Operations into Dubai - can they be improved?
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Operations into Dubai - can they be improved?
Following on from the Dubai R/T thread, here's a new thread where both pilots and ATCOs can offer constructive suggestions on what could be done - on both sides - to improve on the current situation.
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The answer to this is applicable to Dubai in general, as well as to this thread:- Do it once and do it properly. Problem is it will never happen. The population is growing at a faster rate than the infrastructure can handle. This applies to roads in Dubai and traffic through Dubai Airport. There will be no control over the rate of growth as growth equals cash flow. There are only a handful of really rich families here and between them they control almost everything (certainly everything that matters) so a few delays are of no consequence to them. Dubai is a city of monopolies from Telecoms (shortly to become a duopoly but both owned by the Government) to car dealers (there is only one dealer per brand of car in Dubai, a city of 2.5 million; how many Holden dealers are there in Melbourne?) to airport handling agents; DNATA, 100% owned by Emirates. Couple DNATA's airport monopoly for handling and Dubai's (almost) open skies policy and constant airport works (as they can't get it right) and we have the situation we are now faced with.
What needs to happen is to modulate the traffic flow. Seemingly every few months there are additional minor operators into Dubai, e.g. Air Blue, Shaheen, Air Asia (with 'who knows what' kind of certification and standards) on top of extra Majors like Virgin and Aer Lingus recently.
We need to get the minors out the way of the rest of us at what are well known peak times. This could be achieved by assigning (selling) slots or even introducing accepted noise abatement procedures limiting access for un-hush kitted or Russian airplanes.
Dont hold your breath though.
What needs to happen is to modulate the traffic flow. Seemingly every few months there are additional minor operators into Dubai, e.g. Air Blue, Shaheen, Air Asia (with 'who knows what' kind of certification and standards) on top of extra Majors like Virgin and Aer Lingus recently.
We need to get the minors out the way of the rest of us at what are well known peak times. This could be achieved by assigning (selling) slots or even introducing accepted noise abatement procedures limiting access for un-hush kitted or Russian airplanes.
Dont hold your breath though.
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We need to get the minors out the way of the rest of us at what are well known peak times.
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And for the record I would prefer to work a T154 any day over an A330. Why??? Cos the Tupolev isn't dragging its belly at 10,000ft 65 NM out from the airport screaming for further descent while the sequence turns to hell in a handbasket behind cos everyone else is at a decent height. So don't bag the Russian aircraft. Also for the most part the Russian operators while not always having the strongest of English, try their best to do what they are told, and never get lippy on the frequency when they are told that sorry not everyone can be number 1.
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here's a bright idea
slot times for everyone.
its not just the "small" operators that get in the way. just ask the 2330 from the west and 0530 from the east gaggles. you get 35+ EK as well as all the other major operators arriving in a very short space of time with pilots being genuinely surprised/astounded that they have to slow down/hold etc.
also slot depature times so that all those outbounds can get the levels they want instead of the ones that are left over.
its not just the "small" operators that get in the way. just ask the 2330 from the west and 0530 from the east gaggles. you get 35+ EK as well as all the other major operators arriving in a very short space of time with pilots being genuinely surprised/astounded that they have to slow down/hold etc.
also slot depature times so that all those outbounds can get the levels they want instead of the ones that are left over.
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ANSA,
Should have expected that from an Aussie; the home of protectionism and favourtism and most anal ATC in the world. Guess where all the ATC complaints come from for EK? Australia! And it aint as if the standard of RT/compliance etc from EK aircraft is any different from anywhere else in the world its just that you guys are a nation of complaining gits; get over it.
Should have expected that from an Aussie; the home of protectionism and favourtism and most anal ATC in the world. Guess where all the ATC complaints come from for EK? Australia! And it aint as if the standard of RT/compliance etc from EK aircraft is any different from anywhere else in the world its just that you guys are a nation of complaining gits; get over it.
