Life after EK

[mini cooper]

Simple fact:

Ek F/O salary NOT enough if you are european and still have debts to pay back home ie house. If you sell everything and take the plunge into dubai it is sufficient. Don't know how it is for everyone else but suspect it is slightly less of a problem.

Ek Capt salary OK, you can be comfortable, but don't expect to save much as a junior guy, gets better as time goes on!!

Leavers: talked to yet another guy the other day who has resigned. I now know of 8 and thats just on my fleet.

[Believe Brother]

Hey Don, who let the dogs out? woof woof

[Uplink]

Hey Quod Boy,

My head is not buried in the sand. What is normal in this day and age. 30 resignations out of 1200. You have obviously led a sheltered life. I have seen 35 out of 300 in my last company in the same amount of time. Do you know what we got, an extra 1% on pay. Big deal. What will happen is that a few more people will leave. It will top out at 70 or thereabouts. IMHO.

Then precisely nothing will happen and the world will keep turning. But do you know what, the guys who have left will have my respect. They will be voting with their feet. The thing you have to look at is the people joining, that is where its going to hurt most. In the general scheme of things we have had our pay rise for the year. Nothing else will change this side of April next year. People will still come, the courses are full. There are still one or two places but they will be filled. Believe me. The people coming you all are right, they are not European, but my guess is from places like Mauritius and Jamaica and the minor carriers around the world. When they stop coming then the company will be worried. Until then the company have dangled the carrot. We have had 11% and a months bonus. Thats enough in the company's eyes. If it wasnt more would leave.

Is it enough for you or are you going to depart these fair shores. If not then you will sit here and moan some more and still nothing will happen. The petrol bit is just a perk of the job.

[Shake]

Mini - Agree with your points but have to add that captains salary is not OK for the same reasons the F/O salary isn't. They are both affected by local inflation and continue to lag behind 'equivilent' carriers... obviously not the ones looked at in the recent 'remuneration survey'. Getting into the LHS doesn't solve the long term financial issues. What it does do is consolidate command hours on 'demand' types with the view of leaving to get a job which can offer some longer term stability.

Sanddancer make the excellent point that currently pay fails to provide adequately for the present, let alone the future.

Uplink - perhaps you are right. However you say that in the scheme of things not much is going to change BUT it already has fundamentally as the traditional catchment for pilots has changed to the areas you mentioned. DECs have changed things, management attitude has changed things, T&Cs are changing things.

The face of EK is changing and it will take some excellent management to get it back on track and heading in the right direction...that's the worrying bit.

[BYMONEK]

UPLINK

Please don't consider our increment in with the pay deal. We got 8% and NOT 11%. That 3% is our reward for moving up the seniority list. We should never consider that as part of a pay rise.

As an aside, what's the rumour regarding some meeting on 7th. Just Captains and managers i've heard. Any info mate?

Maybe another 7% to get us up to the 15% promised by the government.......

[QNH1013]

Where do the EK F/O's leave to for better conditions and similar aircraft type?
Cathay Pacific? British Airways?

[donpizmeov]

Believem Bro,
I have heard people refer to the Monkeyman as being Barking...but was not sure that this is what they meant. Truely inspirational leadership!!! I live in awe...or is that fear?

I believe he also has a dislike to small rodents as well. Might be professional jealousy.

Don

[typhoonpilot]

Where do the EK F/O's leave to for better conditions and similar aircraft type?

Of those that I know personally:

One back to OZ to cropdust and raise stud cattle

One F.O. back to Ryanair as a TRI

Two to Virgin Atlantic

One who quit on an ASR, destination unknown.

Ran into a guy in Longs who is going back to SAS.

One Captain to Dragonair

If Virgin Pacific ( or whatever it will be called ) starts in OZ and Korean start hiring look for 50 Captains to be gone in a flash. Ouch, that will hurt. Also looking for the Japanese carriers to be hiring in a few years time ( can you say, "USD 15,000 per month based in North America" )

If the FI article runs true about a deal to get rid of the A340-500s and possibly the A340-600s going to Jet/Sahara along with the A380 being delayed into 2007 I would hope the company sees the light and starts transition upgrades or you'll see quite a few unhappy campers heading for the door.

