100 pilot's sick in EK A/C on ground.. LACK OF CREW!!!
I was going to write a long post about the appearance of a new PPRuNer called Mana Dubai.... I deleted the long text and decided to say
"Mana Dubai is either very brave, or very stupid for trying to expound the virtues of EK on these forums"
'Nuff said!
"Mana Dubai is either very brave, or very stupid for trying to expound the virtues of EK on these forums"
'Nuff said!
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Mana, welcome to PPrune, as you can now see it can be a brutal place at times where some posters like to eat their young. I am sure your comments were meant to be genuine but they portrayed an ignorance of the current situation. Our management (you), have detailed access to what makes the pilot group tick. Files and files of data gathered from our recruitment, from the psych interviews we complete each time we change a position. So I have to ask, knowing all this, why are you so surprised by our reactions to the forced negative changes over the recent years? Didn't anyone think to ask the army of HR staff what will be the reaction?
Another pilot at a meeting I attended last year made an interesting point that I will try and correctly recall . He noted how the pilot group are infact not part of the EK community at all. They are more an "absent workforce" who come and go through the basement of the bouncy castle (EGHQ) with little if any interaction with the rest of the company. They interact more with station managers down route than with their own Fleet Managers. Pilots are told that their positon is an integral part of the company management structure when this is simply not the case. A pilot takes no part in any management process outside his cockpit. This work environment (absent) leads the pilot group to mistrust and resent their managers. This is brought about by the isolation and lack of involvement in anything that has to do with their continued employment conditions. How can you not see this? Is this not taught at Airline Management 101?
You are right about one thing, this is not unique to EK, it is common with other airlines as well. Would'nt it be encouraging if EK managment actually did something about it. So now you have all the negative posts on PPrune, but it wasn't always that way. As a new Ppruner you will not remember that pre circa 2003, negative comments were few and far between and this Forum was a great recruitment add for EK. If a pilot asked what EK was like, the reply was quite simply, "no one leaves". I don't like the negative comments, I want to feel some pride when I tell another airline pilot that I work for EK, but I'm afraid to say that they have a bit of a laugh at me these days.
So the next time you are overlooking the Atrium to get a glimpse of your favourite Bollywood star, or a sponsored Premier League football team or to see if there is a free table at Costa so you can chat with other collegues in the EK community, have a thought for the worker ants passing through the basement to and from their aircraft 24/7.
Community? I took a 15% pay cut last year to help the company, how much did you give up?
Another pilot at a meeting I attended last year made an interesting point that I will try and correctly recall . He noted how the pilot group are infact not part of the EK community at all. They are more an "absent workforce" who come and go through the basement of the bouncy castle (EGHQ) with little if any interaction with the rest of the company. They interact more with station managers down route than with their own Fleet Managers. Pilots are told that their positon is an integral part of the company management structure when this is simply not the case. A pilot takes no part in any management process outside his cockpit. This work environment (absent) leads the pilot group to mistrust and resent their managers. This is brought about by the isolation and lack of involvement in anything that has to do with their continued employment conditions. How can you not see this? Is this not taught at Airline Management 101?
You are right about one thing, this is not unique to EK, it is common with other airlines as well. Would'nt it be encouraging if EK managment actually did something about it. So now you have all the negative posts on PPrune, but it wasn't always that way. As a new Ppruner you will not remember that pre circa 2003, negative comments were few and far between and this Forum was a great recruitment add for EK. If a pilot asked what EK was like, the reply was quite simply, "no one leaves". I don't like the negative comments, I want to feel some pride when I tell another airline pilot that I work for EK, but I'm afraid to say that they have a bit of a laugh at me these days.
So the next time you are overlooking the Atrium to get a glimpse of your favourite Bollywood star, or a sponsored Premier League football team or to see if there is a free table at Costa so you can chat with other collegues in the EK community, have a thought for the worker ants passing through the basement to and from their aircraft 24/7.
Community? I took a 15% pay cut last year to help the company, how much did you give up?
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Hear, hear.
TM
PS. Particularly liked the last bit, about the pay aspect to help the company (and, as I recall, to show that Flt Ops were leading the way and setting the example) - still waiting to see what pain the rest of the company's equally sharing, apart from working harder.