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having once been on the other end of the mike, i can consent with both sides. what i see as a big
contributing factor to our problem, is performance differences both in airborne equipment aswell as
in proficiency of it's riders.
the appearence of the flying nintendos had its benefits but also its setbacks. almost all nintendo
trained pilots do (and some can) only fly in managed or open modes. this leads to very inconsistent
flight paths once atc guidance sets in. i have seen anything from 180 to 290kts with 300 to 4000fpm
in tma's and some don't care to fly constant horizontal or vertical speeds during somewhat stricter
atc vectoring and speed control. this screws up sequencing and even leads to ra's. it's not necessary,
even a A330 can do nice continuous descent approaches on a 3deg GP, it just needs a little skill
and training. maybe there's the catch...........
furthermore, in slight disagreement with ansa, i think some aircraft should not operate into airspace
like dxb/sha, at least not at peak hours. it's about performance: there should be a minimum performance
in climb/descent rate and speed, so as not to hold up traffic. but this would be gcaa's playing ground,
there goes the catch again............
contributing factor to our problem, is performance differences both in airborne equipment aswell as
in proficiency of it's riders.
the appearence of the flying nintendos had its benefits but also its setbacks. almost all nintendo
trained pilots do (and some can) only fly in managed or open modes. this leads to very inconsistent
flight paths once atc guidance sets in. i have seen anything from 180 to 290kts with 300 to 4000fpm
in tma's and some don't care to fly constant horizontal or vertical speeds during somewhat stricter
atc vectoring and speed control. this screws up sequencing and even leads to ra's. it's not necessary,
even a A330 can do nice continuous descent approaches on a 3deg GP, it just needs a little skill
and training. maybe there's the catch...........
furthermore, in slight disagreement with ansa, i think some aircraft should not operate into airspace
like dxb/sha, at least not at peak hours. it's about performance: there should be a minimum performance
in climb/descent rate and speed, so as not to hold up traffic. but this would be gcaa's playing ground,
there goes the catch again............
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Guess where all the ATC complaints come from for EK? Australia!
all
most anal ATC in the world
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Don't tell me your government or ATC don't favour QF! Thats a preposterous allegation (and also a complete crock). Best practice? You obviously didnt hear the story about the retiring United pilot who on his last departure from Australia complimented ATC on being the second best in the world. When asked who was the best, the answer was the rest of the world.
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As an aussie I gotta say i totally agree with Mack. Australia do have the most anal ATC in the world as well as the wider aviation community thinking that they are the self appointed keeper of worldwide ATC standards. Given that most of the guys operating down there haven't been outside their own backyard, they tend to fairly opinionated as to how the rest of the world should conduct themselves. I know some knobber is going to throw back the old ICAO phraseology bull, but we all know that as an international operator you just develop a generic R/T that's not perfect, but works pretty well everywhere.
I never seem to here from the Russian ATC complaining about the piss poor standard of R/T, maybe that's because english isn't their first language either. Australians on the other hand generally expect everyone else from non english speaking background to be perfectly fluent in the queens english before they sully the golden shores of good old Oz.
At the end of the day, it aint going to get any better, probably worse. It's like the driving in Dubai, get used to it or get off the road.
I never seem to here from the Russian ATC complaining about the piss poor standard of R/T, maybe that's because english isn't their first language either. Australians on the other hand generally expect everyone else from non english speaking background to be perfectly fluent in the queens english before they sully the golden shores of good old Oz.
At the end of the day, it aint going to get any better, probably worse. It's like the driving in Dubai, get used to it or get off the road.
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I don't want to be the knobber throwing back the ICAO phraseology bull.
Whilst the Aussies are pretty anal about some phraseology, it never ceases to amaze me how the operate ULR flights like they are off on a hop around the circuit. "Report Wagga, Wagga!", "Call Headland" etc etc etc. If I lived in Wagga (thank god I don't) or Headland, I might know what the reporting point they are refering to is called.
Unbelievably, I don't sit up at nights memorising beacons, waypoints and reporting points whilst relating them to their geographical positions.......but I know an aussie that does.
(Is the float moving?)
