Operations into Dubai - can they be improved?
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Sad to see this thread degenerate, almost from the first reply, into the slanging match I was attempting to get away from by opening the new thread. (I’m tempted to add my tuppence worth as well, particularly on Australian ATC, but I’m going to put away my tape measure, zip up my fly, and let it remain a mystery as to whether I’ve got a bigger one than the ATC bloke (or bloke-ette!!!) on the other end of the radio.)
So, avoiding the personal barb posts and the slanging off from both sides, and attempting to paraphrase the posts that actually came up with constructive suggestions, we have the following contributions:
1. Restrict the ‘minors’. I must say that I believe they are only a very small part of the problem and restricting them is unlikely to make a huge difference.
2. Slot times. But more than one respondent says they’re unlikely to work because of the difficulties they would create with nearby ATC agencies. I tend to agree with the naysayers on this point.
3. The A330. Slippery little sucker, we’d all agree, and with the best of intentions, many of its drivers find it difficult to adhere to ATC instructions and remain within EK company configuration requirements (which have been laid down in an attempt to avoid unstable approaches and unnecessary go arounds). To this, we could add -
4. Some EK pilots choose not to obey speed control. I have to admit to seeing this myself, when I’ve had FO’s adopt a speed other than what we’ve been told to take up. So I can only assume other captains condone or commit this.
5. Less than perfect co-ordination between UAE Area Control and Dubai Approach. If anyone believes there is no room for improvement here, they spend their working days at a desk and not in a cockpit or on a radar scope.
6. Poor R/T discipline (the clear inference being, ‘by some EK pilots’). I have to plead guilty of that myself on occasion at oh dark thirty at the end of a long night’s grind.
7. The gem from Outta Heresoon
I think this hits the nail squarely on the head if we want to properly address the problem that is the subject of this thread.
8. At the risk of causing offence, it’s probably worth adding the rest of his comment
I think few would argue that this can sometimes be a part of the problem. Bring on the famil. flights and I think this problem would disappear in a matter of months.
9. Nimmer’s very astute observation:
The current procedures are costing the operators a lot of money daily in totally unnecessary fuel burn, so much so that I can’t believe they’re not screaming for, or demanding, major changes to the system immediately if not sooner. But I suppose we’re making up part of those losses by delaying starting our APUs until we’re approaching the stand. Holding aside, surely it would not be impossible to come up with discrete arrivals procedures for each runway that will allow a constant descent to the ILS glide part? The current below 13,000’ requirement at ESAVO (sp?) etc ensures a fuel gobbling drag in over God alone knows how many miles for every aircraft in the arrivals sequence if the approach isn’t a straight in. Surely the 4Ts and the 3Vs could have different height requirements at these points to allow a constant descent?
10. I’ve saved the last suggestion I gleaned from the posts for last and in stating it, I’m NOT slagging off the controllers on UAE Area Control. The problem isn’t the controllers, but is stated clearly in Points 7 and 9.
I have to agree 110% with Schnowzer on this point. Let’s have close in holds that will allow us to remain clean (ie, 230 knots or above) until we commence the approach. DESDI and BUBIN could still be used in exceptional circumstances, but let Dubai Approach look after any holds on a near normal day. And let’s have STARS that allow a constant descent to the FAF if holding isn’t required.
Vorschit and Zomp, I understand where you’re coming from, but… all too often, throwing a couple of tonnes on for Mum and the kids simply isn’t an option.
So, avoiding the personal barb posts and the slanging off from both sides, and attempting to paraphrase the posts that actually came up with constructive suggestions, we have the following contributions:
1. Restrict the ‘minors’. I must say that I believe they are only a very small part of the problem and restricting them is unlikely to make a huge difference.
2. Slot times. But more than one respondent says they’re unlikely to work because of the difficulties they would create with nearby ATC agencies. I tend to agree with the naysayers on this point.
3. The A330. Slippery little sucker, we’d all agree, and with the best of intentions, many of its drivers find it difficult to adhere to ATC instructions and remain within EK company configuration requirements (which have been laid down in an attempt to avoid unstable approaches and unnecessary go arounds). To this, we could add -
4. Some EK pilots choose not to obey speed control. I have to admit to seeing this myself, when I’ve had FO’s adopt a speed other than what we’ve been told to take up. So I can only assume other captains condone or commit this.
5. Less than perfect co-ordination between UAE Area Control and Dubai Approach. If anyone believes there is no room for improvement here, they spend their working days at a desk and not in a cockpit or on a radar scope.