TM
PS. Particularly liked the last bit, about the pay aspect to help the company (and, as I recall, to show that Flt Ops were leading the way and setting the example) - still waiting to see what pain the rest of the company's equally sharing, apart from working harder.
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Mana, there's a great quote from the current Economist for those who would shoot the messengers instead of addressing the issues:
YOU CAN'T BLAME THE MIRROR FOR YOUR UGLY FACE!
Emirates and Dubai have massive spin machines backed by endless money to try and portray the image they want to. It doesn't change the reality behind the image.
YOU CAN'T BLAME THE MIRROR FOR YOUR UGLY FACE!
Emirates and Dubai have massive spin machines backed by endless money to try and portray the image they want to. It doesn't change the reality behind the image.
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To those of you who have answered my post in a productive and respectable way, thank you.
I am totally supporting freedom of speech, but freedom of speech does not mean to say whatever you think about your employer at all times, especially when there are better and more adequate ways of dealing with your problems than voicing them in a internet forum.
I have now read through most recent EK threads, and find it troubling that while you are criticizing me for trying to correct EKs image on this forum, the majority of contributors to this forum acts like a bullying mob whenever it comes a EK employee (ore others) who voice a positive opinion about the company and how it is to work there. That is not good conduct, and I find it ironic that the same people are raising the freedom of speech flag if anyone dares to challenge their worldview.
I have been accused of being a paid slave (EKBemused) and living life in luxury, not giving up anything for the community (Praise Jebus). All EK staff is paid competitive wages to attract the best people to our airline. Many who works in EKs management department are expats just like yourself who come here to get a standard of living and possibilities that are better than home.
EK is a company that has one thing in common with all other companies around the world. It exists to make a profit for its shareholders. Companies who don’t follow that logic are doomed for bankrupt ion unless they are subsidized by their owners. Unlike many of our European competitors Ek, does not and will not receive any subsidizes and therefore has to be a profitable company to survive and ensure its long-term survival. If EK didn’t do this they would not be able to offer anyone safe and secure jobs.
To ensure this we have all had to accept some sacrifices in the last difficult years. I see that you are displeased about the capping of your energy allowance, this change applies to everyone and we are all in this together. In all honesty I can’t understand how you think it’s fair that everyone should pay for a few peoples largesse and shedding. Would you rather like this money to be saved elsewhere? EK is trying its best to operate a great airline that passengers enjoy to fly with, and that employees enjoy to work for, but when times are though and cuts needs to be taken then we all have to bear our share of the burden.
The reason that I was voicing my opinion is that I felt that the image created of EK at this forum does not resemble the real EK I experience every day. My impression is that most of EKs employees are very happy with their jobs, and that they are proud of what we have achieved and how far we have come.
Regarding your comments about EKs management I am very disappointed of the views you are expressing. Just like you EKs management is just people. Just like you EKs management wants to do a good job. Just like you EKs management wants to run a great airline. In order to achieve this EKs management understands that it needs its pilots, cabin crew and ground staff to have good working conditions and competitive compensation. Despite some adjustments in the recent years, there is no doubt that what EK has to offer is highly competitive in the international market, and it will continue to be so to ensure the further growth and profitability of EK.
I am totally supporting freedom of speech, but freedom of speech does not mean to say whatever you think about your employer at all times, especially when there are better and more adequate ways of dealing with your problems than voicing them in a internet forum.
I have now read through most recent EK threads, and find it troubling that while you are criticizing me for trying to correct EKs image on this forum, the majority of contributors to this forum acts like a bullying mob whenever it comes a EK employee (ore others) who voice a positive opinion about the company and how it is to work there. That is not good conduct, and I find it ironic that the same people are raising the freedom of speech flag if anyone dares to challenge their worldview.
I have been accused of being a paid slave (EKBemused) and living life in luxury, not giving up anything for the community (Praise Jebus). All EK staff is paid competitive wages to attract the best people to our airline. Many who works in EKs management department are expats just like yourself who come here to get a standard of living and possibilities that are better than home.
EK is a company that has one thing in common with all other companies around the world. It exists to make a profit for its shareholders. Companies who don’t follow that logic are doomed for bankrupt ion unless they are subsidized by their owners. Unlike many of our European competitors Ek, does not and will not receive any subsidizes and therefore has to be a profitable company to survive and ensure its long-term survival. If EK didn’t do this they would not be able to offer anyone safe and secure jobs.
