Operations into Dubai - can they be improved?
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If I can add my 2 Dhs worth...(5 Dhs with inflation!)
I've seen stellar controlling and I've seen pilots that can manage drag and desent profiles to leave all the non-believers in awe. Considering neither knew squat about the other, to see how a good mesh between them works and brings a virtually constant descent to fruition will bring a tear to your eye. Unfortunately I've also sat on the edge of my seat watching how little understanding of either becomes apparent from pilots I've flown with, and the demonstrated lack of forethought from the other side of the radio that there seems to be no right or wrong.
In support of the arrivals sector about comments from others here, with LHR controllers there are fewer "windows" of altitude and speed on published arrival procedures. Unless there is no traffic and ATC waives some of the restrictions, he knows you will be "here" at this "specific altitude" doing "this speed" without question. You will enter the published hold at the regulated speed. Then it's just a matter of breaking you off the hold and issuing minimal vectors to final, to comply with the tower's spacing requirements. It's the design of the system, not so much the ability of the individual controllers (although they are good!). As has been stated on other threads on the forum, we as pilots are just as quilty of non compliance of "instructions" (note the difference as to ""requests") that throws the "good" controllers for a loop. I also believe there are individuals on the ground here that are struggling with the concept and implementation of the "efficient" side of ATC. Perhaps just through sheer inexperience. The region is not famous for providing a sound "package" anylonger for anyone, so the idea of "skimming the cream off the top" is laughable on both fronts.(they do manage a few golden ones on occaision though. All come here for different reasons).
In many of the airports I have flown to all over the world I find generally the most limiting item in the equation is the regulations the controllers have to follow, with perhaps a smidgon of the controllers lack of appreciation for what the latest generation of aircraft are capable of and the pilot's inability to manage it properly.
Having done a tour of several ATC centers in a couple major traffic zones (and here in DXB too
) I've seen there are always two sides of the story with neither party in hand of all the details of the other.
As you can gather I'm well in support of mutual "Fam" experiences from both sides. It doesn't take much to enlighten either party. Can't speak from ATCO's here but assuming your being squeezed as much as we are (hey it's 2006 in the ME, what's new of late?) you've probably got way better things to do with your very little precious time off than to take a trip again to the airport.
Perhaps the company could give us 2-3 hours "credit" for the experience...
...don't get me going on that "cost neutral" issue. I'd be typing here all night.
...resume's to other carriers that is...
I've seen stellar controlling and I've seen pilots that can manage drag and desent profiles to leave all the non-believers in awe. Considering neither knew squat about the other, to see how a good mesh between them works and brings a virtually constant descent to fruition will bring a tear to your eye. Unfortunately I've also sat on the edge of my seat watching how little understanding of either becomes apparent from pilots I've flown with, and the demonstrated lack of forethought from the other side of the radio that there seems to be no right or wrong.
In support of the arrivals sector about comments from others here, with LHR controllers there are fewer "windows" of altitude and speed on published arrival procedures. Unless there is no traffic and ATC waives some of the restrictions, he knows you will be "here" at this "specific altitude" doing "this speed" without question. You will enter the published hold at the regulated speed. Then it's just a matter of breaking you off the hold and issuing minimal vectors to final, to comply with the tower's spacing requirements. It's the design of the system, not so much the ability of the individual controllers (although they are good!). As has been stated on other threads on the forum, we as pilots are just as quilty of non compliance of "instructions" (note the difference as to ""requests") that throws the "good" controllers for a loop. I also believe there are individuals on the ground here that are struggling with the concept and implementation of the "efficient" side of ATC. Perhaps just through sheer inexperience. The region is not famous for providing a sound "package" anylonger for anyone, so the idea of "skimming the cream off the top" is laughable on both fronts.(they do manage a few golden ones on occaision though. All come here for different reasons).
In many of the airports I have flown to all over the world I find generally the most limiting item in the equation is the regulations the controllers have to follow, with perhaps a smidgon of the controllers lack of appreciation for what the latest generation of aircraft are capable of and the pilot's inability to manage it properly.
Having done a tour of several ATC centers in a couple major traffic zones (and here in DXB too
) I've seen there are always two sides of the story with neither party in hand of all the details of the other.As you can gather I'm well in support of mutual "Fam" experiences from both sides. It doesn't take much to enlighten either party. Can't speak from ATCO's here but assuming your being squeezed as much as we are (hey it's 2006 in the ME, what's new of late?) you've probably got way better things to do with your very little precious time off than to take a trip again to the airport.
