if all of a sudden people stopped buying tires for some reason? You might keep the tools knowing full well that you'd start the business again when people come back wanting a new set of white-walls.

While I have no love for EK, I understand that this is necessary in order to stay competitive for the long term. Granted they are making many people redundant in a rather terrible and unorthodox way, and it sucks to be on the wrong end of the letter/email/manager's desk but its a very real part of the highly cyclical nature of aviation worldwide.

It has been said here 1000's of times, you are only at EK/QR/ET etc. as long as you are needed. It never has and never will be "home" to anyone other than an Emirati.
The Outlaw is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 15:08
  #405 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by WB1900
he rather keeps 50bUsD assets than 22000 CC OR 4500pilot -
50b$ of metal has more importance than 26500 human lives - because they are ungainfully employed- that says it all

Not sure that in the current market that $50bn in assets is actually worth $50bn.

the prices for Aluminium scrap are pretty low at the moment.
Jet II is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 15:37
  #406 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by WB1900
he rather keeps 50bUsD assets than 22000 CC OR 4500pilot -
50b$ of metal has more importance than 26500 human lives - because they are ungainfully employed- that says it all
this was the bio at the bottom:
Vital statistics
Born: November 22, 1949
Status: married, with three grown-up children
School: Kent College, Canterbury
University: London (economics)
First job: bus conductor in Bognor Regis
Pay: undisclosed
Homes: Dubai, Barnt Green in Worcestershire and Lismore in Ireland
Car: Mercedes S500, which served as inspiration for Emirates’ new first class
Favourite book: “I’m reading a series of books about Alan Turing”
Film: The Good Liar, with Dame Helen Mirren and Sir Ian McKellen
Music: classical
Gadget: “Toaster. Really, my toaster”
Last holiday: cruise around South America
Charity: the Emirates Airline Foundation, which helps disadvantaged children

Working day
When in Dubai, the president of Emirates Airline gets up at 5.20am and is in his office an hour later. Sir Tim Clark has devoted much of his time lately to “streamlining” the business, trying to keep cash flowing, and liaising with banks and engineers. “Planes have to be fired up every month and flown every month.”

He stops work at about 5pm and goes to the gym. “During lockdown I pinched an exercise bike from the office gym and took it home.”

Downtime
Clark loves cruises. “It goes back to the days when I used to see my father at sea. His name was Joseph. He went to sea at 14 and ended up an oil tanker captain for Shell. He sailed everywhere.”

EchoKilla is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 17:27
  #407 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by The Outlaw
WB1900,

Its the nature of the business. EK is in the business of making money for the city state, not to provide free money to people. Let's get real here. If you had a business selling tires would you continue to keep office staff, mechanics, accountants, sales people etc if all of a sudden people stopped buying tires for some reason? You might keep the tools knowing full well that you'd start the business again when people come back wanting a new set of white-walls.

While I have no love for EK, I understand that this is necessary in order to stay competitive for the long term. Granted they are making many people redundant in a rather terrible and unorthodox way, and it sucks to be on the wrong end of the letter/email/manager's desk but its a very real part of the highly cyclical nature of aviation worldwide.

It has been said here 1000's of times, you are only at EK/QR/ET etc. as long as you are needed. It never has and never will be "home" to anyone other than an Emirati.
agree so far that it might not be avoidable
but have they looked into every alternative - definitely not
business up or down - why do al sorts of companies around the globe a different approach as long as they can afford it - according to all the reports give by EK all the media presentation EK is definitely not in worst position to overcome the crisis - and yes I would show some humanity before I go to the worst measures, especially if I pull people into a place where it’s hard to get anywhere else - but that’s me.
fact is that EK had a lot of options

voluteering early retirment
following a seniority
unpaid leave
unpaid leave long term
if not enough volunteers - forced unpaid leave in revers senority order
lay-off with rehire on the same conditions and seniority
negotiate a lower base salary and temporary offset of provident
adjustment to housing allowance according to actual payments in mortgages - time limited