To ensure this we have all had to accept some sacrifices in the last difficult years. I see that you are displeased about the capping of your energy allowance, this change applies to everyone and we are all in this together. In all honesty I can’t understand how you think it’s fair that everyone should pay for a few peoples largesse and shedding. Would you rather like this money to be saved elsewhere? EK is trying its best to operate a great airline that passengers enjoy to fly with, and that employees enjoy to work for, but when times are though and cuts needs to be taken then we all have to bear our share of the burden.
The reason that I was voicing my opinion is that I felt that the image created of EK at this forum does not resemble the real EK I experience every day. My impression is that most of EKs employees are very happy with their jobs, and that they are proud of what we have achieved and how far we have come.
Regarding your comments about EKs management I am very disappointed of the views you are expressing. Just like you EKs management is just people. Just like you EKs management wants to do a good job. Just like you EKs management wants to run a great airline. In order to achieve this EKs management understands that it needs its pilots, cabin crew and ground staff to have good working conditions and competitive compensation. Despite some adjustments in the recent years, there is no doubt that what EK has to offer is highly competitive in the international market, and it will continue to be so to ensure the further growth and profitability of EK.
I Have Control
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DXB comments.
Been down DXB a few times. Also got a few mates at EK, who have been there for years, and they have shaped my opinion. I'm talking about the locals and their laws, along with the absence of protection for the mass of overseas workers. I'm particularly critical of the way lower-paid immigrant workers are treated. Which is starting to include aircrew.
Don't be offended, dustyprops; my comments are echoed around these threads.
(And there are some good bits to Dubai too, to be fair)
Don't be offended, dustyprops; my comments are echoed around these threads.
(And there are some good bits to Dubai too, to be fair)
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Come on???
Mana,
What shareholders? It seems that the only one that profits when we profit is upper management. As far as our employees making as much as other, HA! You need to get out more often and ask around the world. The mere wages paid to our rampers and other ground staff would have them on welfare in most countries. However, I do understand that the pay they receive is more than they would get in most of their home countries, but don't compare apples to oranges, at least not here. Remeber most of us and the peolpe who read this are semi-educated. Maybe everyone you run into your office is happy, but, if h*ll freezes over and someday we get a jumpseat back, I will meet you at 3 am going to India and I would like to introduce you to 16 or so people who are very representative of the real work force that holds this place together, don't get me wrong, alot of people keep this place going, but without these 16 people on every flight, there would be no flight. A previous post said there was no negative post before 2003, I think, well only 3.5 years ago there wasn't any either. This forums has been a place for some crap to flow, but the truth is sometimes hard to handle, isn't it. I hope you are management and take some of this information you read on here to someone that can help us. We came here because it was great and we use to tell all our friends about it. But for now we just can't. When there are so many companys offering commuting rosters, and don't tell me we couldn't. What can you offer someone these days? A contract that seems to be worthless. Rosters that make us all fly around like zombies??? Please give us something.....Oh yeah job security you say. Is that worth you health..Please make this like it use to be... Thanks, I now yeild to my next colleague.
Fly safe everyone...and get plenty of rest!
What shareholders? It seems that the only one that profits when we profit is upper management. As far as our employees making as much as other, HA! You need to get out more often and ask around the world. The mere wages paid to our rampers and other ground staff would have them on welfare in most countries. However, I do understand that the pay they receive is more than they would get in most of their home countries, but don't compare apples to oranges, at least not here. Remeber most of us and the peolpe who read this are semi-educated. Maybe everyone you run into your office is happy, but, if h*ll freezes over and someday we get a jumpseat back, I will meet you at 3 am going to India and I would like to introduce you to 16 or so people who are very representative of the real work force that holds this place together, don't get me wrong, alot of people keep this place going, but without these 16 people on every flight, there would be no flight. A previous post said there was no negative post before 2003, I think, well only 3.5 years ago there wasn't any either. This forums has been a place for some crap to flow, but the truth is sometimes hard to handle, isn't it. I hope you are management and take some of this information you read on here to someone that can help us. We came here because it was great and we use to tell all our friends about it. But for now we just can't. When there are so many companys offering commuting rosters, and don't tell me we couldn't. What can you offer someone these days? A contract that seems to be worthless. Rosters that make us all fly around like zombies??? Please give us something.....Oh yeah job security you say. Is that worth you health..Please make this like it use to be... Thanks, I now yeild to my next colleague.
