Life after EK
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I do not believe the 'budgeting for 100+ resignations' rumour. I know for a fact that the man in charge of Flt Ops manpower couldn't run the budget of the average 10yr old's piggy bank!
The fact is that the reason we are up a creek without a paddle at the moment is because there was no flex. Not for sickness, training or any other type of absence; unbelievable! Flt Ops are cautiously optimistic that the new manpower budget might actually cover a few of these blindingly obvious areas. But, if you think the company is budgeting for resignations give me some of the stuff you are smoking; it will relax me even on the SZR.
The fact is that the reason we are up a creek without a paddle at the moment is because there was no flex. Not for sickness, training or any other type of absence; unbelievable! Flt Ops are cautiously optimistic that the new manpower budget might actually cover a few of these blindingly obvious areas. But, if you think the company is budgeting for resignations give me some of the stuff you are smoking; it will relax me even on the SZR.
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One more reason NOT to pick up the phone on days off, NOT to go into uneccessary discretion etc.. We'd only cover up for a loser who screws up our daily life. If there's not a visible outcome to p-poor planning, then the p-poor planners and managers will stay and play further games with us.
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Schnowzer,
Upgrade course told by EK beancounters,that our cutting edge leaders "facoring in" 5% attrition based on last years numbers.
1600 pilots,you do the maths 100+ is a second independent source.
Desperation.The solution is make it better for those here,joining or lower the bar yet further as with the CC.
Off to the pub.QB
Upgrade course told by EK beancounters,that our cutting edge leaders "facoring in" 5% attrition based on last years numbers.
1600 pilots,you do the maths 100+ is a second independent source.
Desperation.The solution is make it better for those here,joining or lower the bar yet further as with the CC.
Off to the pub.QB
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Review. 12 Mths.
Post made by UPLINK May 27th 2005
Hi Uplink,
I'm interested to know if your view has changed since twelve months ago. Or feel free to add!
I'm not trying to be rude and single you out. But you did make a valid, and to the point, post nearly one year ago.
Just interested.
Regards,
Kiwi.
Originally Posted by Uplink
Well said Alpha. I am still humoured by the rumour mill. The people that are leaving (20 this week, if anyone can name every one who is I would be glad to see the list) good luck to you all. I have to agree with Alpha, are you going to another job as an F/O to sit at the bottom of a list that will move as slowly as here.
At the moment it is the turn of the Airbus fleet to wait for their commands. A couple of years ago it was the Boeing fleet who had to watch Airbus guys leap ahead of them in the command stakes. In the next couple of years the A380 will come and guess what, the Boeing guys will watch the Airbus guys get ahead again.
Wherever you do end up, there will always be something to moan about. Emirates are expanding and there are very few out there doing it at the rate we are. I know guys in Europe who have waited 12 years for a command. So why is it different here. Because the interview promised a quick command? You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that with the aim of achieving 2200 pilots by 2010 (more or less) there will be 1100 capts and 1100 F/O's. There are over 1200 pilots in the company now. So providing you make the grade the upgrade will come. Unless you are a captain already, then it will come alot quicker than on the outside. As for the DEC's they are coming on the A310 and are very welcome to it.
As for new joiners, I cannot believe that people are still basing their joining decision on things they read here. If you think we are having a bad time look up the road to QR or GF. Everybody is the same. SQ have their faults, and yes they maybe are going to get a big bonus. But it is a little naive to look just at what you are paid. There is the package as a whole to consider.
If you compare the package like for like for any airline you will find you win and loose on all items across the board. Look at what SQ are doing to their accomodation allowance. They are shafted there too. If you find a package and not just cold hard cash which exceeds what you are getting now. Congatulations you have just found your next job.
As for resignations, I think someone on here said 200. What a load of crap. The only thing that will happen here is people wont join. They wont join often because of the horse **** they read here. What that does is jeopodise everyones job here. I certainly dont want to see aircraft parked against the fence. Guess what happens then, redundencies. Then you are screwed because your command will be even longer coming as you are fighting tooth and nail with your old colleagues trying to get the crapest job just to keep you head above the water. (As an F/O)
We will all end up like the Ozzies did in '89 but thats another story.
So the long and short of it is to wait and see. If you decide to stay then dont make life hard for yourself and your colleagues, it just makes it miserable for everyone. If you are going to leave, then just do it. You will be replaced. I worked in my last job for 15 years and realised I was just a number. I expect very few would know me now. We all move on. I did and was replaced.
