DEC's at EK
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: here
Posts: 259
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jack D - next time you go flying how about asking some of the guys what their experience levels are both LHS and RHS, you may be surprised with what you find! Maybe you haven't flown with any really experienced FOs or less experienced Capts but here are a couple of things that come to mind:
1. I saw a DEC getting out of an a/c the other day with a FO who used to have a wide-widebody command, he has vast amounts of experience almost certainly equal to the DEC - he came here just as the rules changed and now cannot get back into the left hand seat until his 3 years are up.
2. I know of several other FOs who were trained by TRIs with less experience than they had. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the TRIs apparently (as I wasn't there) were very good at what they did, but they did not have a lot of experience to fall back on.
3. Would you class a Capt that has spent all his life flying around one area of the world in one type of aircraft doing one type of flying experienced? I wouldn't necessarily say so. Variety is the spice of life and builds experience?
Experience is a worth its weight in gold, at EK it is something I personally think that we lack in a number of areas.
We also have a vast ability range in both the LHS and RHS, so how about less of the sweeping statements please. Ta
PS use the experience in the company before resorting to DECs!!
1. I saw a DEC getting out of an a/c the other day with a FO who used to have a wide-widebody command, he has vast amounts of experience almost certainly equal to the DEC - he came here just as the rules changed and now cannot get back into the left hand seat until his 3 years are up.
2. I know of several other FOs who were trained by TRIs with less experience than they had. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the TRIs apparently (as I wasn't there) were very good at what they did, but they did not have a lot of experience to fall back on.
3. Would you class a Capt that has spent all his life flying around one area of the world in one type of aircraft doing one type of flying experienced? I wouldn't necessarily say so. Variety is the spice of life and builds experience?
Experience is a worth its weight in gold, at EK it is something I personally think that we lack in a number of areas.
We also have a vast ability range in both the LHS and RHS, so how about less of the sweeping statements please. Ta
PS use the experience in the company before resorting to DECs!!
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gulf playing Golf
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MiniCooper
Welll your friend lost his job back home, and was able to get one with EK. And in 3 fast years he will be back in the left seat again. No big deal. If he cant accept it, then the right thing to do is to resign.
One signs a contract, with the possibility of a command within a certain time, but the FOM clearly explains the principles.
I have flown with many ex commanders, actually almost all but the former cadets, and noone is whinning about it. Some are actually happy to get the oppotunity to see things from the RHS seat.
I only hope that EK will give transition upgrades when they run out of B777 FOs. That would be a bonus!
I would certainly call a pilot who has flown one type of aircraft in one type of environment for the last 20 years full of experience. Very few pilots get the chance to fly truly worldwide. Cant really name an airline that flies to Greenland and Australia...
Welll your friend lost his job back home, and was able to get one with EK. And in 3 fast years he will be back in the left seat again. No big deal. If he cant accept it, then the right thing to do is to resign.
One signs a contract, with the possibility of a command within a certain time, but the FOM clearly explains the principles.
I have flown with many ex commanders, actually almost all but the former cadets, and noone is whinning about it. Some are actually happy to get the oppotunity to see things from the RHS seat.
I only hope that EK will give transition upgrades when they run out of B777 FOs. That would be a bonus!
I would certainly call a pilot who has flown one type of aircraft in one type of environment for the last 20 years full of experience. Very few pilots get the chance to fly truly worldwide. Cant really name an airline that flies to Greenland and Australia...
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why are we getting into trying to compare experience? For what its worth, and coming from me, not much. It is a myth that getting more hours gains experience. Initially it is true that hours mean something but beyond about 2500 as an F/O and 1000 more as a commander, zip. I sat on my ass for 8 hours today going to the UK and just got 8hrs older, a little fatter but not more experienced.
If the company has run out of F/Os that meet their command criteria and want to expand; then they need DECs. For the DECs to be of any use and to have any worthwhile experience; They must be:
1. A commander
2. Qualified on type
3. Used to flying on worldwide ops.
A 15,000 hour 'Captain' is not twice as good as a 7,500 hour Captain, just a little older. The stats actually say they have a higher accident risk for what it is worth. I actually don't believe in hours, I believe in a meritocracy but then the whole aviation industry would collapse and we'd all be DECs rather than just legends in our own lunch times.