Perhaps the company could give us 2-3 hours "credit" for the experience...
...don't get me going on that "cost neutral" issue. I'd be typing here all night.
...resume's to other carriers that is...
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sandy
you might like to calm down a bit . ever heard of sarcasm to make a point? the point being if we ALL work together then it will run alot smother. less carry by prima donnas in a busy environment would be a start. just because your number3 in a sequence doesn't mean we hate you
yes an extra nm or 3 is an extra delay for the next guy, so when i tell the a/c to turn then he should turn not spend the next 20nm after responding scratching his arse wondering if that call was for him or one of the other 15 a/c in the sequence.
when he is told to slow down he should comply not take 3 reminders to slow down ie slow to 250IAS 20nm later confirm slowing to 250IAS? we are 300IAS confirm you want us slow 250IAS. 20nm later whats your speed? 300ias confirm you want us to slow now? that way we get the 10/20nm etc and you get to land earlier.
you sound like a person of some experience with all things atc so i'll extend to you the same invite i did to Schnowzer. pm me, organise a time and come to the center and bring your licence so you can show us how its done
you might like to calm down a bit . ever heard of sarcasm to make a point? the point being if we ALL work together then it will run alot smother. less carry by prima donnas in a busy environment would be a start. just because your number3 in a sequence doesn't mean we hate you
yes an extra nm or 3 is an extra delay for the next guy, so when i tell the a/c to turn then he should turn not spend the next 20nm after responding scratching his arse wondering if that call was for him or one of the other 15 a/c in the sequence.
when he is told to slow down he should comply not take 3 reminders to slow down ie slow to 250IAS 20nm later confirm slowing to 250IAS? we are 300IAS confirm you want us slow 250IAS. 20nm later whats your speed? 300ias confirm you want us to slow now? that way we get the 10/20nm etc and you get to land earlier.
you sound like a person of some experience with all things atc so i'll extend to you the same invite i did to Schnowzer. pm me, organise a time and come to the center and bring your licence so you can show us how its done
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Sandstorm Inferno
"KJFK, KORD, EGLL, EDDF, EHAM" Yeah right!! These are airfields that probably have a structured modern Airspace and Air Traffic Management system! How many AN12 freighters, AN124's, TU134's and the like are they trying to sequence in the middle of a an RPT arrival rush where no flow control from adjacent sectors or slot times allows everybody to turn up at once. Add to that adjacent units that for political and other reasons will not enter into any constructive dialogue for ammending and improving the current work practices and vice verca 
Additionally when you have operators that think they are so important that we should call them three times or more for a level or heading clearance in the middle of a busy sequence then I think an extra mile or 2 isn't bad!
As I didn't go to the school of how to be "Gods gift to the world of aviation" as it appears you must have...I will just keep hoping that the acepting unit will take the odd extra mile!
Another quote from your post:
"So back on the horse Ali. Try to tighten up the spacing and you'll get rid of your hold a lot quicker"
All I can say to you is let go of it "buddy" otherwise you will go blind!
Additionally when you have operators that think they are so important that we should call them three times or more for a level or heading clearance in the middle of a busy sequence then I think an extra mile or 2 isn't bad!
As I didn't go to the school of how to be "Gods gift to the world of aviation" as it appears you must have...I will just keep hoping that the acepting unit will take the odd extra mile!
Another quote from your post:
"So back on the horse Ali. Try to tighten up the spacing and you'll get rid of your hold a lot quicker"
All I can say to you is let go of it "buddy" otherwise you will go blind!
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Schnowzer & Sandy i'm still waiting for you to pm so we can organise your visits!
You both appear to have years of experience in the ATC field at busy centers and maybe thats the sort of experience we need to have showing us how its done.
looking forward to hearing from you
You both appear to have years of experience in the ATC field at busy centers and maybe thats the sort of experience we need to have showing us how its done.
looking forward to hearing from you
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Ali,
Read who mentioned 'controlling abilities first before you accuse me of making things up! I talked about 'centre' not you, that is why I suggested there might be some paranoia.
Cut to the chase, stop getting into a slanging match and rather than bleating on about me wasting one of my 7 days off this month by coming to Centre for a 'patronising' lesson. I've done the NATS and Eurocontrol versions.
