DEC's at EK
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I can tell you B777 without a shadow of a doubt that 99% of the FOs are not happy that the DECs came in! I don't know what the percentages are but it is no where near 99%. You are right that the vast majority of FOs are vey professional and don't let their opinions get in the way of a safe flight.
I can see why you are very happy at Emirates. You are on the 10yr pay scale and making a lot more money than most of the captains already here and never had to live on the FOs salary. Keep Discovering!
I can see why you are very happy at Emirates. You are on the 10yr pay scale and making a lot more money than most of the captains already here and never had to live on the FOs salary. Keep Discovering!
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Thanks for pointing out the definition of the banned word. As was said earlier just because they don't cross a picket line does not make than pure.
Also thanks for going and telling the moderator about people using naughty words. It reminds me of when I was in primary school and the little teachers pet was always tattling on what the kids in school were doing. The teachers pet always got beat up as a result. So you must have gotton beaten up a lot when you were younger!
I am willing to accept that I am in a foreign country. They however are always comparing themselves to the outside world which is only natural and so am I.
Also thanks for going and telling the moderator about people using naughty words. It reminds me of when I was in primary school and the little teachers pet was always tattling on what the kids in school were doing. The teachers pet always got beat up as a result. So you must have gotton beaten up a lot when you were younger!
I am willing to accept that I am in a foreign country. They however are always comparing themselves to the outside world which is only natural and so am I.
Bring on the DEC,s I say if they can find a few more of those oldies 50+ who
really know there way around an Aircraft and how to manage a crew . These
guys are an asset to EK and are worth every Dirham.
Properly trained from old school Airlines and unassuming , just what we need.
Rainboy you should observe and learn.
really know there way around an Aircraft and how to manage a crew . These
guys are an asset to EK and are worth every Dirham.
Properly trained from old school Airlines and unassuming , just what we need.
Rainboy you should observe and learn.
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Re: DEC's at EK
To quote BlueEagle
"scab"
"One who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms"
Well well well, sounds as though the ol dictionary got the definition from EK employees.
"scab"
"One who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms"
Well well well, sounds as though the ol dictionary got the definition from EK employees.
Re: DEC's at EK
Its amazing that the majority of captains are trying to leave EK at the moment. There cannot be many guys who would want to come here if they are already a captain somewhere else , just to pick up a paycheck the same as a Cathay Pacific S/O................
The standard of the last lot in some cases was appaling and could get worse , no sane person with a good job would come here.
Thats why the f/os are pissed off especially the ones who were 777 or a330 captains before EK and they r still in the right seat.........
Personally i cant wait to get out of this mess , just waiting on results, good luck to those desperate enough to come here............
The standard of the last lot in some cases was appaling and could get worse , no sane person with a good job would come here.
Thats why the f/os are pissed off especially the ones who were 777 or a330 captains before EK and they r still in the right seat.........
Personally i cant wait to get out of this mess , just waiting on results, good luck to those desperate enough to come here............
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Re: DEC's at EK
<<......especially the ones who were 777 or a330 captains before EK and they r still in the right seat.>>
Presuming this is a (more or less) accurate statement, it surely must bring into question the ability of many of these same folks to ever command anything, let alone a large airliner.
Silly boys.
Presuming this is a (more or less) accurate statement, it surely must bring into question the ability of many of these same folks to ever command anything, let alone a large airliner.
Silly boys.
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Re: DEC's at EK
Having read throught this and many other Ek threads i would like to add a little.
Those guys that gave up their commands to got to EK took a risk which they evaluated. They sound like they are getting double crossed on what they were told.However if what they were told was not in writing then they were a little nieve to sign a contract and up sticks and move on the word of a stranger.You have my sympathy on the former , not the latter.
DEC are a fact of life in 90 percent of the industry. They come and go in my compay every year sometimes at the cost of a loyal f/o. Sometimes this is unfair , and sometimes the f/o is the only one who thinks he is ready. To not appreciate this fact adds to the possible nievety mentioned above.
As for the opinions that a dec can not operate as well as the f/os being shafted. Utter arrogance. The only reason they are i the right or left seat is career management and luck. I have never flown a 777. I do however have no problem operating my 738 all over the world under all types of conditions. I have a well respected authority licence, (not always the case with some icao recruits in ek).The alleged qualification that some guys espouse on here that allegedly leads them to babysit DEC is an aquired skill from route training/exposure, easily aquired by qualified pilots, not rocket science. (see next paragrph)
Some tossers may have slipped thru the net , that is an issue for your trianers, but I meet the entry requirements and if sucessful will apply the same professional attitude as I try to now. The only difference will be the bigger equipment and new sops.Going to tfs on t16 is domestic, going to newyork in an etops 738 is long haul, but its the same oceanic flight.Just longer. Landing at zth on a stormy dark autumn nighttired and stressed on a wet runway is shorthaul, doing the same sort of thing at nairobi is longhaul but the skills are the same.The eight or more hrs getting there are not hard to learn.Its the same job the differences are what line traing are for, and professional colleagues.