EK need to determine what competencies they require in their Captains and promote when they have achieved them; in order of seniority. The flaw is that this system would require honesty and humility. If they don't have enough to promote they will need to hire DECs; but they must have the experience above.
We have had the ludicrous situation of a 737 'Captain, Bill' of whom we have 3 days experience at the interview recruited to the 330 as a DEC. But a 737 'Captain, George', with marginally fewer 'hours', that has spent 2 years working for EK on the 330 is considered ineligible. One word bizarre!
Apparently one of our esteemed managers was qouted as saying 'But Bill is a Captain!' How do you deal with that mentality? Next we will be employing mates even if they fail the assessment.
If we want to move forward we have to assess true experience based upon what a pilot has accomplished during their career. Just counting hours doesn't work. If I took a different measure and said, say, landings, all wide body commanders would be helo pilots.
Cerberus
If the company has run out of F/Os that meet their command criteria and want to expand; then they need DECs. For the DECs to be of any use and to have any worthwhile experience; They must be:
1. A commander
2. Qualified on type
3. Used to flying on worldwide ops.
A 15,000 hour 'Captain' is not twice as good as a 7,500 hour Captain, just a little older. The stats actually say they have a higher accident risk for what it is worth. I actually don't believe in hours, I believe in a meritocracy but then the whole aviation industry would collapse and we'd all be DECs rather than just legends in our own lunch times.
EK need to determine what competencies they require in their Captains and promote when they have achieved them; in order of seniority. The flaw is that this system would require honesty and humility. If they don't have enough to promote they will need to hire DECs; but they must have the experience above.
We have had the ludicrous situation of a 737 'Captain, Bill' of whom we have 3 days experience at the interview recruited to the 330 as a DEC. But a 737 'Captain, George', with marginally fewer 'hours', that has spent 2 years working for EK on the 330 is considered ineligible. One word bizarre!
Apparently one of our esteemed managers was qouted as saying 'But Bill is a Captain!' How do you deal with that mentality? Next we will be employing mates even if they fail the assessment.
If we want to move forward we have to assess true experience based upon what a pilot has accomplished during their career. Just counting hours doesn't work. If I took a different measure and said, say, landings, all wide body commanders would be helo pilots.
Cerberus
Last edited by Cerberus; 23rd Jun 2005 at 16:23.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bolivia
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
mini cooper
Your argument lacks consistency.
You claim our TRI's and Emirates have little experience, yet on the other hand you claim that our F/O's have so much experience that they should be considered over DEC's.
Remember that experienced F/O's are not new at EK. We have always had them. Most of our current TRI's were previously extremely experienced F/O's. Most with command experience, many with significant training experience.
You claim our TRI's and Emirates have little experience, yet on the other hand you claim that our F/O's have so much experience that they should be considered over DEC's.
Remember that experienced F/O's are not new at EK. We have always had them. Most of our current TRI's were previously extremely experienced F/O's. Most with command experience, many with significant training experience.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Bit nosey aren't you
Posts: 455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EKwife,
You are absolutely right, we should not slag off the airline without a clear idea of where our agenda leads. I think you quoted your husbands longevity as a measure of experience (you have deleted all you posts, so who knows!) You did say though 'The problem with posting on this forum is - if anyone posts anything positive they are in "la la land" and "still in the honeymoon period"'
I am still generally positive about EK but my confidence in DXB took a hit when my family's car was totalled on a roundabout. Not EK's fault but it removed my rose tinted specs. There is a 'honeymoon period', what happens is that when you first arrive you are massively positive. When I first got here all I could see were 'Mega-skyscrapers'. Now all I can see is the sand in between. It doesn't mean that I think EK is a bad job, I don't believe it is nor do I think all the wingeing on the site will change that. But....by coming to DXB you gain some things but give up home! Ask yourself whether you and hubs would have come to EK on an F/O's salary for 10 years and then maybe you might have a better insight into some of the other poster's complaints.