Explain to me why the airspace is designed as it is? Why do Dubai not have control of their holds higher up and how can we increase the flowrate into the airport for when the second runway opens with the capacity increasing stagger?
Schnowzer
Read who mentioned 'controlling abilities first before you accuse me of making things up! I talked about 'centre' not you, that is why I suggested there might be some paranoia.
Cut to the chase, stop getting into a slanging match and rather than bleating on about me wasting one of my 7 days off this month by coming to Centre for a 'patronising' lesson. I've done the NATS and Eurocontrol versions.
Explain to me why the airspace is designed as it is? Why do Dubai not have control of their holds higher up and how can we increase the flowrate into the airport for when the second runway opens with the capacity increasing stagger?
Schnowzer
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firstly i work in the center not in dubai app so i can only assume that the comment "The fact that centre control the holds and have zippo ability to sequence aircraft leads to all sorts of problems in Dubai" would be aimed at controllers in the center.
secondaly i am 100% genuine in my offer for you to come on in. i dont do patronising, occasional sarcasm but no patronising. if someone is going to make the effort to come into the center or call then they deserve to be treated as an equal. you have been speaking as a person who knows how it should be done so put your money where your mouth is and come in and show me.
as to why dubai dont control the holds? who would know. they have been told by their managers that they are to hold in only very exceptional circumstances and not for weather. they have told us not to ask for speeds/tracking just give them the required spacing and leave the rest to them. some crews are great and give tracking to us and the sequence works a treat. other crews don't and we watch a/c either track shorteded or given an extra 20+nm to try and make it work. i have lost count of the ammount of times i have had 8+ a/c line astern 10nm trail only to be told by dubai we need 15/20nm now. when asked why the responses have ranged from "we need to get 2 depatures away" to "it might get busy later so just in case"
again come into the center when its busy and have a look.
is it a perfect system? far from it. but you can only do what the next sector and the rules allows you to do. and you can only make the sequence work if pilots follow instructions. until the managers in dubai and the center get together and sort out a better system nothing will happen.
if you read my very first post i came up with a really easy solution. slot times. everyone has been saying how wonderful their shiney new planes are so you get a slot time and you fly the a/c to make it. to early? then hold till a slot becomes avaiable. to late same deal
secondaly i am 100% genuine in my offer for you to come on in. i dont do patronising, occasional sarcasm but no patronising. if someone is going to make the effort to come into the center or call then they deserve to be treated as an equal. you have been speaking as a person who knows how it should be done so put your money where your mouth is and come in and show me.
as to why dubai dont control the holds? who would know. they have been told by their managers that they are to hold in only very exceptional circumstances and not for weather. they have told us not to ask for speeds/tracking just give them the required spacing and leave the rest to them. some crews are great and give tracking to us and the sequence works a treat. other crews don't and we watch a/c either track shorteded or given an extra 20+nm to try and make it work. i have lost count of the ammount of times i have had 8+ a/c line astern 10nm trail only to be told by dubai we need 15/20nm now. when asked why the responses have ranged from "we need to get 2 depatures away" to "it might get busy later so just in case"
again come into the center when its busy and have a look.is it a perfect system? far from it. but you can only do what the next sector and the rules allows you to do. and you can only make the sequence work if pilots follow instructions. until the managers in dubai and the center get together and sort out a better system nothing will happen.
if you read my very first post i came up with a really easy solution. slot times. everyone has been saying how wonderful their shiney new planes are so you get a slot time and you fly the a/c to make it. to early? then hold till a slot becomes avaiable. to late same deal
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Nowhere in my initial post did I mention any kind of favourtism for EK that both ANSA and Ali alluded to. What I did suggest was to reduce the number of smaller operators at peak times by introducing slots; this leaves the Majors all operating aircraft with similar performance (one would assume making ATC's job somewhat easier) during these periods (only really 2300-0100 and 0430-0630 for arrivals). Looks like some common ground after all.