I was offered an f/o positon 2.5 years ago at Ek but made a difficult decision not to join. It seems that in this case it was cynicism on a good day and a bit of luck.
To summarise, its EK that have shafted the f/os not the DECs . Would you not apply in the same position?( save me the solidarity b.s.). If you get command at EK on say the bus. Would you join a new airline as an f'o if they offered you the left seat of a 380 in 5 years time.
I have been an expat for years . clearly some guys that joined ek looking for a quick upgrade werent, or had other motivation to take such a risk by giving up a left seat to come under the control of someone whos proirity is to keep his kids in private school in uk and his his missus at the club.
Not my fault mate.
Those guys that gave up their commands to got to EK took a risk which they evaluated. They sound like they are getting double crossed on what they were told.However if what they were told was not in writing then they were a little nieve to sign a contract and up sticks and move on the word of a stranger.You have my sympathy on the former , not the latter.
DEC are a fact of life in 90 percent of the industry. They come and go in my compay every year sometimes at the cost of a loyal f/o. Sometimes this is unfair , and sometimes the f/o is the only one who thinks he is ready. To not appreciate this fact adds to the possible nievety mentioned above.
As for the opinions that a dec can not operate as well as the f/os being shafted. Utter arrogance. The only reason they are i the right or left seat is career management and luck. I have never flown a 777. I do however have no problem operating my 738 all over the world under all types of conditions. I have a well respected authority licence, (not always the case with some icao recruits in ek).The alleged qualification that some guys espouse on here that allegedly leads them to babysit DEC is an aquired skill from route training/exposure, easily aquired by qualified pilots, not rocket science. (see next paragrph)
Some tossers may have slipped thru the net , that is an issue for your trianers, but I meet the entry requirements and if sucessful will apply the same professional attitude as I try to now. The only difference will be the bigger equipment and new sops.Going to tfs on t16 is domestic, going to newyork in an etops 738 is long haul, but its the same oceanic flight.Just longer. Landing at zth on a stormy dark autumn nighttired and stressed on a wet runway is shorthaul, doing the same sort of thing at nairobi is longhaul but the skills are the same.The eight or more hrs getting there are not hard to learn.Its the same job the differences are what line traing are for, and professional colleagues.
I was offered an f/o positon 2.5 years ago at Ek but made a difficult decision not to join. It seems that in this case it was cynicism on a good day and a bit of luck.
To summarise, its EK that have shafted the f/os not the DECs . Would you not apply in the same position?( save me the solidarity b.s.). If you get command at EK on say the bus. Would you join a new airline as an f'o if they offered you the left seat of a 380 in 5 years time.
I have been an expat for years . clearly some guys that joined ek looking for a quick upgrade werent, or had other motivation to take such a risk by giving up a left seat to come under the control of someone whos proirity is to keep his kids in private school in uk and his his missus at the club.
Not my fault mate.
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Re: DEC's at EK
There cannot be many guys who would want to come here if they are already a captain somewhere else , just to pick up a paycheck the same as a Cathay Pacific S/O................
Well said scooter!
So B777 what is your story? You must have been a hellava pilot with a hellava great company to think that this is Nirvana. But as was said before you are on 10 yr pay and bypassed all of the FOs, even the deserving ones. But that is right you worked at some fly by night operation and you think that most if not all the FOs are undeserving at EK. I got mine pull up the rope. This is industry would be so much better if we did not have so many self serving pilots.
Save me the BS about I would do the same thing if offered. If no DECs came in and cut off the FOs maybe some more current FOs would have the opportunity to do what you did.
Well said scooter!
So B777 what is your story? You must have been a hellava pilot with a hellava great company to think that this is Nirvana. But as was said before you are on 10 yr pay and bypassed all of the FOs, even the deserving ones. But that is right you worked at some fly by night operation and you think that most if not all the FOs are undeserving at EK. I got mine pull up the rope. This is industry would be so much better if we did not have so many self serving pilots.
Save me the BS about I would do the same thing if offered. If no DECs came in and cut off the FOs maybe some more current FOs would have the opportunity to do what you did.
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Re: DEC's at EK
As i cant edit my previous post for some reason, i would like to add.