Ghost
You are absolutely right, we should not slag off the airline without a clear idea of where our agenda leads. I think you quoted your husbands longevity as a measure of experience (you have deleted all you posts, so who knows!) You did say though 'The problem with posting on this forum is - if anyone posts anything positive they are in "la la land" and "still in the honeymoon period"'
I am still generally positive about EK but my confidence in DXB took a hit when my family's car was totalled on a roundabout. Not EK's fault but it removed my rose tinted specs. There is a 'honeymoon period', what happens is that when you first arrive you are massively positive. When I first got here all I could see were 'Mega-skyscrapers'. Now all I can see is the sand in between. It doesn't mean that I think EK is a bad job, I don't believe it is nor do I think all the wingeing on the site will change that. But....by coming to DXB you gain some things but give up home! Ask yourself whether you and hubs would have come to EK on an F/O's salary for 10 years and then maybe you might have a better insight into some of the other poster's complaints.
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 23rd Jun 2005 at 17:21.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Dubai
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Payscale
You`re a typical EK man, think FOM!
Nothwistanding that EK FOM is probably the worst aviation document ever written. Don`t even think this is `the law` and `the rules` and therefore we should obey and be noble. Look at the cabin crew FTL, they are not of this world. Look at `general flight rules`, that chapter is simply the biggest joke ever.
Unfortunetely it`s the people behind the FOM, and the management that show there incapability to run an airline/flight ops. Instead they keep themselves busy with partypolitics, which means elbows and how not to get fired. How long do you think Tcas will last?
The command criteria change whenever they like. They probably change soon , because the current ones don`t match future and current growth. They don`t have anything to do with what`s `logical` or `general aviation criteria`. So Cerberus, I think , is right by saying that current experience criteria, ie flying hours, are not the best method of hiring pilots.
As for keeping the enormous amount of experience of the F/O `s dormant, there`s either a plan (doubt it) or plain stupidity. It`s a matter of using your own in house experience and employees versus people from outside. Guess what`s the best ( and cheapest) option.
I don`t write much on this forum, because I got to think of my next medical. But Payscale please, and others with the same argument that `if you don`t like it you should resign`, think again, and OUTSIDE THE BOX, thanks. I hope you know what that means.
Oh, and Ekwife, management doesn`t read Pprune. That`s criticism and that`s considered very bad in the Victorian Age management style that looks at there employees as costs and not as assets.
Better stick you`re head in the sand below Red dune, see no evil,.......
Happy fighting cheers
You`re a typical EK man, think FOM!
Nothwistanding that EK FOM is probably the worst aviation document ever written. Don`t even think this is `the law` and `the rules` and therefore we should obey and be noble. Look at the cabin crew FTL, they are not of this world. Look at `general flight rules`, that chapter is simply the biggest joke ever.
Unfortunetely it`s the people behind the FOM, and the management that show there incapability to run an airline/flight ops. Instead they keep themselves busy with partypolitics, which means elbows and how not to get fired. How long do you think Tcas will last?
The command criteria change whenever they like. They probably change soon , because the current ones don`t match future and current growth. They don`t have anything to do with what`s `logical` or `general aviation criteria`. So Cerberus, I think , is right by saying that current experience criteria, ie flying hours, are not the best method of hiring pilots.
As for keeping the enormous amount of experience of the F/O `s dormant, there`s either a plan (doubt it) or plain stupidity. It`s a matter of using your own in house experience and employees versus people from outside. Guess what`s the best ( and cheapest) option.
I don`t write much on this forum, because I got to think of my next medical. But Payscale please, and others with the same argument that `if you don`t like it you should resign`, think again, and OUTSIDE THE BOX, thanks. I hope you know what that means.
Oh, and Ekwife, management doesn`t read Pprune. That`s criticism and that`s considered very bad in the Victorian Age management style that looks at there employees as costs and not as assets.
Better stick you`re head in the sand below Red dune, see no evil,.......
Happy fighting cheers
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason the DEC program is here has nothing to do with experience. The DEC's can do the job and so can most of the current EK FO's.
So why have a program that upsets most of our pilots?
One word. HEDGING
So why have a program that upsets most of our pilots?
One word. HEDGING
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Dubai
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How long do you think Tcas will last?
SVPFO Sacrificially Valuable Person For Offloading
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How much do you think Etihad will pay for a new Captain in 2007? 30,000...40,000...50,000 dhs per month. Who can tell, market forces will determine that. One thing is for sure, if a new Captain can demand the bigger salaries, about 400 FO's at Emirates will all of a sudden become "experienced" and Emirates will continue to get bums in the left seat for under 30,000 dhs. In the meantime management are going to continue hedging there bets and they will not allow that commodity in the right seat to dry up. Count on it.