What is really amazing is that three of the above mentioned dearly departed are 777s F.O.s, only one of whom was affected by the changing goal posts. None of whom would be affected by the DECs.

Once upon a time I worked for a carrier with all of 40 pilots. Five of us ( all captains ) were hired by a foreign carrier ( as DECs LHR ). All five of us went in to the boss and said we would stay in return for a 35% pay raise ( we were grossly underpaid ). The answer was no, so we all left. In the following months the company had to raise the pay to what we had asked for in order to obtain/retain guys. Unfortunately for them they had lost their five best Captains and in a few years time had their AOC revoked for numerous violations. A pity really, as the company had been very profitable and never had an accident or serious incident.

Draw your own parallels


TP

[BYMONEK]

QNH1013

Good question. Considering we have several pilots here from BA, such as ex B777 F/O and ex Captain ( not DEC may I add), then it's unlikely people would leave to work for BA. At least not on the basis of money alone. If guys don't settle here then sure but, in my opinion, they would be worse off in many ways. Starting salary is around £42K so that would give an approx £2700-3000 per month,after tax and including allowances. No long haul command for AT LEAST 15 years and bottom of the seniority/bid list for the next few years. Mainly statesides with 24 hrs off and probably 5-7 trips/month. No final salary pension so a realistic pension pot for a 35yr old joining now would be around £150k. That would give him/her around £9,OOO p/a with current annuities @6%. The Emirates prov fund may not be great but at least all the money is yours, as and when you need it.
Cathay on the other hand........................

[Shake]

QNH: It doesn't have to be a 777 or a 300/340 and you don't have to look far for better conditions. 15 years to command doesn't matter if you are getting paid more as a Captain at EK, even more with allowances, after tax. The guys from BA (2?) who are here are those in their mid to late 30s, who entered flying relatively late and for whom BA would not offer the 'full package' in a relatively short career when retiring at 55.

The reality is that the bottom line is money. EK is no BA. Currently there is no viable long term future here if you wish to retire back in Europe or elsewhere for that matter. It is a stepping stone for commands and then off to a contract somewhere which offers the money needed to get out of this job before you're carried out.

[Trashed Aviator]

You all underestimate the Virgin Australia longhaul op.
There is about 200 Aussies here and probably almost as many S/Africans many who have visas for Australia.
So how many of these would go to fly a 340 from home on the same as EK pay and considering the Australian tax system has been overhauled and salary is quite good , houses and rent is still very cheap on a world standard.
Many crew are interested in this 1 even f/os due for command.
So why not 200 or so over about 6 months...............

[ekcandidate]

Typhoonpilot,

I am unable to obtain a copy of the Flight International magazine that ran the article of which you speak.

Is it possible for you, or anyone else who has a copy of it, to possibly post a copy here or PM me a copy of the article?

It would be greatly appreciated.

[ernestkgann]

Nothing to do with resignations I'm sorry but have alook at the Ek380 thread on Dunnunda.

[411A]

It would appear that not only the pilots at EK are upset.


Source: ATWonline.com

Other News
Wednesday June 1, 2005
Dubai-based Emirates came under concerted attack by rival airline CEOs at an industry forum held during the IATA AGM in Tokyo earlier this week. The extraordinary debate, which lasted more than an hour Monday, started when British Airways CEO Rod Eddington posed a question about whether airlines should or should not be government-owned or protected. That set the scene for an all-out assault from the assembled CEOs, who called into question the transparency of Emirates' balance sheet and also wanted to know how the airline was going to finance its huge orders for 45 555-seat A380s and 50 A340-600s and 777-300ERs. "Where are you going to get the money?" Air France-KLM Group Vice Chairman Leo van Wijk asked bluntly. In a terse reply, Emirates President Tim Clark, who maintains that the carrier does not get a cent from the government, said the books are transparent and there are no "shady bits or pages missing." The airline will acquire the A380s on operating leases that will be financed through cash flow, he added. Subsequently, Clark told ATWOnline, "When we started in the mid-'80s, we looked at the industry mistakes and legacy problems and started with a clean sheet of paper--we are the long-haul, low-cost airline." Qantas CEO Geoff Dixon, a speaker at the forum along with Clark and Air Canada Chairman Robert Milton, also took a swipe at Emirates, claiming that it enjoys the luxury of being owned by the government, which also owns the airport and sets aviation policy. "Any airline CEO that can control the airport and the government would be making a lot more money," said Dixon. "You can't be the owner and the regulator--it is inherently wrong." Milton, who succeeded Air France-KLM Group Chairman Jean-Cyril Spinetta as chairman of the IATA board of governors at the AGM, accused Emirates of capacity dumping, declaring that "what Emirates was doing in Australia was outrageous." Clark riposted that "while Emirates is flying into Australia six times a day, Qantas is making record profits."