and on top of he wants to fly all 380 at beginning of 22, for this he needs to hire latest in August 21 - so that is 200m$ for 1 year without mentioned actions - at full pay to keep all of the pilots to start full gear again in 22 - but lives are not worth it even at times where humanity would be an important factor - he showed nothing but greed

just to a couple of ideas which come to my mind
at least a try to sort it out that’s way would have fair
and if all of that does not help than call it unavoidable

nothing absolutely nothing was considered except get ride of them

WB1900 is offline  
Old 6th Jul 2020, 20:33
  #408 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 752
Received 19 Likes on 6 Posts
I agree WB. There are a lot of options. Voluntary Redundancy, job share, unpaid / half pay leave. No creative thought, no empathy, no compassion. Just a 5 minute chat then out the door. Are we so far removed from the era when people were treated properly and management had some sort of morality or integrity? When pilots were respected for their training and qualifications? Sources within flight ops have told me that EK will be recruiting by October. On less pay off course; pure opportunism. What a shambles and what a dreadful,way to treat employees.
olster is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 04:14
  #409 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NQLD
Age: 37
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
WB1900


While I understand your point and agree some more flexibility may have achieved the same out come for the company (reduction in costs).

I’ll counter that with the unfortunate truth....

EK is not a national airline, as in their only loyalty to the staff is the Emiratis (as it should be). So any decisions made after that has been established will be based entirely on $$$. That’s it. I’m sorry but sometimes we all just need to accept it and move on.

The calculation would be something like:
A) salary for X months of no flying
VS
B) new hire and potentially upgrade training

When the cost of A) exceeds B) by a suitable margin (hassle vs $$ saved), then they make people redundant.

IMHO that’s all there is to it.

EK are the epitome of efficiency in terms of how the company is set up.
- no pesky unions
- flexible duty limits to cover a wide range of duties
- fleet pay
- no fleet transfers unless required
- no yearly step increase in years of service
the list goes on.

So the way the redundancy process was going to be done was ALWAYS going to be the most efficient for the company. We can all wish otherwise, but that’s just the way it is...
aviation_enthus is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 04:18
  #410 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: AOG
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Very succinctly explained
EchoKilla is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 05:02
  #411 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NQLD
Age: 37
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes on 1 Post
Nowhere did I mention how they chose people to go. I’m not going to argue on that point.
Except...
To point out that all the ME airlines have done the same thing to choose who goes first.

Anyway I digress. My point was entirely about A vs B.

You don’t get what I’m saying. The cost of salary now VS cost of recruiting new staff in X months. That is the saving. Look at TC’s comments about things returning to normal in 2 years. 18 months of even 50% (plus accom/school/etc) VS the cost to rehire in 18 months.
aviation_enthus is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 08:26
  #412 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by olster
I agree WB. There are a lot of options. Voluntary Redundancy, job share, unpaid / half pay leave. No creative thought, no empathy, no compassion. Just a 5 minute chat then out the door. Are we so far removed from the era when people were treated properly and management had some sort of morality or integrity? When pilots were respected for their training and qualifications? Sources within flight ops have told me that EK will be recruiting by October. On less pay off course; pure opportunism. What a shambles and what a dreadful,way to treat employees.
Respected? Anywhere in the ME if you a different skin colour, religion and sex there is no respect. Don't make me laugh.
Joker11 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 09:07
  #413 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Changes
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The number of pilots who seem to have been made redundant due to little other than a surgery in the last x number of years is shocking. Pilots with clean records, good reports, no warnings but an incident of surgery or illness i.e. cancer, but had recovered and were fully productive again is in my opinion disgusting. It shows a total lack of empathy, care or human dignity.

There were so many ways that this could have been done but it wasn’t. The airline has shown everyone within its realm that it really doesn’t care at all about anyone in the company. Your hard work, and long term dedication is worth nothing, just make sure you dont go sick because if you do...

Pilots and cabin crew who will live every day in fear of an email destroying their lives, still expected to fly safely. Stress at unprecedented levels, and a workforce who will never call sick even for the most extreme of situation due to fear of their livelihoods.