Fly safe everyone...and get plenty of rest!
Surely folks, Mana and his/her posts is a wind up!
Nobody in management could be that far detached from the reality to really think that things here are rosy......???
Nobody in management could be that far detached from the reality to really think that things here are rosy......???
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Watchdog: I haven't said that EK was perfect, but just as the world isn't black ore white neither is EK, and this forum seem to only give a one sided negative view of EK that is not correct.
Taylor01: I haven't said that EK ground staff are paid the same as they are in W.Europe/USA, I have said that they pay all their staff competitive wages. If BA/United and so on could hire highly qualified personell with lower wages they would, same applies for EK.
There is no doubt to the fact that pilots, cabin crew and ground staff is essential and play an extremly important role in any airline, and that the airline would stop imideatly if it wasnt for them. In the same way there is no doubt that without management any airline would stop. EK is not interested in using anymore money on management than needed, and implying that all management do is going to the SPA and taking your money is just downright stupid.
Taylor01: I haven't said that EK ground staff are paid the same as they are in W.Europe/USA, I have said that they pay all their staff competitive wages. If BA/United and so on could hire highly qualified personell with lower wages they would, same applies for EK.
There is no doubt to the fact that pilots, cabin crew and ground staff is essential and play an extremly important role in any airline, and that the airline would stop imideatly if it wasnt for them. In the same way there is no doubt that without management any airline would stop. EK is not interested in using anymore money on management than needed, and implying that all management do is going to the SPA and taking your money is just downright stupid.
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Well, tell us, Mana: Are you flying? Or are you in the office? Because it seems you don´t have a clue what´s going on. And then please tell me how I can see my children back home with max. 3 days off in a row? I used to until 2 years ago when everything started going south. I was a good company man, but did it help me or my fellow colleagues? NO! So no more good company man, as sad as it is. You need to get your facts right, just because other jobs are worse than ours doesn´t make the constant contract breaches right.
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If BA/United and so on could hire highly qualified personell with lower wages they would, same applies for EK.
Why not address the other issues mentioned Mana? 78 to 94 hour rosters, less rest, fatigue, less pay (lower than the low you mentioned), no rights, no support... there's plenty to discuss on this forum and your input would be of great interest as it is obvious you are being told to come here and try and offer a more positive spin.
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Mana
You say that we all share the burden of the utilities cap... sorry to disappoint you but it's only a very small percentage of people that are affected, only because they have no choice as to where they live. If we're all in this together then why doesnt everyone pay a small equal amount towards reducing the utility bill? That would be fair.
Secondly, if the managers are all just doing their jobs, I say that they should all be let go - they have destroyed morale of most of the workforce in this company by outdated and middle age rule by fear practice. They have done this wilfully and without any consideration or interest for the consequences of their actions. Anywhere else in the world a breach of contract would not be allowed - here the attitude is - if you don't like it - leave! Well, many are......
Now they come begging us to recommend our friends, and when we say why would we , we get told if you don't like it, leave! guess what. Many are!!!!!!
Most of what is wrong with this company could be fixed in a day WITH NO COST TO THE COMPANY. But even with a complete management change (when oinks will fly!!) it would take a long long time to build up any trust again.
HOW SAD TO SEE.........
So Mana, take off your very dark glasses and take a good hard look around you, I think you might just get a fright, because you certainly don't work for the same company I do!
Safe Flying all
J
You say that we all share the burden of the utilities cap... sorry to disappoint you but it's only a very small percentage of people that are affected, only because they have no choice as to where they live. If we're all in this together then why doesnt everyone pay a small equal amount towards reducing the utility bill? That would be fair.
Secondly, if the managers are all just doing their jobs, I say that they should all be let go - they have destroyed morale of most of the workforce in this company by outdated and middle age rule by fear practice. They have done this wilfully and without any consideration or interest for the consequences of their actions. Anywhere else in the world a breach of contract would not be allowed - here the attitude is - if you don't like it - leave! Well, many are......
Now they come begging us to recommend our friends, and when we say why would we , we get told if you don't like it, leave! guess what. Many are!!!!!!