Back to the thread, we all need to help each other out, the biggest improvement to Dubai ATC would be to disband centre. The fact that centre control the holds and have zippo ability to sequence aircraft leads to all sorts of problems in Dubai. I believe the key is better control by centre and coordination with Dubai.
How often have you been told by centre, "At Orsar fly 240, slow to green dot and enter a state of suspended animation"? You then get handed off to Dubai, "Direct Ukrim, no speed control, keep the speed up as long as you can!"
Whilst the Aussies are pretty anal about some phraseology, it never ceases to amaze me how the operate ULR flights like they are off on a hop around the circuit. "Report Wagga, Wagga!", "Call Headland" etc etc etc. If I lived in Wagga (thank god I don't) or Headland, I might know what the reporting point they are refering to is called.
Unbelievably, I don't sit up at nights memorising beacons, waypoints and reporting points whilst relating them to their geographical positions.......but I know an aussie that does.
(Is the float moving?)Back to the thread, we all need to help each other out, the biggest improvement to Dubai ATC would be to disband centre. The fact that centre control the holds and have zippo ability to sequence aircraft leads to all sorts of problems in Dubai. I believe the key is better control by centre and coordination with Dubai.
How often have you been told by centre, "At Orsar fly 240, slow to green dot and enter a state of suspended animation"? You then get handed off to Dubai, "Direct Ukrim, no speed control, keep the speed up as long as you can!"
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mack never said that gov there didn't favour QF. but as for atc we favour the a/c who is in front. i dont spin the an12 just to make the almighty EK 
number 1 when he should be number 2. in aus we operate as the rest of the world. there are rules to follow and we follow them. if we see a pilot not following the rules we report them. as far as the departing united pilot there are stories like that for every center all over the world so don't cart out that old chestnut.
Vorsicht
as i have said in lots of other threads its not the pilots whose first language isn't english that is the problem. as a rule they realise that they have to work at the english phrases and as a result are actually pretty good. its the us/uk/can/sa/aus or those who "think" their english is perfect that are the ones who cause the most grief regarding r/t.
number 1 when he should be number 2. in aus we operate as the rest of the world. there are rules to follow and we follow them. if we see a pilot not following the rules we report them. as far as the departing united pilot there are stories like that for every center all over the world so don't cart out that old chestnut.Vorsicht
Australians on the other hand generally expect everyone else from non english speaking background to be perfectly fluent in the queens english before they sully the golden shores of good old Oz.
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Schnowzer
thanks for you vote of confidence in my lack of ability to sequence.
we are required to give dubai 10/15/20/30 nm or more depending on who is on app, what rwy in use and how busy they are. thats what we hand off to them. dubai app have instructed us in the center to give the spacing and just leave it at that. we are not allowed to ask for tracking etc as this increases their workload. they dont offer it on many occasions for reason unknown.
anytime you would like to pop into the center and show us how its done that would be great. i look forward to seeing you, just pm me and we can organise a time.
ps bring your atc licence with you and we might even be able to swing it so you can have a chat on the airwaves.
The fact that centre control the holds and have zippo ability to sequence aircraft leads to all sorts of problems in Dubai.
we are required to give dubai 10/15/20/30 nm or more depending on who is on app, what rwy in use and how busy they are. thats what we hand off to them. dubai app have instructed us in the center to give the spacing and just leave it at that. we are not allowed to ask for tracking etc as this increases their workload. they dont offer it on many occasions for reason unknown.
anytime you would like to pop into the center and show us how its done that would be great. i look forward to seeing you, just pm me and we can organise a time.
ps bring your atc licence with you and we might even be able to swing it so you can have a chat on the airwaves.
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Looks like to me instead of a civilised thread to open lines of dialoge between "ATC" and the "pilot group" this has digressed very quickly to a mud slinging match of soon to be epic proportions. Sorry got to run, I'll finish this later...my kids are fighting...