6. Poor R/T discipline (the clear inference being, ‘by some EK pilots’). I have to plead guilty of that myself on occasion at oh dark thirty at the end of a long night’s grind.
7. The gem from Outta Heresoon
I find generally the most limiting item in the equation is the regulations the controllers have to follow
8. At the risk of causing offence, it’s probably worth adding the rest of his comment
…with perhaps a smidgon of the controllers’ lack of appreciation for what the latest generation of aircraft are capable of and the pilot's inability to manage it properly.
9. Nimmer’s very astute observation:
…the one thing we are all in agreement is that the ATC procedures in the UAE need to be changed. Sad thing is the one person who isn't listening is the regulator!!!!
10. I’ve saved the last suggestion I gleaned from the posts for last and in stating it, I’m NOT slagging off the controllers on UAE Area Control. The problem isn’t the controllers, but is stated clearly in Points 7 and 9.
If Dubai controlled the holds they could then arrange what ever spacing they required.
Vorschit and Zomp, I understand where you’re coming from, but… all too often, throwing a couple of tonnes on for Mum and the kids simply isn’t an option.
Grandpa Aerotart
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 3
From: SWP
I cannot believe how quickly this thread degenerated into a squabble...
For me the following would help at DXB enormously;
1/. Seperate Clearance delivery freq,
2/. Seperate Ramp and Grnd Freq,
The political farce that is the airspace surrounding DXB is beyond our control so live with it like the professionals we are supposed to be.
For me the following would help at DXB enormously;
1/. Seperate Clearance delivery freq,
2/. Seperate Ramp and Grnd Freq,
The political farce that is the airspace surrounding DXB is beyond our control so live with it like the professionals we are supposed to be.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: ex OBBI
An interesting thread following on from the R/T discussion !
My summary .........
1. EK pilots are by far the most professional in the ME, if they get special "treatment" at LHR or other places then big deal, compared to the other operators in the ME (MSR, QTR) they are tops. At least they monitor the freq and answer first time. Yes, some spacing is excessive, but after repeating the same thing 3 or 4 times to some drongo on the other end of the radio, plan "A" is always going to turn out differently after running an extra 15 track miles playing 20 questions.
2. I started a thread some weeks ago asking pilots if they are able to meet separation requirments when instructed to make a time over a fix, as we have been attempting to do for some months to create some sort of arrival flow into one of our units. The summary was yes, but many pilots choose not to follow the requirement and couldnt care less.
3. Based on that, timed flow control has been largly abandoned, and we will not bother vectoring A/C all over the FIR to create gaps, we have got the go ahead to hold everybody and use timed approaches from the hold. Hopefully it will catch-on and be used more widely in the region.
4. Air Traffic Management in the ME is non-existant, the airspace is poorly designed and the route structure creates more conflicts than it solves. What worked 10 years ago is not suitable for the traffic in the ME today (and tomorrow, or for the next 15+ years)
5. On this thread some Pilots and ATC may be bitching about each other, but the common theme is that they all recognise that the current airspace around DXB and adjacent FIR's (and all of the associated procedures) is inadequate and inefficient.
6. There is no prevention and there is no concept of forward planning. It will require a major incident to invoke any change. Many people have given up trying to make the airspace safer and more efficient, more time is spent just maintaining basic separation, so therefore efficiency and finese have been pushed aside.
7. Even if the local management push for changes they are still governed by the CAA and other "interested parties" higher up, or by an adjacent unit who only have their own interests at heart, it is no joy ride for them either.
8. Yes, DXB is the busiest unit in the ME. Based on that, an airspace restructuring exerecise should be conducted centreing on DXB and involving all of the adjacent FIR's in an attempt to create a seamless route structure throughout the ME with flow control procedures for DXB from 200+ miles out.
Yeah, Right.........
My summary .........
1. EK pilots are by far the most professional in the ME, if they get special "treatment" at LHR or other places then big deal, compared to the other operators in the ME (MSR, QTR) they are tops. At least they monitor the freq and answer first time. Yes, some spacing is excessive, but after repeating the same thing 3 or 4 times to some drongo on the other end of the radio, plan "A" is always going to turn out differently after running an extra 15 track miles playing 20 questions.
2. I started a thread some weeks ago asking pilots if they are able to meet separation requirments when instructed to make a time over a fix, as we have been attempting to do for some months to create some sort of arrival flow into one of our units. The summary was yes, but many pilots choose not to follow the requirement and couldnt care less.
