Life after EK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
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Fatigue may be a factor, but I think there are other possible causes.
The implementation of FANS, CPDLC and ADS has meant that most of the Australian over-water controlling is now automated and communication is through a keypad.
As there are numerous subtle differences around the world on how this style of controlling is achieved, there is opportunity for error and misuse of the new system, which voice control overcomes much more naturally.
Finally the Oz ATC chappies have to rate as the most anally retentive, nit picking bunch on our global network. You really get the feeling they are dying to find fault. I am sure that Mr Dixon would also encourage any finger pointing with regular boxes of doughnuts to the boys as well
The implementation of FANS, CPDLC and ADS has meant that most of the Australian over-water controlling is now automated and communication is through a keypad.
As there are numerous subtle differences around the world on how this style of controlling is achieved, there is opportunity for error and misuse of the new system, which voice control overcomes much more naturally.
Finally the Oz ATC chappies have to rate as the most anally retentive, nit picking bunch on our global network. You really get the feeling they are dying to find fault. I am sure that Mr Dixon would also encourage any finger pointing with regular boxes of doughnuts to the boys as well
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 60
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A bit off topic guys!
But you have to keep in mind that Australia and Qantas invented aviation and the only correct way is theirs. What you can get away with in bombays air space will get you in trouble in OZ. PLay by their rules and they can't make fun of you. with at least six hours in the seat there is plenty of time to read about them. Even the locals find it hard keeping ATC happy down there.
But you have to keep in mind that Australia and Qantas invented aviation and the only correct way is theirs. What you can get away with in bombays air space will get you in trouble in OZ. PLay by their rules and they can't make fun of you. with at least six hours in the seat there is plenty of time to read about them. Even the locals find it hard keeping ATC happy down there.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gulf playing Golf
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Azzuri and Blue Foot,
The Q400 is not a pig to fly or underpowered. Actually overpowered if anything. Rotates to 18 ANU as per SOP. That more than most jets. Problems in the start phase, but that is normal to all new launches. Just look at the A380....
I agree people coming from turbo props would fit just fine here. We have a bunch of guyes who just have piston seminoles, when they arrive. The cadets. That work out fine after the bridge course.
There are people here who came straight off turbo props and have done just fine.
Best of luck
The Q400 is not a pig to fly or underpowered. Actually overpowered if anything. Rotates to 18 ANU as per SOP. That more than most jets. Problems in the start phase, but that is normal to all new launches. Just look at the A380....
I agree people coming from turbo props would fit just fine here. We have a bunch of guyes who just have piston seminoles, when they arrive. The cadets. That work out fine after the bridge course.
There are people here who came straight off turbo props and have done just fine.
Best of luck
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: London
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"So don't blame Australia, it's a twisted form of hero-worship of the English that caused the situation....."
Good grief! Now you're blaming the English! Get over it guys. And if you're looking for good controllers look no further than England. Up with the very best. Efficient, relaxed, professional. Not stroppy and anal like their antipodean cousins.
The 'retentiveness' of the Aussie controllers reflects a national malaise. In a country with a reputation for being laid back I've never seen so much red tape outside of the third world! With ATC, include customs and immigration, police, bus and ferry drivers, pilots (of course) and even ice cream sellers. They're all the same - big issues to resolve, lots of past to get over.
Taking cover...!
Good grief! Now you're blaming the English! Get over it guys. And if you're looking for good controllers look no further than England. Up with the very best. Efficient, relaxed, professional. Not stroppy and anal like their antipodean cousins.
The 'retentiveness' of the Aussie controllers reflects a national malaise. In a country with a reputation for being laid back I've never seen so much red tape outside of the third world! With ATC, include customs and immigration, police, bus and ferry drivers, pilots (of course) and even ice cream sellers. They're all the same - big issues to resolve, lots of past to get over.
Taking cover...!