If an ek pilot came to my company and was was given a command, i would not assume he would be incompetant because he is from another operating area. I would make sure that he added the particular idiosyncracies of our operation to his database , was informed of all the gotchas, and given an objective professional line training programme. I have been to over 150 different destinations with my current employer and would not be so arrogant to assume that a new hire should know all the details on his first season. Just because you are doing it now doesnt mean we cant. all operational enviroments are different, not better or worse than the other. Twin otter into 300 metres is fokker into 1000 metres is 737 into 1500 metres is 777 into 2500 metres.The addition of 5 cabin crew shouldnt alter the skills of a good pilot manger. Varying standards and proceedures across the world shouldnt pahse a good crew with the right brief available and good line training.Its all relative . Its the calibre of the individuals that counts. Those highly qualified high calibre guys that are being shafted have my sympathy but not the chippy whingers on here. unhappy with thier lot due to poor career gambles or decisions, or as is the case with many, trying to manipulate a short cut to a 777 or 340 that didnt work out.
Before I'm flamed I'm very familiar with Dubai, and would like to keep the issue down to the ones in the title of the thread.
So Lhr rain , obviously the answer is yes to doing the same thing if you had the chance then. Its just that you (or your colleagues) dont have the chance, that makes you a hippocrite. If you are a blocked fo at ek, i'm sorry but i dont know you and am not responsible for you decisions, or contract .
If an ek pilot came to my company and was was given a command, i would not assume he would be incompetant because he is from another operating area. I would make sure that he added the particular idiosyncracies of our operation to his database , was informed of all the gotchas, and given an objective professional line training programme. I have been to over 150 different destinations with my current employer and would not be so arrogant to assume that a new hire should know all the details on his first season. Just because you are doing it now doesnt mean we cant. all operational enviroments are different, not better or worse than the other. Twin otter into 300 metres is fokker into 1000 metres is 737 into 1500 metres is 777 into 2500 metres.The addition of 5 cabin crew shouldnt alter the skills of a good pilot manger. Varying standards and proceedures across the world shouldnt pahse a good crew with the right brief available and good line training.Its all relative . Its the calibre of the individuals that counts. Those highly qualified high calibre guys that are being shafted have my sympathy but not the chippy whingers on here. unhappy with thier lot due to poor career gambles or decisions, or as is the case with many, trying to manipulate a short cut to a 777 or 340 that didnt work out.
Before I'm flamed I'm very familiar with Dubai, and would like to keep the issue down to the ones in the title of the thread.
So Lhr rain , obviously the answer is yes to doing the same thing if you had the chance then. Its just that you (or your colleagues) dont have the chance, that makes you a hippocrite. If you are a blocked fo at ek, i'm sorry but i dont know you and am not responsible for you decisions, or contract .
Last edited by bushbolox; 2nd Jan 2006 at 14:57.
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EK DEC Decision
I want to thank everybody that replied to my many questions and PM me. It is all good information and thanks for taking the trouble to answer.
I think that I am going to wait and see how it goes at my company. We just went into bankruptcy and that is always bad but at the very least we have a couple of years before the you know what really hits the fan. I still believe this is a basic exercise to bust the union and get what UAL and US Air did to their pilots.
I would have a hard time justifying jumping the many qualified FOs currently at Emirates. I was a recipient of a senority system that allowed me to get my experience and it would be wrong of me to usurp that senority list now. As I said in an earlier post the USA does not allow DECs because of the emotion of the topic.
I still have a good job. It is not the job I signed up for but I still make good money. If I had to put food on the table that would be another matter but since I have a good job that pays very well (especially compared to the world's airlines) I would just be taking a qualified FOs captaincy and I would probably have a hard time sleeping at night.
I can't believe 90% of the world allows direct entry captains. Certainly there must only be only a handful of Emirates first officers that can't upgrade. From what I have read I know that to be the case. To the many qualified pilots at Emirates in both seats I wish you well. It sounds like the mangement there does not see the forest because of the trees and probably hates pilots to boot. Too bad someone or something has to actually fly the planes.
Good luck to us all!
I think that I am going to wait and see how it goes at my company. We just went into bankruptcy and that is always bad but at the very least we have a couple of years before the you know what really hits the fan. I still believe this is a basic exercise to bust the union and get what UAL and US Air did to their pilots.
I would have a hard time justifying jumping the many qualified FOs currently at Emirates. I was a recipient of a senority system that allowed me to get my experience and it would be wrong of me to usurp that senority list now. As I said in an earlier post the USA does not allow DECs because of the emotion of the topic.
I still have a good job. It is not the job I signed up for but I still make good money. If I had to put food on the table that would be another matter but since I have a good job that pays very well (especially compared to the world's airlines) I would just be taking a qualified FOs captaincy and I would probably have a hard time sleeping at night.