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mack sorry if i was misunderstood. i wasn't alluding that we have to favour anyone. slot times h24 would be great otherwise yes slot times in peak periods would work.
as far as the smaller operators/freighters go they, like the mojors, have reasons they need to arrive in dubai when they do. a slot time for everyone would alieviate alot of the probs. then the mojors wouldn't have to wait for the connecting pax/freight off the minors and all would (hopefully) be happy.
here is another one that has been suggested both here and in the center. seperate arrivials for either dubai/shj or jets/props. as always there would be problems with this as well.
one of the big probs we have now and will always have untill there is some form of enroute flow/slot time is this. 5+ a/c turn up at amoli within 10nm all asking for decent. we need to have 5nm between a/c for decent so that means find 15nm then we have to hand off to dubai 10/20nm. do the math. slot times would solve this. 2/3/4min depending on rwy etc at amoil means unrestricted decent with agreed speed and height requirements along the star.
as everyone else has said(including me) it works elsewhere so why not here?
well 2 reasons i can think of are
1)owner of dubai airport has decreed that its open skies with no restrictions on arrival/depature times and he has final say in the way things are run at his airport.
2)there are alot of operators here who are average at best. at the risk of opeing up a can of worms, as was posted on another thread, in heathrow they allow an extra nm when EK are taking off/landing due to their "flying tecniques". yes there are some great pilots who fly for emirates and other airlinesbut consider this. EK are supposed to be the best in the region and there are something like 100+ other operators who fly here so if heathrow allow 1nm for EK how many min do we allow in a slot time for the various operators here?
oh well slot times would be nice though... we live in hope
as far as the smaller operators/freighters go they, like the mojors, have reasons they need to arrive in dubai when they do. a slot time for everyone would alieviate alot of the probs. then the mojors wouldn't have to wait for the connecting pax/freight off the minors and all would (hopefully) be happy.
here is another one that has been suggested both here and in the center. seperate arrivials for either dubai/shj or jets/props. as always there would be problems with this as well.
one of the big probs we have now and will always have untill there is some form of enroute flow/slot time is this. 5+ a/c turn up at amoli within 10nm all asking for decent. we need to have 5nm between a/c for decent so that means find 15nm then we have to hand off to dubai 10/20nm. do the math. slot times would solve this. 2/3/4min depending on rwy etc at amoil means unrestricted decent with agreed speed and height requirements along the star.
as everyone else has said(including me) it works elsewhere so why not here?
well 2 reasons i can think of are
1)owner of dubai airport has decreed that its open skies with no restrictions on arrival/depature times and he has final say in the way things are run at his airport.
2)there are alot of operators here who are average at best. at the risk of opeing up a can of worms, as was posted on another thread, in heathrow they allow an extra nm when EK are taking off/landing due to their "flying tecniques". yes there are some great pilots who fly for emirates and other airlinesbut consider this. EK are supposed to be the best in the region and there are something like 100+ other operators who fly here so if heathrow allow 1nm for EK how many min do we allow in a slot time for the various operators here?
oh well slot times would be nice though... we live in hope
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Reading this thread and talking to both controllers and pilots, the one thing we are all in agreement is that the ATC procedures in the UAE need to be changed. Sad thing is the one person who isn't listening is the regulator!!!! Until he opens his ears, or is moved on then nothing will change.
Here are my two favourite "accidents waiting to happen scenerio's in the current system we now operate. Dubai on 12, outbound via Riket slow climber, handed to UAE east out of 8500 for example, straight into the teeth of a Fujeirah outbound climbing slowly heading northbound. The other, inbound to RAK routing straight to the RAV, dropping to 10A, inbound to Dubai dropping also to 10A via Maxmo!!!
Who can design a system like this????
The other really sad thing, will the different nationalities controlling the traffic, we could pick and choose the best ideas and create an excellent system. ATC isn't rocket science.
Anyway, hope it changes, me going back home soon need to get back to the ATC real world not this current Disney land!!!
Here are my two favourite "accidents waiting to happen scenerio's in the current system we now operate. Dubai on 12, outbound via Riket slow climber, handed to UAE east out of 8500 for example, straight into the teeth of a Fujeirah outbound climbing slowly heading northbound. The other, inbound to RAK routing straight to the RAV, dropping to 10A, inbound to Dubai dropping also to 10A via Maxmo!!!
Who can design a system like this????
The other really sad thing, will the different nationalities controlling the traffic, we could pick and choose the best ideas and create an excellent system. ATC isn't rocket science.
Anyway, hope it changes, me going back home soon need to get back to the ATC real world not this current Disney land!!!
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Well done folks... another thread that has given some good ideas ruined by the old "bloody ATC/Pilots if they could only do their job." drivvel.