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: The Grand Sandpit
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As a Brit EK Boeing driver never really found a problem with Aussie ATC. Sure a bit retentive but the ATC infrastructure is excellent. When ATC screwed up going into Sydney the other day most apologetic. No drama. Certainly a breath of fresh air after having enjoyed the skills of Jakarta and Bali for a few hours.
I feel some of the problem may be the ACARS setup on the bus. I believe it is not very user friendly.
One question though. Why no Cat 2 ILS's. You do get fog!
CRS
I feel some of the problem may be the ACARS setup on the bus. I believe it is not very user friendly.
One question though. Why no Cat 2 ILS's. You do get fog!
CRS
Hi CRS,
Some good news for you . . .Melbourne is getting a CAT 2 ILS on Rwy16, and a CAT 1 ILS on Rwy34 (currently requires a VOR/DME approach).
No such plans for Sydney, however. Most fog events at SYD occur under light NW drainage flow, so Rwy34L would be the desired location for a CAT 2/3 ILS, but no space for approach lights (being overwater) prevents it - so I'm told!
VS.
Some good news for you . . .Melbourne is getting a CAT 2 ILS on Rwy16, and a CAT 1 ILS on Rwy34 (currently requires a VOR/DME approach).
No such plans for Sydney, however. Most fog events at SYD occur under light NW drainage flow, so Rwy34L would be the desired location for a CAT 2/3 ILS, but no space for approach lights (being overwater) prevents it - so I'm told!
VS.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Up north
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Originally Posted by tomuchwork
...and pilots are quitting and starting over a job everywhere in the world. Just have a close look at the european airlines. 10 leave - 15 new will come. That`s it....
I think this is very much true if you are looking for rated, qualified crew. ie jet rated with 3-4000 hrs + experience.....ANY company will be able to get cadets and low hour, self sponsored pilots, regardless of what kind of deal they are offering...Hell, just look at us in the big orange world! However, there are tons of short haul jobs available in Europe at the moment, so we are even struggling to attract those!!
At the moment it looks like (not that I have all the info on EK, faaar from) people are getting pushed around a bit too much and this info is slowly getting around to all of us outside EK and people get more and more careful when taking the decision to got to the sand pit to "make the big cash and live in the sun"....
What puzzles me is that, there is enough money around in EK to attract the right people, in the right amounts to run whatever operation they would like.... In Europe it is not quite the same situation and the companys are struggling to make any profits at all....
Join Date: Nov 2002
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"in Europe carriers fail to make profits"
British Airways announced a pre-tax profit of £620 million for the year to March 31, 2006 (2005: £513 million profit). The pre-tax profit for the fourth quarter was £91 million (2005: £6 million loss). Operating profit for the year was £705 million (2005: £556 million profit) and £93 million for the quarter (2005: £46 million profit).
I think Lufty is similar and so on and so on.
British Airways announced a pre-tax profit of £620 million for the year to March 31, 2006 (2005: £513 million profit). The pre-tax profit for the fourth quarter was £91 million (2005: £6 million loss). Operating profit for the year was £705 million (2005: £556 million profit) and £93 million for the quarter (2005: £46 million profit).
I think Lufty is similar and so on and so on.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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You mention two companies where that is correct...What about SAS, Iberia, Alitalia.....And in the states - American, Delta, NW, United etc etc....just read that two of them agreed to new, more, pay cuts....
So, my question remains...Why are they not just paying the right people to do the job...?
So, my question remains...Why are they not just paying the right people to do the job...?
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Stockholm / Sweden
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It wasn't the Wright Brothers that flew first, it was the Wong Brothers and they are from Brisbane!
...well -that might -or might well not - be true forthe first ENGINE powered flight;
however,the merit fort he first UNPOWERDED gliding flight plus writing a book about the theory offlying goes definitively to the German OTTO LILIENTHAL in Berlin in the early 1880 ies-
well before the Wright brothers did start building their plane ...