I can't believe 90% of the world allows direct entry captains. Certainly there must only be only a handful of Emirates first officers that can't upgrade. From what I have read I know that to be the case. To the many qualified pilots at Emirates in both seats I wish you well. It sounds like the mangement there does not see the forest because of the trees and probably hates pilots to boot. Too bad someone or something has to actually fly the planes.
Good luck to us all!
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Re: DEC's at EK
DEC are a fact of life in 90 percent of the industry
Like BA, Qantas, UA, KLM, Lufthansa, Olympic, Conty, ANZ, Air France, Air Canada, Egyptair, SAA, etc, etc, etc... 90%??? Bolox.
You've just proved that "90% of statistics are made up ion the spot."
I have been an expat for years
"I'm alright, Jack."
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Re: EK DEC Decision
On the assumption you're not jerkin our chains, then I salute your integrity, honesty and sensibility.
Ignore the 90% business. It is just some tripe trotted out by people with different morals to yours.
I recognise what you say about food on the table.
Ignore the 90% business. It is just some tripe trotted out by people with different morals to yours.
I recognise what you say about food on the table.
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Re: DEC's at EK
This is a worldwide circulation LHR Rain. If not me than another DEC`s would take the job. One of our FO`s recently resigned, he is going to a Low Cost Airline in Europe as a DEC. So is he a bad guy?
This was an upper mngmt decision and everybody has to live with it.
In my previous company we got DEC`s as well and I had to fly with them. I wasnt happy about DEC`s in the beginning but later it was a great experience. It is just a matter of maturity.
This was an upper mngmt decision and everybody has to live with it.
In my previous company we got DEC`s as well and I had to fly with them. I wasnt happy about DEC`s in the beginning but later it was a great experience. It is just a matter of maturity.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
new tomcat
In 90% of the world when an airline goes into bankruptcy then you lose your job immediately. I would suggest that would change your attitude somewhat.
For your information DEC's have been a regular happening for years at Airlines such as Singapore, Saudia, Korean ,Asiana, China Airlines,Gulf Air , Qatar,Eva Air and even Emirates. Some such as GF and EK only open the doors according to their needs, hence now certain F/O's in EK rightfully feeling aggrieved , not that that should deter anyone who thinks they want to work for EK. In aviation you have to fight your own battles once you become an ex-pat as you are on your own with no back up on the employment front.
PS Happy New Year White Knight
In 90% of the world when an airline goes into bankruptcy then you lose your job immediately. I would suggest that would change your attitude somewhat.
For your information DEC's have been a regular happening for years at Airlines such as Singapore, Saudia, Korean ,Asiana, China Airlines,Gulf Air , Qatar,Eva Air and even Emirates. Some such as GF and EK only open the doors according to their needs, hence now certain F/O's in EK rightfully feeling aggrieved , not that that should deter anyone who thinks they want to work for EK. In aviation you have to fight your own battles once you become an ex-pat as you are on your own with no back up on the employment front.
PS Happy New Year White Knight
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Re: DEC's at EK
So maybe B777 when I get to your maturity I will have your view point. Having said that what "fabulous" airline did you come from that makes EK look like Nirvana to you?
So does the LCC in Europe not have upgradable FOs? Every FO here at EK is upgradable and very qualified and you know it. It is mangement that chooses to hire superior airman like yourself to save on training costs and screw the current FOs. You knew it before you took this job and still you justify it because you betterd yourself and not to many pilots will blame you on that one.
Just keep in mind as I said above we are not from Singapore, Saudia, Korean, Malyasian etc, etc. We are very qualifed and from the first world and we don't need anyone jumping us on the senority list. You are right it is a fact that you are here and we have to live with it but we don't have to like it. The vast majority of FOs here don't like the policy. It is just that we are so professional that you have not come across it in the cockpit, CBC or anywhere else.
So does the LCC in Europe not have upgradable FOs? Every FO here at EK is upgradable and very qualified and you know it. It is mangement that chooses to hire superior airman like yourself to save on training costs and screw the current FOs. You knew it before you took this job and still you justify it because you betterd yourself and not to many pilots will blame you on that one.
Just keep in mind as I said above we are not from Singapore, Saudia, Korean, Malyasian etc, etc. We are very qualifed and from the first world and we don't need anyone jumping us on the senority list. You are right it is a fact that you are here and we have to live with it but we don't have to like it. The vast majority of FOs here don't like the policy. It is just that we are so professional that you have not come across it in the cockpit, CBC or anywhere else.