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Ali,
A bite, I knew I'd get one. Some of the geometry and lack of awareness of speed differential displayed by controllers in this part of the world is truly shocking. I didn't say anything about your controlling abilities (you are not paranoid are you?) however you might want to point out to some of your buddies that aircraft have inertia. Typically I end up spaced not 5, 10 or 15nm apart but 7.6,13.3 or 23.9nm. It is not that difficult if you have a basic understanding of lead, lag, pursuit, closure and inertia. I used to do it for a living!
The reason Dubai need the spacings you have described is due to poor airspace design and maybe megalomania. If Dubai controlled the holds they could then arrange what ever spacing they required. Don't believe me go and check out LHR (Lambourne), LGW (Mayfield), MUC (Sauerkraut)..ok I made that one up. You tell me why Abu Dhabi feel the urge to control the busiest airfield in their region and then give them little or no flexibility to manage their arrivals?
Outa, Good spot!
A bite, I knew I'd get one. Some of the geometry and lack of awareness of speed differential displayed by controllers in this part of the world is truly shocking. I didn't say anything about your controlling abilities (you are not paranoid are you?) however you might want to point out to some of your buddies that aircraft have inertia. Typically I end up spaced not 5, 10 or 15nm apart but 7.6,13.3 or 23.9nm. It is not that difficult if you have a basic understanding of lead, lag, pursuit, closure and inertia. I used to do it for a living!
The reason Dubai need the spacings you have described is due to poor airspace design and maybe megalomania. If Dubai controlled the holds they could then arrange what ever spacing they required. Don't believe me go and check out LHR (Lambourne), LGW (Mayfield), MUC (Sauerkraut)..ok I made that one up. You tell me why Abu Dhabi feel the urge to control the busiest airfield in their region and then give them little or no flexibility to manage their arrivals?
Outa, Good spot!
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Schnowzer paranoid? no. you might want to read my post carefully as i never mentioned my controlling ability either. you made that bit up in your reply.
as far as handing off 7.6,13.3 or 23.9nm. im sure that in all these fantastic places around the world the atc are awsome to watch and the pilots are godlike in their ability to do everything perfectally
but we atc in the middle east are only human and some of the operators are also less then perfect. so if i give dubai 11nm instead of 10 or 23,9 instead of 20 i hope you will forgive me.
but i will offer again as i always would like to improve the way i sequence
anytime you would like to pop into the center and show us how its done that would be great. i look forward to seeing you, just pm me and we can organise a time.
ps bring your atc licence with you and we might even be able to swing it so you can have a chat on the airwaves.
as far as handing off 7.6,13.3 or 23.9nm. im sure that in all these fantastic places around the world the atc are awsome to watch and the pilots are godlike in their ability to do everything perfectally
but we atc in the middle east are only human and some of the operators are also less then perfect. so if i give dubai 11nm instead of 10 or 23,9 instead of 20 i hope you will forgive me.but i will offer again as i always would like to improve the way i sequence
anytime you would like to pop into the center and show us how its done that would be great. i look forward to seeing you, just pm me and we can organise a time.
ps bring your atc licence with you and we might even be able to swing it so you can have a chat on the airwaves.
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Ali Bin Somewhere
I hope this is not a typical ACC standard reply!
Hey, a lost 1 NM or 3,9 NM is extra delay for the next in the queue.
THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH BUDDY.
Can you imagine places like KJFK, KORD, EGLL, EDDF, EHAM wasting all these miles??? You would be fired (or never checked out). Even Zurich ACC is spacing in very very crowded airspace (exactly) 5 NMs.
So back on the horse Ali. Try to tighten up the spacing and you'll get rid of your hold a lot quicker
so if i give dubai 11nm instead of 10 or 23,9 instead of 20 i hope you will forgive me
Hey, a lost 1 NM or 3,9 NM is extra delay for the next in the queue.
THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH BUDDY.
Can you imagine places like KJFK, KORD, EGLL, EDDF, EHAM wasting all these miles??? You would be fired (or never checked out). Even Zurich ACC is spacing in very very crowded airspace (exactly) 5 NMs.
So back on the horse Ali. Try to tighten up the spacing and you'll get rid of your hold a lot quicker