3. Based on that, timed flow control has been largly abandoned, and we will not bother vectoring A/C all over the FIR to create gaps, we have got the go ahead to hold everybody and use timed approaches from the hold. Hopefully it will catch-on and be used more widely in the region.
4. Air Traffic Management in the ME is non-existant, the airspace is poorly designed and the route structure creates more conflicts than it solves. What worked 10 years ago is not suitable for the traffic in the ME today (and tomorrow, or for the next 15+ years)
5. On this thread some Pilots and ATC may be bitching about each other, but the common theme is that they all recognise that the current airspace around DXB and adjacent FIR's (and all of the associated procedures) is inadequate and inefficient.
6. There is no prevention and there is no concept of forward planning. It will require a major incident to invoke any change. Many people have given up trying to make the airspace safer and more efficient, more time is spent just maintaining basic separation, so therefore efficiency and finese have been pushed aside.
7. Even if the local management push for changes they are still governed by the CAA and other "interested parties" higher up, or by an adjacent unit who only have their own interests at heart, it is no joy ride for them either.
8. Yes, DXB is the busiest unit in the ME. Based on that, an airspace restructuring exerecise should be conducted centreing on DXB and involving all of the adjacent FIR's in an attempt to create a seamless route structure throughout the ME with flow control procedures for DXB from 200+ miles out.
Yeah, Right.........
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: In the desert
ANSA
What exactly is the sector loading in Dubai, do you know? I heard max 8 or something, so forget the "Dubai rocks the boat effect" 
Ali Bin Somewhere
Calm as always...Sarcasm? eh yeah, but no, not really. Try to stay focussed and factual, that might help!
Why do you guys keep whinning. Write a fecking occurrence report until the problem is solved. Yeah yeah I know your reply its a never ending story etc. Do something about it.
Do you want me to replace you???
Fox3snapshot
DXB has got aprx 300 daily arrivals right? EK has got aprx 80 modern aircraft, which some of them will arrive a couple of times daily due to short routes etc., plus the odd number of other western build aircraft from several other airlines, lets say aprx 100 (BA, LH, GF, QR etc.), let say a total of 220 western build aircraft. Thats almost 75% of all arrivals then. Where's your problem? The number is probably higher anyway..
I'm no Gods gift, just professional in my spacing and job.
Try more than 15 aircraft. Some guys still think Dubai is some dusty backwater with no traffic.
Ali Bin Somewhere
sandy
you might like to calm down a bit . ever heard of sarcasm to make a point?
you might like to calm down a bit . ever heard of sarcasm to make a point?
yes an extra nm or 3 is an extra delay for the next guy, so when i tell the a/c to turn then he should turn not spend the next 20nm after responding scratching his arse wondering if that call was for him or one of the other 15 a/c in the sequence.
when he is told to slow down he should comply not take 3 reminders to slow down ie slow to 250IAS 20nm later confirm slowing to 250IAS? we are 300IAS confirm you want us slow 250IAS. 20nm later whats your speed? 300ias confirm you want us to slow now? that way we get the 10/20nm etc and you get to land earlier
you sound like a person of some experience with all things atc so i'll extend to you the same invite i did to Schnowzer. pm me, organise a time and come to the center and bring your licence so you can show us how its done
Schnowzer & Sandy i'm still waiting for you to pm so we can organise your visits!
You both appear to have years of experience in the ATC field at busy centers and maybe thats the sort of experience we need to have showing us how its done.
You both appear to have years of experience in the ATC field at busy centers and maybe thats the sort of experience we need to have showing us how its done.
Fox3snapshot
How many AN12 freighters, AN124's, TU134's and the like are they trying to sequence in the middle of a an RPT arrival rush where no flow control from adjacent sectors or slot times allows everybody to turn up at once
As I didn't go to the school of how to be "Gods gift to the world of aviation" as it appears you must have...I will just keep hoping that the acepting unit will take the odd extra mile!
Last edited by sandstorm inferno; 3rd May 2006 at 13:21.
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: The Sandpit
I agree with Chimbu Chuckles. Could I add "Give us data link for pre departure clearances." You can't get a word in edgeways on Ground freq during the 2 am and 8 am rushes.
Last edited by EffohX; 3rd May 2006 at 13:41.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,183
Likes: 0
From: Middle East
Hmmmmmm.....
Wow, now I am confused Sandstorm.