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Re: DEC's at EK
It seems that you have quoted the 5 percent of airlines that are flag carriers and have a structure sometimes heavily subsidised and in many cases just uneconomic protectionism. Ba have hired dec in the past, go figure.Following that logic are you taking a job from the local mrats by filling an f/o spot. Do you think they are happy about all the infidels stealing their thunder. Certainly werent in Africa .I will concede that my figures were arbitrary but the industry as a whole still supports my theory.
Im not a flying whore old chap but have been exposed to the expat world for years and as a result was cautious. It seems i had a bit of luck if you represent the general disgruntled elements as i would be pissed off like you. Like i said I am aware of the good guys that got shafted, but if you can see thru your red mist and have a genuine wide experience of the industry you will see that although not the best option it is a way of life. Picture this, ba have a strike, your british ,meet their changed requirements.People get laid off you get a job offer as a skipper in the revamped ba.Assuming you want to get back to uk , would you ask the people below you or the people that left if they were happy and would that affect your decision? I think not. It boils down to one thing. You're getting shafted , thats a shame, but dubai is not the flat earth, you are starting to believe the self perpetuating usual expat mentality that only you can do it. Wrong on all social and skill levels. and bad for your blood pressure.
Im not a flying whore old chap but have been exposed to the expat world for years and as a result was cautious. It seems i had a bit of luck if you represent the general disgruntled elements as i would be pissed off like you. Like i said I am aware of the good guys that got shafted, but if you can see thru your red mist and have a genuine wide experience of the industry you will see that although not the best option it is a way of life. Picture this, ba have a strike, your british ,meet their changed requirements.People get laid off you get a job offer as a skipper in the revamped ba.Assuming you want to get back to uk , would you ask the people below you or the people that left if they were happy and would that affect your decision? I think not. It boils down to one thing. You're getting shafted , thats a shame, but dubai is not the flat earth, you are starting to believe the self perpetuating usual expat mentality that only you can do it. Wrong on all social and skill levels. and bad for your blood pressure.
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Re: EK DEC Decision
Originally Posted by millerscourt
new tomcat
In 90% of the world when an airline goes into bankruptcy then you lose your job immediately. I would suggest that would change your attitude somewhat.
For your information DEC's have been a regular happening for years at Airlines such as Singapore, Saudia, Korean ,Asiana, China Airlines,Gulf Air , Qatar,Eva Air and even Emirates. Some such as GF and EK only open the doors according to their needs, hence now certain F/O's in EK rightfully feeling aggrieved , not that that should deter anyone who thinks they want to work for EK. In aviation you have to fight your own battles once you become an ex-pat as you are on your own with no back up on the employment front.
PS Happy New Year White Knight
In 90% of the world when an airline goes into bankruptcy then you lose your job immediately. I would suggest that would change your attitude somewhat.
For your information DEC's have been a regular happening for years at Airlines such as Singapore, Saudia, Korean ,Asiana, China Airlines,Gulf Air , Qatar,Eva Air and even Emirates. Some such as GF and EK only open the doors according to their needs, hence now certain F/O's in EK rightfully feeling aggrieved , not that that should deter anyone who thinks they want to work for EK. In aviation you have to fight your own battles once you become an ex-pat as you are on your own with no back up on the employment front.
PS Happy New Year White Knight
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Re: DEC's at EK
Only 5% of carriers... another truly bogus and awesome stat! Even if it is accurate, these carriers are all huge and represent a sizeavle proportion of the job market out there, which was the point.
In the BA scenario you paint, the end-result would seem to be best described by the 4-letter word we're not allowed to mention here. Seems it DID happen recently, in the late 80s you may recall. If that's your background - one of those who left - you are remarkably mellow for the experience!!
Yes we all have to look out for number one but there is a time and a place for it and I gather many hands think EK was not the place. With the advent of DECs (and the assistance of the "accelerated" program) the drivers at EK are encouraged to think of themselves at the expense of others.
And as someone else alluded to, EK is not hiring DECs or leap-frogging the 18month guys ahead because the locals are crashing all the aircraft, as in certain other airlines.
In the BA scenario you paint, the end-result would seem to be best described by the 4-letter word we're not allowed to mention here. Seems it DID happen recently, in the late 80s you may recall. If that's your background - one of those who left - you are remarkably mellow for the experience!!
Yes we all have to look out for number one but there is a time and a place for it and I gather many hands think EK was not the place. With the advent of DECs (and the assistance of the "accelerated" program) the drivers at EK are encouraged to think of themselves at the expense of others.
And as someone else alluded to, EK is not hiring DECs or leap-frogging the 18month guys ahead because the locals are crashing all the aircraft, as in certain other airlines.