Actually, they'd been shocked by the deadly accident of Lilienthal in his flying machine, and tried to learn from his deadly mistake -
and they did also have a translation of his Book of Theory of Flying (Der Vogelflug als Grundlage der Fliegekunst in Original German from 1889)
...well -that might -or might well not - be true forthe first ENGINE powered flight;
however,the merit fort he first UNPOWERDED gliding flight plus writing a book about the theory offlying goes definitively to the German OTTO LILIENTHAL in Berlin in the early 1880 ies-
well before the Wright brothers did start building their plane ...
Actually, they'd been shocked by the deadly accident of Lilienthal in his flying machine, and tried to learn from his deadly mistake -
and they did also have a translation of his Book of Theory of Flying (Der Vogelflug als Grundlage der Fliegekunst in Original German from 1889)
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Aussie Aussie Aussie
On November 12, 1894, Lawrence Hargrave, the Australian inventor of the box kite, linked four of his kites together, added a sling seat, and flew 16 feet. By demonstrating to a sceptical public that it was possible to build a safe and stable flying machine, Hargrave opened the door to other inventors and pioneers. The Hargrave-designed box kite, with its improved lift-to-drag ratio, was to provide the theoretical wing model that allowed the development of the first generation of European (and American) airplanes.
In the 1890s a small number of inventive technologists were working to translate infant aviation theory into airplanes. Leading the race was Hargrave, a quintessential nineteenth-century gentleman scientist of independent means. A gifted explorer, astronomer, amateur historian, and practical inventor, Hargrave devoted most of his life to constructing a machine that would fly. He believed passionately in open communication within the scientific community and would not patent his inventions. Instead, he scrupulously published the results of his experiments.
The first successful aircraft incorporated three crucial aeronautical concepts developed by Hargrave: the cellular box-kite wing, the curved wing surface, and the thick leading wing edge (aerofoil). The Wright brothers had access to Hargrave's work through the aviation annuals published by James Means, and Octave Chanute's Progress in Flying Machines. Chanute, who corresponded with the Wright brothers, devoted a section of his book to Hargrave's experiments. But the Wright brothers, constrained by politics and patent problems of their time, admitted no influences.
The direct line of Hargrave's influence on the evolution of flying is more discernible in Europe. The French (who thought that France was the cradle of aviation) freely acknowledged Hargrave's influence: Alberto Santos-Dumont was the first European to fly a heavier-than-air machine constructed of Hargrave box kites in 1906. When Gabriel Voisin built the first commercially available aircraft, based on the stable lifting surfaces of Hargrave's box kites, he called them "Hargraves."
In 1889 Hargrave revolutionised engine technology by inventing the radial rotary engine, which reappeared (unacknowledged) in modified form in 1908 as the French Gnome engine. Although as early as 1892 Hargrave had voiced his opposition to the idea of the "connection of the flying machine with dynamite missiles," the rotating radial engine was extensively used in military aircraft until it was superseded by new engine technologies many years later.
Hargrave's concern for the peaceful promulgation of knowledge was evidenced in his concern for the safe placement of his working models in an environment open to the public. The only museum that would meet his terms was the Deutsches Technological Museum in Munich. It is ironic that most of Hargrave's 176 working models were destroyed in the Allied aerial bombardment of Germany during World War II. The 25 surviving models were restored in the 1960s to Sydney, Australia's Powerhouse Museum, which is staging an exhibition to mark the centennial of Hargrave's first flight.
Octave Chanute wrote in 1893 that "If there be one man more than another who deserves to succeed in flying, that man is Mister Lawrence Hargrave of Sydney." But Hargrave never did solve the power-to-weight ratio problem. His 1902 design was put to the test in 1992 when students at the University of Sydney rebuilt his aircraft from the original blueprint, replacing Hargrave's power plant with a modern one. ...It flew.
Compton's Encyclopedia Web Link - Electronic Library
© 1995 Omni Publications International Ltd.
Webb, Janeen; Dann, Jack, Lawrence Hargrave: unheralded aeroplane engineer.., Vol.17, Omni, 01-01-1995, pp 24(1).