I really wonder why I bother reading this stuff anymore........
I really wonder why I bother reading this stuff anymore........
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Ali,
You mention:
That is because centre fire a stream of aircraft into Dubai airspace from a long range. The lead time required to sort the spacing out does not allow for tactical adjustments at a late stage. The solution has been requested by Dubai on many occasions only to be shot down in flames by RJ. They last asked when the airshow was on.
All they wanted was a hold to the North and a hold to the South under their control. Centre could supply the stream as requested but if Dubai runway requirements or unforseen events caused a change in the spacing at a late stage they could use the hold to finesse things.
Irrespective of how good or bad the controllers or the pilots are, proper airspace design can only reduce the workload of all the players and lead to more efficient airspace and runway utilisation.
You mention:
i have lost count of the amount of times i have had 8+ a/c line astern 10nm trail only to be told by dubai we need 15/20nm now.
All they wanted was a hold to the North and a hold to the South under their control. Centre could supply the stream as requested but if Dubai runway requirements or unforseen events caused a change in the spacing at a late stage they could use the hold to finesse things.
Irrespective of how good or bad the controllers or the pilots are, proper airspace design can only reduce the workload of all the players and lead to more efficient airspace and runway utilisation.
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Thats funny Schnowzer, cos some crews in Dubai manage to work with us and make the sequence work. It takes the Dubai Coordinator to actually look out on a bigger scale screen and actually work out the order of the sequence. Then he calls either West or East and gives direct to final approach fix if thats appropriate or asks us to give increased spacing specifically between specific aircraft. Hey presto, the sequence threads together from east and west. What annoys Centre controllers and pilots alike is we vector the backside off the aircraft on West to achieve our required 20 NM in trail spacing and then on first contact the recently shafted aircraft that has been pulled back to 250 kts IAS gets given direct Ukrum high speed to the field?????? Yes the procedures need to be improved, and yes slot times would be great, but also the present system could be worked better than it is. I am not trying to sledge all Dubai controllers, because some of the guys and gals, do as I explained first, and the traffic gets on the ground in a much smoother way, than when the latter kind of Dubai coordinator is on and he tells you to hold an aircraft at DESDI when the aircraft in 2NM to run to DESDI.
To Mack Truck, minor or major is irrelevant when it comes to who should come when into Dubai. Slot times in another place would be great, I just can't even begin to comprehend trying to coordinate a slot time requirement for an aircraft arrving through ORSAR from Tehran. We have enough trouble getting the very simple standard stuff out of them.
To Mack Truck, minor or major is irrelevant when it comes to who should come when into Dubai. Slot times in another place would be great, I just can't even begin to comprehend trying to coordinate a slot time requirement for an aircraft arrving through ORSAR from Tehran. We have enough trouble getting the very simple standard stuff out of them.
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ANSA,
Still no one from centre has answered why Dubai cannot control its own holds. If there was an appropriate stack for the active runway with a timing pattern, from the hold to the runway, it would solve just about all of the problems you describe.
Centre could manage the aircraft through their airspace, deconflicted by altitude to the hold. Then Dubai could pick off the aircraft as required and finally finesse the aircraft after they have left the hold to guarantee the spacing on final to fit in the departures.
Dubai wouldn't need a 'robo-coordinator' and centre's workload would be massively reduced. If the procedures in force are not optimum; change them. They should be simple enough that even the lowest common denominator can operate them. Don't blame the coordinator until the procedures make sense. I know there is a bit of history between various individuals on both sides of the divide but surely everyone can rise above it. If we can sort the airspace out it will benefit Centre Controllers, Terminal Controllers and Pilots alike!
Still no one from centre has answered why Dubai cannot control its own holds. If there was an appropriate stack for the active runway with a timing pattern, from the hold to the runway, it would solve just about all of the problems you describe.
Centre could manage the aircraft through their airspace, deconflicted by altitude to the hold. Then Dubai could pick off the aircraft as required and finally finesse the aircraft after they have left the hold to guarantee the spacing on final to fit in the departures.
Dubai wouldn't need a 'robo-coordinator' and centre's workload would be massively reduced. If the procedures in force are not optimum; change them. They should be simple enough that even the lowest common denominator can operate them. Don't blame the coordinator until the procedures make sense. I know there is a bit of history between various individuals on both sides of the divide but surely everyone can rise above it. If we can sort the airspace out it will benefit Centre Controllers, Terminal Controllers and Pilots alike!