Most of what is wrong with this company could be fixed in a day WITH NO COST TO THE COMPANY. But even with a complete management change (when oinks will fly!!) it would take a long long time to build up any trust again.
HOW SAD TO SEE.........
So Mana, take off your very dark glasses and take a good hard look around you, I think you might just get a fright, because you certainly don't work for the same company I do!
Safe Flying all
J
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I have now repeatedly made it clear that not everything is perfect at EK, and that problems regarding EK should be taken up with the appropriate manager in charge, not on an internet forum. If you think that writing things at pprune will change how EK operates you are naive.
Yes it is true that due to the difficult economic times the world and as a result EK has been going through the last couple of years, some adjustments to employees compensation has been made. This has been necessary and just measures to reduce costs and ensure EKs long term survival.
The adjustment made to employee’s compensation is as far as I am concerned in line with UAE law, and does not breach any contracts. If you disagree on that point you should take your complaints to the legal system. However the compensation package offered by EK today is still good by international standards.
It is also true that turnover of personnel has gone up at EK recently; this must be seen as a natural development when the world economy is starting to improve. In the last five years EK has doubled the number of passengers carried, and been through a rapid expansion. It is totally natural that some employees get frustrated with how the airline operates when it goes through a period of such rapid expansion. EK has always relied on its employees to be based in Dubai, and its rosters are made up with that predicament in mind. EK understands that if all other factors are equal between EK and your native airlines you would choose to work for them, and that some people decide to quit is perfectly normal.
EK is hiring more staff at the moment to ensure further growth and addressing the issues you are raising, but when people spread negative publicity about EK that is either exaggerated ore simply not true you make the airlines growth difficult, and you make your own job harder.
Yes it is true that due to the difficult economic times the world and as a result EK has been going through the last couple of years, some adjustments to employees compensation has been made. This has been necessary and just measures to reduce costs and ensure EKs long term survival.
The adjustment made to employee’s compensation is as far as I am concerned in line with UAE law, and does not breach any contracts. If you disagree on that point you should take your complaints to the legal system. However the compensation package offered by EK today is still good by international standards.
It is also true that turnover of personnel has gone up at EK recently; this must be seen as a natural development when the world economy is starting to improve. In the last five years EK has doubled the number of passengers carried, and been through a rapid expansion. It is totally natural that some employees get frustrated with how the airline operates when it goes through a period of such rapid expansion. EK has always relied on its employees to be based in Dubai, and its rosters are made up with that predicament in mind. EK understands that if all other factors are equal between EK and your native airlines you would choose to work for them, and that some people decide to quit is perfectly normal.
EK is hiring more staff at the moment to ensure further growth and addressing the issues you are raising, but when people spread negative publicity about EK that is either exaggerated ore simply not true you make the airlines growth difficult, and you make your own job harder.
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Mana
I have been comtemplating flying for Emirates for some time. I have a lot of friends there and in the past years they were happy, and proud to fly there. Almost all of them have contacted me to warn me of the change of conditions there, that the postings here are the reality of what's going on. I've basically been told that unless I'm umemployed and desperate, not to consider it. I have worked in the Middle East before and knew how things worked but it seemed things were different there, no so it seems.
I have several friends whom have also withdrawn applications and under no circumstances would consider employment at Emerates under the current conditions. I sincerely hope that the lack of qualified applicants, and the shortage of pilots for expansion will wake someone up over there.
I wish everybody there good luck in getting things changed. Maybe if/when they start cancelling flights and pilots start leaving in droves things will improve.
I have several friends whom have also withdrawn applications and under no circumstances would consider employment at Emerates under the current conditions. I sincerely hope that the lack of qualified applicants, and the shortage of pilots for expansion will wake someone up over there.
I wish everybody there good luck in getting things changed. Maybe if/when they start cancelling flights and pilots start leaving in droves things will improve.
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I just cannot believe that the only way to communicate and have any kind of dialogue of any form with Ek management is now through Pprune.
What a shambles.
Is it any wonder this company is heading for rock bottom.
Mana, You are a disgrace.
What a shambles.
Is it any wonder this company is heading for rock bottom.
Mana, You are a disgrace.
Last edited by Overtimer997; 10th Mar 2010 at 17:15. Reason: error