At the moment it is the turn of the Airbus fleet to wait for their commands. A couple of years ago it was the Boeing fleet who had to watch Airbus guys leap ahead of them in the command stakes. In the next couple of years the A380 will come and guess what, the Boeing guys will watch the Airbus guys get ahead again.
Wherever you do end up, there will always be something to moan about. Emirates are expanding and there are very few out there doing it at the rate we are. I know guys in Europe who have waited 12 years for a command. So why is it different here. Because the interview promised a quick command? You dont have to be a rocket scientist to work out that with the aim of achieving 2200 pilots by 2010 (more or less) there will be 1100 capts and 1100 F/O's. There are over 1200 pilots in the company now. So providing you make the grade the upgrade will come. Unless you are a captain already, then it will come alot quicker than on the outside. As for the DEC's they are coming on the A310 and are very welcome to it.
As for new joiners, I cannot believe that people are still basing their joining decision on things they read here. If you think we are having a bad time look up the road to QR or GF. Everybody is the same. SQ have their faults, and yes they maybe are going to get a big bonus. But it is a little naive to look just at what you are paid. There is the package as a whole to consider.
If you compare the package like for like for any airline you will find you win and loose on all items across the board. Look at what SQ are doing to their accomodation allowance. They are shafted there too. If you find a package and not just cold hard cash which exceeds what you are getting now. Congatulations you have just found your next job.
As for resignations, I think someone on here said 200. What a load of crap. The only thing that will happen here is people wont join. They wont join often because of the horse **** they read here. What that does is jeopodise everyones job here. I certainly dont want to see aircraft parked against the fence. Guess what happens then, redundencies. Then you are screwed because your command will be even longer coming as you are fighting tooth and nail with your old colleagues trying to get the crapest job just to keep you head above the water. (As an F/O)
We will all end up like the Ozzies did in '89 but thats another story.
So the long and short of it is to wait and see. If you decide to stay then dont make life hard for yourself and your colleagues, it just makes it miserable for everyone. If you are going to leave, then just do it. You will be replaced. I worked in my last job for 15 years and realised I was just a number. I expect very few would know me now. We all move on. I did and was replaced.
Hi Uplink,
I'm interested to know if your view has changed since twelve months ago. Or feel free to add!
I'm not trying to be rude and single you out. But you did make a valid, and to the point, post nearly one year ago.
Just interested.
Regards,
Kiwi.
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EK A340 Training Captain vs CX A340 SO
One of the more recent resignations has an experienced A340 Training Captain resigning EK to join Cathay as a Second Officer.
Says it all for those thinking of joining EK.
Says it all for those thinking of joining EK.
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A post from one year ago. I had to read it a few times to remember what I had said and the intention of my transcipt. This should be interesting, a snapshot on opinions and life a year on. I will give it a go.
If my memory serves me right this would have been written just about the time we had been paid and received our "bonus" At that time from what I can remember the big boss had allowed the lesser bosses to part with 20%. I think I am right in saying at the time I wrote this we had received a 3% increment and 8%.
The first question is, how many have resigned since then. It certainly wasnt the number 200. I think following the pay rise it wasnt even 20. However this year, January onwards ,I think the figure 45 has been batted around. I am under the impression that this figure also includes the guys who have not turned up for courses. More about that later.
My first couple of paragraphs dealt with commands. What has changed since then. Firstly the Airbus guys are still waiting for their turn. The Boeing Fleet have now used all presently eligible upgrades for the moment. The Airbus have been offered a chance to have transition upgrades, not sure how many have taken up the offer. This includes the ex Boeing F/O's who were the last to go through transition upgrade and ended up on the Airbus. I am seeing some familiar names coming through from the airbus fleet now. The one thing that has changed is the DEC's. For that I stand corrected. Last year the only DECs coming through went to A310. Now they are coming to Boeing. I am led to believe that the number 90 was again suggested. Or more to the point required. Further to this, that number has not been reached. The EK roadshows have not amounted to much. The DECs we are getting generally speaking are candidates who have little or no experience on wide body, glass cockpit and world wide travel. It seems that the main body of candidates have come from 737's and such like. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Certainly a recent joiner from the US and is now being slated on this forum, may have sent a huge message to the outside world.
Recruitment is still going on. The change here is that the pilots have now become involved again. This I am glad about. My statement concerning people not joining still stands. Several senior bosses have been heard to say that they think 5 aircraft are going to be parked by august. We ran out of crews in January and I think I am right in saying 16 flights were cancelled. I dont think this was put down as crew shortages, but I am led to believe technical problems were stated as the reason for the cancellation of these flts. Something I also am led to believe will not be repeated. Theshow still goes on though and pilots are still coming here. The experience level has however significantly decreased. There is, in addition, a large increase in pilots not turning up for courses. eg, a course of 8 and 2 appear. I do however see posts on here about people still inquiring about whats it like in EK. I stand by my comment that they should come and find out for themselves and not base their opinions on things written here.