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At the end of the day though guys, who really gives a sh*t. I just put on more gas and sit in the hold or take the vectors until i can fit in. It's their train set, they make the rules, put on more gas and reduce everyones stress levels.
I long ago gave up any concern about efficient operation for this outfit. You could lose a lot of sleep worrying about it, to no avail, or you can pull out the kite surfer and let the bean counters worry about how much it costs to carry 2 tonnes extra.
I'd much rather be having a beer at the IV with the ATC crowd than arguing on this forum about something that none of us can control.
I long ago gave up any concern about efficient operation for this outfit. You could lose a lot of sleep worrying about it, to no avail, or you can pull out the kite surfer and let the bean counters worry about how much it costs to carry 2 tonnes extra.
I'd much rather be having a beer at the IV with the ATC crowd than arguing on this forum about something that none of us can control.
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vorsicht,
you are so right, I couldn't care less about EK and ATC, they belong to the same guy, it's his money not mine, if I stress out and save some gas he'll give the extra profit to a football team or else.
let's see where EK is in 10 years from now.
you are so right, I couldn't care less about EK and ATC, they belong to the same guy, it's his money not mine, if I stress out and save some gas he'll give the extra profit to a football team or else.
let's see where EK is in 10 years from now.
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Schnowzer I can't give you a reason why Dubai shouldn't control the bottom of the holding pattern because there is none. Dubai should at least have the bottom level of the stack. You take him in, we drop the next guy and give him to you, you bring him in we drop the next guy and give him to you. That still doesn't solve the problems of spacing when we aren't holding (which is getting less often but still the majority of the time). I honestly don't think slot times will work, because that relies on our neighbours being a part of the whole plan, and that won't happen. We can't get aircraft as late as we do and then try and implement a time to meet requirement on them. So the only quick improvement I can see right now would be more specific flowing from the Dubai coordinator. That is rather than a blanket 20 NM in trail spacing, by the Dubai Coordinator being more proactive and working out the order of the sequence 100 NM out from Dubai and then adjusting the spacing requirements to East and West as is required there would be a lot less wasted slots into Dubai and similarly a lot less cluster farks in the DB TMA when the aircraft have been vectored to achieve required spacing only to be vectored all over again once with Dubai. My understanding is that during training in DB TMA the coordinator position is a bit of an afterthought, and very little if any training time is spent there, whereas I think it is one of the most important positions in the operation. Some people who have worked as a Flow controller back in there home countries are a joy to work with and they make the sequence work from both sides, whereas in some cases you go to Dubai Corrdinator with a request for an aircraft 60 NM out of Dubai, and the reply is "Who?" as they haven't even looked at the aircraft yet. Again this is not trying to slag off Dubai Controllers cos on the whole they do a good job, and there are sequences handed off by guys in the Centre that make me wince with embarrasment, so there are problems on both sides, but I think there needs to be improvement made. Fire away!
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Nimmer
[QUOTE]Here are my two favourite "accidents waiting to happen scenerio's in the current system we now operate. Dubai on 12, outbound via Riket slow climber, handed to UAE east out of 8500 for example, straight into the teeth of a Fujeirah outbound climbing slowly heading northbound. The other, inbound to RAK routing straight to the RAV, dropping to 10A, inbound to Dubai dropping also to 10A via Maxmo!!!
Who can design a system like this????[QUOTE]
Great example, lets see now. The slow climber is not complying with the climb gradient, ACC has released traffic from FJ (yes, they are subject to release) and 2 in from DARAX, one for RAV and 1 MAXMO. So let's recap, no produre followed thus dangerous, how am I doing? If the ACC guy releases traffic from FJ when he has a dicey situation only has himself to blame. My next question is: at what point does the years of training as an ATC actually kick in? All over the world procedures are flawed and ATC's are trained to deal withit, it's our job! Traffic will always conflict at some or other point. To design airspace with no conflicts takes our function away. You have a licence, start using it.
Getting back to the thread, the solution is for DB to introduce flow and stop this open skies policy where it's a free for all.