In the 1890s a small number of inventive technologists were working to translate infant aviation theory into airplanes. Leading the race was Hargrave, a quintessential nineteenth-century gentleman scientist of independent means. A gifted explorer, astronomer, amateur historian, and practical inventor, Hargrave devoted most of his life to constructing a machine that would fly. He believed passionately in open communication within the scientific community and would not patent his inventions. Instead, he scrupulously published the results of his experiments.
The first successful aircraft incorporated three crucial aeronautical concepts developed by Hargrave: the cellular box-kite wing, the curved wing surface, and the thick leading wing edge (aerofoil). The Wright brothers had access to Hargrave's work through the aviation annuals published by James Means, and Octave Chanute's Progress in Flying Machines. Chanute, who corresponded with the Wright brothers, devoted a section of his book to Hargrave's experiments. But the Wright brothers, constrained by politics and patent problems of their time, admitted no influences.
The direct line of Hargrave's influence on the evolution of flying is more discernible in Europe. The French (who thought that France was the cradle of aviation) freely acknowledged Hargrave's influence: Alberto Santos-Dumont was the first European to fly a heavier-than-air machine constructed of Hargrave box kites in 1906. When Gabriel Voisin built the first commercially available aircraft, based on the stable lifting surfaces of Hargrave's box kites, he called them "Hargraves."
In 1889 Hargrave revolutionised engine technology by inventing the radial rotary engine, which reappeared (unacknowledged) in modified form in 1908 as the French Gnome engine. Although as early as 1892 Hargrave had voiced his opposition to the idea of the "connection of the flying machine with dynamite missiles," the rotating radial engine was extensively used in military aircraft until it was superseded by new engine technologies many years later.
Hargrave's concern for the peaceful promulgation of knowledge was evidenced in his concern for the safe placement of his working models in an environment open to the public. The only museum that would meet his terms was the Deutsches Technological Museum in Munich. It is ironic that most of Hargrave's 176 working models were destroyed in the Allied aerial bombardment of Germany during World War II. The 25 surviving models were restored in the 1960s to Sydney, Australia's Powerhouse Museum, which is staging an exhibition to mark the centennial of Hargrave's first flight.
Octave Chanute wrote in 1893 that "If there be one man more than another who deserves to succeed in flying, that man is Mister Lawrence Hargrave of Sydney." But Hargrave never did solve the power-to-weight ratio problem. His 1902 design was put to the test in 1992 when students at the University of Sydney rebuilt his aircraft from the original blueprint, replacing Hargrave's power plant with a modern one. ...It flew.
Compton's Encyclopedia Web Link - Electronic Library
© 1995 Omni Publications International Ltd.
Webb, Janeen; Dann, Jack, Lawrence Hargrave: unheralded aeroplane engineer.., Vol.17, Omni, 01-01-1995, pp 24(1).
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: dubai
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Leaving EK
Along with many others, I'm trying to complete my termination with EK and get as far away from the place as soon as possible. As expected, EK are not very cooperative with the process. Any advice from recent terminees would be appreciated.
One find so far is not to use Freightworks (owned by EK), as they will rip you off on the port-to-door segment (EK repatriation only covers door-to-port). Any of the other freight companies will charge a lot less overall.
Also make sure you find out what the accommodation department are going to try to charge you before you leave - once you're out of the country they will charge as they please!
Leaving EK is harder than joining - good luck!
One find so far is not to use Freightworks (owned by EK), as they will rip you off on the port-to-door segment (EK repatriation only covers door-to-port). Any of the other freight companies will charge a lot less overall.
Also make sure you find out what the accommodation department are going to try to charge you before you leave - once you're out of the country they will charge as they please!
Leaving EK is harder than joining - good luck!
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Bye
What did you expect shag? You have been used S****ed for the use of a better expression. Used and thrown away. This is what we shall all have, despite years of honourable service. Wecome, or should I say ~ farewell the the Middle East.
Good luck
Good luck
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
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Makes sense, their last opportunity to grab back every dirham they can from you. Good luck, let us know who you do get a good deal from, for future reference, when I pull the pin 