Resignations; I would be very interested to find out how many have actually resigned in the last 12 months. In addition, how many will resign in the next 6months. On the crew portal under duty you can still enter RG in the duty column. There have been only 3 in the last 3 months. One Boeing Capt and 2 F/O's. Thats all I can see. Unless more people are leaving. Many people write in that their resignation is in, but I do not see their names appearing. It may be worth opening a post as to who is leaving and we can then get an idea on numbers. My best guess by this time next year would be max 5% of the total pilot force here. That is only an educated guess. That would equate to about maybe 80 pilots.
As far as the package goes, we have had 2 increments and 15% in the last 2 years. Is it enough......NO. The question is though, the package as a whole. Here I mean the package not just the money. Is there any airline out there that offers significantly more. When I say significantly I mean in the range of 20% more. This would be the only amount or more that would tempt me to move, otherwise financially it it not worth it. (for me). I made a statement about other airlines last year, and with the exception of CX I dont think alot has changed. Everyone needs pilots, everyone is offering about the same as a package. The package suits some but not others. We are getting people coming in from Ryanair, as quick as we are loosing people to the same company. Maybe the 2 should meet in the middle and ask each other why they are leaving their respective companies.
Overall, the only thing that has changed my views from a year ago is the introduction of more DECs. I am not a big fan of this. The rumours of them getting more money last year was not entirely correct. The figure of 38,000 dhs a month was batted around for a while. This figure I am led to believe was quoted by the bosses. It did however include the pay and part of the package. It was not the cash payment alone each month. I am disturbed to hear this raise its head again. In additon a few replies on the site from pilots who have been offered this. Though I have not seen any DEC enter the company on this enhanced salary. I think from the EK perspective it would be a very very unwise move. The F/O package is still very inadequate. The dollar is now dropping, and the cost of living going up. That needs to be addressed more than anything.
For the future, and this is mere specualtion, I think they have tested the water with this payrise. I think it is inadequate by a long way. I think I am right in saying that in 1989 a mid financial year payrise was awarded (30%). This may happen if they park aircraft. Not necessarily to that amount, but something to plug the hole. I see a reshuffle in the senior management happening. Top man going side ways and 2 slightly less senior going up. The question that finally needs to be asked, is how much of an increase in pay would people actually have been satisfied with.
Kiwi, I hope this gives you some kind of insight into my views a year on. A year is a long time in the world of aviation. For me, I still enjoy my job and my life. I work hard but not too hard. A gentleman posted a quote the other day. He was from a charter airline in Europe. This is some thing I can identify with. He stated that He has not received his roster yet and when he does it will change many times before the end of the month. He is rostered 104 hours. The only message this sends to me is that the grass is not any greener.
If my memory serves me right this would have been written just about the time we had been paid and received our "bonus" At that time from what I can remember the big boss had allowed the lesser bosses to part with 20%. I think I am right in saying at the time I wrote this we had received a 3% increment and 8%.
The first question is, how many have resigned since then. It certainly wasnt the number 200. I think following the pay rise it wasnt even 20. However this year, January onwards ,I think the figure 45 has been batted around. I am under the impression that this figure also includes the guys who have not turned up for courses. More about that later.
My first couple of paragraphs dealt with commands. What has changed since then. Firstly the Airbus guys are still waiting for their turn. The Boeing Fleet have now used all presently eligible upgrades for the moment. The Airbus have been offered a chance to have transition upgrades, not sure how many have taken up the offer. This includes the ex Boeing F/O's who were the last to go through transition upgrade and ended up on the Airbus. I am seeing some familiar names coming through from the airbus fleet now. The one thing that has changed is the DEC's. For that I stand corrected. Last year the only DECs coming through went to A310. Now they are coming to Boeing. I am led to believe that the number 90 was again suggested. Or more to the point required. Further to this, that number has not been reached. The EK roadshows have not amounted to much. The DECs we are getting generally speaking are candidates who have little or no experience on wide body, glass cockpit and world wide travel. It seems that the main body of candidates have come from 737's and such like. It will be interesting to see how this pans out. Certainly a recent joiner from the US and is now being slated on this forum, may have sent a huge message to the outside world.