I was led to believe that there was only two places in the world that really know how to control...so pray tell, what other Mecca of Air Traffic Control exists, or have you playing TRACON on your home PC and waiting for an interview with NATS!
Wow, now I am confused Sandstorm.
I was led to believe that there was only two places in the world that really know how to control...so pray tell, what other Mecca of Air Traffic Control exists, or have you playing TRACON on your home PC and waiting for an interview with NATS!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: In the desert
I was led to believe that there was only two places in the world that really know how to control
Maybe its not you Fox but some of your colleagues definitely aren't the sharpest knives in town! Come on I've seen guys try to !!!! up 2 aircraft inbound AUH just to get 10 NM even after the AUH ATCO accepted level separation and the poor ACC guy with years of experience ended up with 20 NMs!!! HELLOOOOO... this is not a PC game as you like to refer to but the real world where fuel prices are a big burden on airlines. You most agree on that one (unless its you
) thats not good enough in ATC.If you wanna know I dont do Tracon or flight sim, hey I get enough from the real world and have a life outside the working hours (unlike some ATCs who fly London - Cape Town on flight sim.... well what else to do on your off days
)
)
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
For a person who claims to have experience as a controller, you really have no idea how it works. To say that because 25% of our traffic is Russian built stuff that in many cases is extremely slow compared to the Boeing and Airbus stuff we don't have a problem is amazing. Back wherever you supposedly worked, how many sequences did you do well where you had 1 in every 4 aircraft unable to increase above 200 Kts IAS. If you have a sequence of 10 and even 1 of them let alone 2 of them are AN12's and you have to give 20 NM in trail spacing to Dubai, you will have big problems. Of course you are gods gift, so I'm sure you would manage.
Anyway this thread has run its course and still the two sides of the fence are miles apart. I still feel there are a minority of pilots here, who because they really don't understand the pressures and limitations on the ATC'ers, feel they can continue to belittle the job we do, and show absolutely no respect for the job we do. We will continue to do the best job we can do, and to the pilots on here that appreciate what we do, thanks.
Anyway this thread has run its course and still the two sides of the fence are miles apart. I still feel there are a minority of pilots here, who because they really don't understand the pressures and limitations on the ATC'ers, feel they can continue to belittle the job we do, and show absolutely no respect for the job we do. We will continue to do the best job we can do, and to the pilots on here that appreciate what we do, thanks.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
If trying to get pilots to meet ATC requirements and to say what we need to hear on first contact is not constructive, then so be it. I thought that pointing these things out might help, but obviously you don't think so.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: Under a bar somewhere
Originally Posted by readytocopy
I know how to solve the problem....go to Boston, New York, Atlanta and get new ATC personals that dont freak out when the airspace has 5 aircraft or when the vis drops to 1km.
even better get rid of all the pilots who attempt to fly here and replace them with REAL pilots form {insert prefered country here} then at least we would get pilots who could fly/have correct r/t/meet requirements etc etc...............
Last edited by Ali Bin Somewhere; 6th May 2006 at 11:04.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: Under a bar somewhere
The almighty sandy
if you can do a better job then yes i'll go and retire to some app/twr unit somewhere...
incident reports are filed whenever an a/c stuffs it up.
still waiting for you to organise a time. instead of carrying on like a pork chop on here put your money where your mouth is. the longer you put it off the more we know you are full of
Do you want me to replace you???
Write a fecking occurrence report until the problem is solved. Yeah yeah I know your reply its a never ending story etc. Do something about it.
still waiting for you to organise a time. instead of carrying on like a pork chop on here put your money where your mouth is. the longer you put it off the more we know you are full of
Last edited by Ali Bin Somewhere; 6th May 2006 at 11:05.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
ANSA, first off apologies, as I have just re-read both the threads and for some reason I had associated you with some of the more negative, defensive and churlish comments posted by others. No excuses, I was wrong!
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: In the desert
still waiting for you to organise a time. instead of carrying on like a pork chop on here put your money where your mouth is. the longer you put it off the more we know you are full of ....
Are you completely stupid or what? Don't you need some simulator exercises to tighten up your spacing instead of wasting your time on me?
You should know that people just can't walz into the centre a plug in without an OJT permit, a contract, acc course etc. Stop wasting your time on this subject. I don't have an Area rating and I'm not looking for one either. I might see things differently but my qualifications are purely in an approach and tower world. And if I may say; I'm pretty good at it too