Seriously, is this any way for a company to operate? What are the safety implications? Does anyone who manages this really even care?
Fired600 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 09:14
  #414 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Long term implications?

I'm curious what those in the sandpit see as the long term implications of how EK and QR have played this whole thing re seniority. Two things we know for sure, pilots have short memories and right now any job is a good job... However I personally believe how they have cut people will hinder their long term recruitment prospects in the future. You will likely see a rise in T & Cs faster than we will in Europe as they struggle to convince people to trust them enough to uproot their families and move to the pit. I never expected EK or the like to treat their employees with respect or even decency but I did expect them to respect their seniority. Why would anyone in the future leave a job in Europe/US/Asia to join as an FO when 4 or 5 years in you could be cut adrift simply because you were unfortunate enough to need a few weeks off sick for any random number of reasons, it's not worth it anymore.
Whitemonk Returns is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 10:17
  #415 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
well I strongly believe this going way beyond all of it
saving $$$ was one thing - doesn’t work out - only for the paper next March - if they saved now 2% of the employee costs they go to burn 1% on hire new ones
I think the whole story goes into emiratisation as well
they just made space for those boys in the flight school who are about to be due - they would not be needed if all expats would stay for the next 3 years
this a strong implication
WB1900 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 10:58
  #416 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Doomadgee
Posts: 280
Received 47 Likes on 25 Posts
This is particularly relevant - especially the 9:30 mark

Capn Rex Havoc is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 11:52
  #417 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
good vid. maybe there is no such word in arabic...
having been for some time, it is everywhere in the ME society.... They just don’t care....
toxic....very toxic....
5star is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 13:21
  #418 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
I'm curious what those in the sandpit see as the long term implications of how EK and QR have played this whole thing re seniority. Two things we know for sure, pilots have short memories and right now any job is a good job... However I personally believe how they have cut people will hinder their long term recruitment prospects in the future. You will likely see a rise in T & Cs faster than we will in Europe as they struggle to convince people to trust them enough to uproot their families and move to the pit. I never expected EK or the like to treat their employees with respect or even decency but I did expect them to respect their seniority. Why would anyone in the future leave a job in Europe/US/Asia to join as an FO when 4 or 5 years in you could be cut adrift simply because you were unfortunate enough to need a few weeks off sick for any random number of reasons, it's not worth it anymore.
I would respectfully disagree - I dont think that the ME airlines will have any problems recruiting in the future as supply is going to outpace demand for many years, and will continue to do so due to the way that training is now carried out and the ability of people who want to be Pilots can self fund their training.

I also dont think that the argument that people will not move to the sandpit due to the insecurity of employment holds water as if you do long enough in this industry you eventually realise that no airline is fundamentally secure no matter what country it is in. For instance I know many flight crew in the US who have lost jobs and been furloughed (in some cases several times) over their long careers.
Jet II is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 13:58
  #419 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There will be always morons that will sign up for this BS.
Joker11 is offline  
Old 7th Jul 2020, 14:31
  #420 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jet II

I also dont think that the argument that people will not move to the sandpit due to the insecurity of employment holds water as if you do long enough in this industry you eventually realise that no airline is fundamentally secure no matter what country it is in. For instance I know many flight crew in the US who have lost jobs and been furloughed (in some cases several times) over their long careers.
Being furloughed in the US is very different than what EK just did. Firing people out of seniority order with no recall rights is a whole different category of uncertainty.

As a US pilot and a former EK guy I can tell you once the furloughs start here very few will be looking towards the Middle East as in previous years as EK was a far different place to work back then (a moot point as I suspect the industry’s recovery will be much more rapid in the US and Europe)....the word is out as I’d imagine it is in most of Europe. To get a 1st world pilot to move to the Middle East you need to offer superior QOL and money for the trouble. EK now provides neither in contrast to the previous economic upheavals.

Last edited by VThokie2; 7th Jul 2020 at 15:31.
VThokie2 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.