Recruitment is still going on. The change here is that the pilots have now become involved again. This I am glad about. My statement concerning people not joining still stands. Several senior bosses have been heard to say that they think 5 aircraft are going to be parked by august. We ran out of crews in January and I think I am right in saying 16 flights were cancelled. I dont think this was put down as crew shortages, but I am led to believe technical problems were stated as the reason for the cancellation of these flts. Something I also am led to believe will not be repeated. Theshow still goes on though and pilots are still coming here. The experience level has however significantly decreased. There is, in addition, a large increase in pilots not turning up for courses. eg, a course of 8 and 2 appear. I do however see posts on here about people still inquiring about whats it like in EK. I stand by my comment that they should come and find out for themselves and not base their opinions on things written here.
Resignations; I would be very interested to find out how many have actually resigned in the last 12 months. In addition, how many will resign in the next 6months. On the crew portal under duty you can still enter RG in the duty column. There have been only 3 in the last 3 months. One Boeing Capt and 2 F/O's. Thats all I can see. Unless more people are leaving. Many people write in that their resignation is in, but I do not see their names appearing. It may be worth opening a post as to who is leaving and we can then get an idea on numbers. My best guess by this time next year would be max 5% of the total pilot force here. That is only an educated guess. That would equate to about maybe 80 pilots.
As far as the package goes, we have had 2 increments and 15% in the last 2 years. Is it enough......NO. The question is though, the package as a whole. Here I mean the package not just the money. Is there any airline out there that offers significantly more. When I say significantly I mean in the range of 20% more. This would be the only amount or more that would tempt me to move, otherwise financially it it not worth it. (for me). I made a statement about other airlines last year, and with the exception of CX I dont think alot has changed. Everyone needs pilots, everyone is offering about the same as a package. The package suits some but not others. We are getting people coming in from Ryanair, as quick as we are loosing people to the same company. Maybe the 2 should meet in the middle and ask each other why they are leaving their respective companies.
Overall, the only thing that has changed my views from a year ago is the introduction of more DECs. I am not a big fan of this. The rumours of them getting more money last year was not entirely correct. The figure of 38,000 dhs a month was batted around for a while. This figure I am led to believe was quoted by the bosses. It did however include the pay and part of the package. It was not the cash payment alone each month. I am disturbed to hear this raise its head again. In additon a few replies on the site from pilots who have been offered this. Though I have not seen any DEC enter the company on this enhanced salary. I think from the EK perspective it would be a very very unwise move. The F/O package is still very inadequate. The dollar is now dropping, and the cost of living going up. That needs to be addressed more than anything.
For the future, and this is mere specualtion, I think they have tested the water with this payrise. I think it is inadequate by a long way. I think I am right in saying that in 1989 a mid financial year payrise was awarded (30%). This may happen if they park aircraft. Not necessarily to that amount, but something to plug the hole. I see a reshuffle in the senior management happening. Top man going side ways and 2 slightly less senior going up. The question that finally needs to be asked, is how much of an increase in pay would people actually have been satisfied with.
Kiwi, I hope this gives you some kind of insight into my views a year on. A year is a long time in the world of aviation. For me, I still enjoy my job and my life. I work hard but not too hard. A gentleman posted a quote the other day. He was from a charter airline in Europe. This is some thing I can identify with. He stated that He has not received his roster yet and when he does it will change many times before the end of the month. He is rostered 104 hours. The only message this sends to me is that the grass is not any greener.
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Very good post Uplink, the facts without emotion. You quote the 30% mid 89,however, don't you think that the management use the overtime to try and hide their actual required pilot numbers? Unfortunately, individuals working on days off won't help improve our situation either, obviously for some this is a financial decision and they may have no choice. I am going to watch the portal in the ensuing two months with great interest to see how successful the Jetstar campaign has been. My prediction is 14 captain resignations and fortunate for EK that Jetstar are not interviewing any 777 pilots, as this figure would no doubt increase. I am not saying that the Jetstar package is a good one, by any stretch of the imagination, however, for a lot of Aussies it offers a chance to get home. Prune overall is a lot quieter than normal, guys would appear to be now actively searching for alternatives and have realised that EK are probably never going to change any of their policies. Even the most hopeful have now resigned themselves to this.
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3 is not the answer
There has been many more than 3 pilots leaving in the last month. ED said about 3-4 weeks ago that there were 42 pilots since the begining of the year. I know personally 5 Airbus captains that have submitted their resignations in the last 4 weeks and one is that metioned TRI going to CX as a 2nd Officer.
Emirates long ago took away the resignation list from the crew portal so I am surprised as anyone that 3 pilots have their names listed there. Maybe, just maybe those 3 names are just a rouse to get the word out that "only" 3 pilots have left when we all know that many many more have left. All according to ED not the pilot rumor website. Your mileage may vary.