Cat out
Who can design a system like this????[QUOTE]
Great example, lets see now. The slow climber is not complying with the climb gradient, ACC has released traffic from FJ (yes, they are subject to release) and 2 in from DARAX, one for RAV and 1 MAXMO. So let's recap, no produre followed thus dangerous, how am I doing? If the ACC guy releases traffic from FJ when he has a dicey situation only has himself to blame. My next question is: at what point does the years of training as an ATC actually kick in? All over the world procedures are flawed and ATC's are trained to deal withit, it's our job! Traffic will always conflict at some or other point. To design airspace with no conflicts takes our function away. You have a licence, start using it.
Getting back to the thread, the solution is for DB to introduce flow and stop this open skies policy where it's a free for all.
Cat out
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Try more than 15 aircraft. Some guys still think Dubai is some dusty backwater with no traffic. As I illustrated on the previous thread, if compared to LGW, ie. single runway versus single runway, Dubai is less than 50 movements a day less on average than the average movements per day for LGW, that is about 630 versus 680. Dubai traffic is growing at between 10-15% annually while Gatwick trafic is growing at about 3-4% a year. So by the middle of next year Dubai will overtake Gatwick for traffic numbers.
You can try and get some yank controllers if you like but the one that came here lasted a matter of minutes before he stuffed up and was sent home. Nice guy but just goes to show you can't generalise about different nationalities. I see great Aussie pilots every day and really bad aussie pilots, the same goes for Poms, Yarpies and yanks. I know you are a wind up merchant readytocopy so congrats you got me to bite.
To Cat, I think he is referring to the inbound RAK being one from the WEST, ie inbound through DESDI, and so I have to agree that it is an accident waiting to happen. The Dubai guys are trying to thread the RAK arrival through the PAPAR departures, and then not let him run up the back of the LALDO/TONVO departures, so he takes him nth of SHJ only to try and hit the MAXMO inbound. And this twaddle about not meeting climb gradients?????? Yeh like that will float in the investigation later when the Cathay 742 in August carrying a belly load of rubber dog poo, climbs out through RIKET, 2 minutes after FUJ has called for a release of the FUJ traffic. The FUJ traffic pops up nose to nose with the 742 dragging his belly on the mountains and your only choice is to turn the FUJ departure to the right, that is right into the mountains. While we are on bad procedures try holding down to 10 thousand at Bubin right hand pattern with a run of departures through RIKET all assigned 13,000. Now you may say that the BUBIN pattern is separated from RIKET departures but when some of the operators decide to enter the hold at 270 or 280 kts they tend to go pretty wide on the turn. Now even those amazing controllers from ATLANTA, Boston and wherever else would jump at that one.
I agree procedures need to be fixed, and I haven't even started on the DARAX inbound versus outbound scenario. But we work with it best as we can, and so a bit of respect and appreciation goes a long way from the pilots. Not gonna get that here though are we.
You can try and get some yank controllers if you like but the one that came here lasted a matter of minutes before he stuffed up and was sent home. Nice guy but just goes to show you can't generalise about different nationalities. I see great Aussie pilots every day and really bad aussie pilots, the same goes for Poms, Yarpies and yanks. I know you are a wind up merchant readytocopy so congrats you got me to bite.
To Cat, I think he is referring to the inbound RAK being one from the WEST, ie inbound through DESDI, and so I have to agree that it is an accident waiting to happen. The Dubai guys are trying to thread the RAK arrival through the PAPAR departures, and then not let him run up the back of the LALDO/TONVO departures, so he takes him nth of SHJ only to try and hit the MAXMO inbound. And this twaddle about not meeting climb gradients?????? Yeh like that will float in the investigation later when the Cathay 742 in August carrying a belly load of rubber dog poo, climbs out through RIKET, 2 minutes after FUJ has called for a release of the FUJ traffic. The FUJ traffic pops up nose to nose with the 742 dragging his belly on the mountains and your only choice is to turn the FUJ departure to the right, that is right into the mountains. While we are on bad procedures try holding down to 10 thousand at Bubin right hand pattern with a run of departures through RIKET all assigned 13,000. Now you may say that the BUBIN pattern is separated from RIKET departures but when some of the operators decide to enter the hold at 270 or 280 kts they tend to go pretty wide on the turn. Now even those amazing controllers from ATLANTA, Boston and wherever else would jump at that one.
I agree procedures need to be fixed, and I haven't even started on the DARAX inbound versus outbound scenario. But we work with it best as we can, and so a bit of respect and appreciation goes a long way from the pilots. Not gonna get that here though are we.