[ekcandidate]

Thanks to typhoonpilot for the PM.

[turtleneck]

from where you come from 411:
17 billion usd for the ailing us-airlines after 9/11. did others get something? - direct subsidy.
chapter 11, including the right of protected airlines to undercut fares of unprotected competitors, especially non-us.
subsidy to implement the new, unilateraly us-imposed door-locking mechanism regulations for us-airlines. did others get that? - some, however again direct subsidy.
UK:
written off aircraft as a present to BA some years ago ....
France:
look i.e. to how much AF has to pay for it's admin building at Roissy.
etc. etc.
EK's no angel. but don't raise your voices too much, you would look like the pathetic house-speakers of Boeing and Airbus about respective gvt aids.

[typhoonpilot]

Here is another article from today:

Airbus Says Delivery of More of Its A380 'Superjumbo' Jets to Be Pushed Back by Up to Six Months


PARIS (AP) -- Airbus, which said in April that the first delivery of its A380 "superjumbo" would be delayed, admitted Wednesday that deliveries to other early customers will also be pushed back by up to six months. Qantas said it will seek compensation for the lag.
ADVERTISEMENT


"We've now spoken to A380 customers and told them how they will be affected," Airbus spokesman David Velupillai said. "The delays range from 2-6 months depending on the customer."

Velupillai was speaking after Air France confirmed it will be forced to postpone the planned April 2007 launch of A380 services.

"Airbus has advised us that there will be a delivery delay," said a Paris-based spokesman for Air France-KLM, which groups the merged French and Dutch carriers. He declined to say how long the delay would be or whether Air France will seek compensation.

On April 27, the day of the A380's first test flight, Airbus had announced that deliveries to launch customer Singapore Airlines Ltd. would take place in the "second half of 2006" instead of March, as originally planned.

Now, however, a string of customers including Australia's Qantas Airways Ltd. say they will also be affected as the delays have a domino effect on Airbus production schedules.

Qantas said Wednesday that the first of its 12 new A380s will arrive six months late because of "manufacturing issues," and confirmed it will be seeking compensation.

"This is disappointing, given that we have met all of Airbus' deadlines for Qantas specifications," said CEO Geoff Dixon. All airlines with early A380 orders are going to have to wait, he added.

Singapore Airlines CEO Chew Choon Seng has also said the carrier plans to demand compensation.

Airbus declined to comment on its exposure to claims, insisting that the terms of its contracts with customers remain confidential. But it played down their potential impact on the program's profitability.

In any aircraft program, Velupillai said, "deliveries begin slowly in the early years and pick up pace later on, so the effects will be limited."


Wonder where we fit in this ? I always said that we wouldn't see one flying for us until 2007, maybe I'll have to start saying 2008 now

TP

[LHR Rain]

Now with the 380 delayed for sure, not a rumour and possibly the 340-600 not coming along with the 500 going to India will Airbus FO ever get their comands?

This might be a way to get around the lack of pilots EK currently has on the property. Get rid of some Airbuses and let the 777 come, the airplane EK really likes, while maybe down the road they will allow transition upgrades so to throw a bone to the pilot group.

I would like to know for sure how pilots are not showing up for courses and how many EK pilots have actually resigned. Probably no way of knowing for sure. I hope your right Typhoon about all the jobs opening up in Asia. I am sure that none of EK pilots will let the door hit them in the backside on the way out to better jobs.

[Trashed Aviator]

Simple resign and come back as a 777 F/o....
If you have 2 years with EK already you will get a command in 1 year on the 777 when you come back..............

[journeyman]

LHR Rain,

So the -600s aren't coming and the -500s are going to India are they? Good one.
That's what I like about you - you never let the facts get in the way of a good story.