Emirates long ago took away the resignation list from the crew portal so I am surprised as anyone that 3 pilots have their names listed there. Maybe, just maybe those 3 names are just a rouse to get the word out that "only" 3 pilots have left when we all know that many many more have left. All according to ED not the pilot rumor website. Your mileage may vary.
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Doubtless the same could be said about the ex Ryanair Training Captain who joined EK as an F/O around two years ago and now appears on the resignation list for June. (TRI to S/O CX not on that list by the way).
And I doubt his annual bonus will cover his bond.
Seven on the list for June, at that rate the recruiting and training workload will be increased by 47% over and above the requirements for the present program of one B777 arriving each month.
And then there's the 380.....
And I doubt his annual bonus will cover his bond.
Seven on the list for June, at that rate the recruiting and training workload will be increased by 47% over and above the requirements for the present program of one B777 arriving each month.
And then there's the 380.....
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Are not most resignations for personal reasons....why would you be so foolish to state the obvious reasons for leaving at your exit interview. I kind of remember something about matches and bridges...
Your not going to change any thing here and the H.R. guy would proberly sharpen his pencil and write
Liked your post Uplink, Im trying to work out how you didn't run out of ink or patience.
My money is on 50 Plus guys resigned so far
Your not going to change any thing here and the H.R. guy would proberly sharpen his pencil and write
"angry young Chap, well balanced though has a chip on both shoulders how the hell did he slip through the cracks mmm maybe we should employ more Human Resource People to make sure Angry Young Chaps do not slip through the cracks.
My money is on 50 Plus guys resigned so far
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Hi Uplink,
I appreciate your reply and thank you. Obviously the payrise/inflation issue will have some bearing on your happiness in the future. But I was mainly interested to know if your enjoyment in the job was still apparent today as it was a year ago. You have kindly answered that.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Kiwi.
I appreciate your reply and thank you. Obviously the payrise/inflation issue will have some bearing on your happiness in the future. But I was mainly interested to know if your enjoyment in the job was still apparent today as it was a year ago. You have kindly answered that.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Kiwi.
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EK Resignations
Hi Guys,
I understand that 10 Trg Capts have just resigned to go to either Jet Star or Airbus. I checked the portal and in June and July we had 6 Capts and 5 F/Os go, looking at the names I am pretty sure they are not the 10 from above.
If we add them all together, the annual attrition rate is running at about 6% and we have lost a bunch of our Training Capacity. So what is the solution? Is anyone actually lead turning the recruitment to cover the losses or are their heads still in the sand. I suppose, as I write, the managers are trying to work out the policy of how to employ DECs ahead of qualified 3 year F/Os on the 330. Why fix the system when you can add another band aid?
I understand that 10 Trg Capts have just resigned to go to either Jet Star or Airbus. I checked the portal and in June and July we had 6 Capts and 5 F/Os go, looking at the names I am pretty sure they are not the 10 from above.
If we add them all together, the annual attrition rate is running at about 6% and we have lost a bunch of our Training Capacity. So what is the solution? Is anyone actually lead turning the recruitment to cover the losses or are their heads still in the sand. I suppose, as I write, the managers are trying to work out the policy of how to employ DECs ahead of qualified 3 year F/Os on the 330. Why fix the system when you can add another band aid?
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3 month notice..
If these guys resigned end of june, they stil have to work untill end of september, so don't expect their names to show up on the portal before september.
On the other hand, you can expect an email with some training vacancies pretty soon, since they do need trainers desperately...
MR8
On the other hand, you can expect an email with some training vacancies pretty soon, since they do need trainers desperately...
MR8
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There's a story in this week Flight International about the increase in alt busts and air traffic control violations (accidental) in Australia by EK.
How much of this can be put down to fatigue?
I think EK's entry requirements are way too high and is affecting the number of new pilots EK can hire. Why not look at turboprop pilots for example?
The argument that they lack jet ttime is bollocks, it's aviation exposure and experience that matter, jet or turboprop. Some turboprops are way harder to fly than a jet in any case, ie, the Q400 is a pig to fly I'm told.
Blue Foot
How much of this can be put down to fatigue?
I think EK's entry requirements are way too high and is affecting the number of new pilots EK can hire. Why not look at turboprop pilots for example?
The argument that they lack jet ttime is bollocks, it's aviation exposure and experience that matter, jet or turboprop. Some turboprops are way harder to fly than a jet in any case, ie, the Q400 is a pig to fly I'm told.
Blue Foot