Welcome to the Emirates Pilots Hedge Fund.
Keep Discovering.
Welcome to the Emirates Pilots Hedge Fund.
Keep Discovering.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Gulf playing Golf
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BYLAW
I do partially agree with you. Dont take me for one of those who spend their days off at the office, trying to nose their way in.
However, in a company like ours, where there is no communication between us and them, how do you suggest we think out of the box.
I dont know too much about the FOM, because someone cut it out of the budget, so I dont have a readable copy, but it is the legal document that dictates our operations. Good or bad, I vaguely remember the first page said something about Approved by UAE GCAA.
The fact is, we are expanding. We are not getting enough pilots. Some are leaving, but that is not alarmingly many. What are they going to do about it.
Remember what EZY did some years back
I do partially agree with you. Dont take me for one of those who spend their days off at the office, trying to nose their way in.
However, in a company like ours, where there is no communication between us and them, how do you suggest we think out of the box.
I dont know too much about the FOM, because someone cut it out of the budget, so I dont have a readable copy, but it is the legal document that dictates our operations. Good or bad, I vaguely remember the first page said something about Approved by UAE GCAA.
The fact is, we are expanding. We are not getting enough pilots. Some are leaving, but that is not alarmingly many. What are they going to do about it.
Remember what EZY did some years back
Join Date: May 2005
Location: IN THE PIT
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With regard to sicko the psycho, if he wants to learn from DECs then he should read the Weekly safety reports "recently" and especially learn from the DEC (with new FO) and the Whoop Whoop PU,PU!
That said todays Words of Wisdom
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
My inferiority complex is not as good as yours.
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
That said todays Words of Wisdom
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
My inferiority complex is not as good as yours.
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
Whingey do you really waste your time matching the crews to
the safety reports why ? isn,t that a little amateur . The
event that you mentioned is in a well known area and has
occured before still not good though . Wouldn,t a structured
and relevant Route Ops course be a good idea ? strangely I
can only remember dangerous goods .
Eveyone is in this together and bickering is useless
I don,t care if someone is a DEC ,.a regular 3 yearer,
came from Duff Air or a major carrier they are all EK pilots
some better than others , that,s all . I am sorry for those who
missed out on the DEC policy if they joined before the
programme was in place , particularly as I am one of them,
but life goes on .
I liked your words of wisdom Here,s mine....
Remember it could happen to you !
Jack
the safety reports why ? isn,t that a little amateur . The
event that you mentioned is in a well known area and has
occured before still not good though . Wouldn,t a structured
and relevant Route Ops course be a good idea ? strangely I
can only remember dangerous goods .
Eveyone is in this together and bickering is useless
I don,t care if someone is a DEC ,.a regular 3 yearer,
came from Duff Air or a major carrier they are all EK pilots
some better than others , that,s all . I am sorry for those who
missed out on the DEC policy if they joined before the
programme was in place , particularly as I am one of them,
but life goes on .
I liked your words of wisdom Here,s mine....
Remember it could happen to you !
Jack
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Windermere, Florida
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EK Pilots:
Did I miss something here? I thought EK had stopped DEC's with the exception of the A-310. Can someone confirm this please.
This is no flame bait just trying to understand.
BDD
Did I miss something here? I thought EK had stopped DEC's with the exception of the A-310. Can someone confirm this please.
This is no flame bait just trying to understand.
BDD
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Windermere, Florida
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TM,
Thank's for the info. With all the A/C on order, will EK
be able to draw in the pilots they need? I think all the F/O's
that you have at this time should get the LHS within 2 years.
Just my opinion(if you have the time).
BDD
Thank's for the info. With all the A/C on order, will EK
be able to draw in the pilots they need? I think all the F/O's
that you have at this time should get the LHS within 2 years.
Just my opinion(if you have the time).
BDD
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: in the kitchen
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New EK transition upgrade policy
FCI coming up with new transition upgrade policy......(maybe a little more solid than just a rumor...)
It'll be on a trial basis and only for "accelerated command" qualified F/Os.....
mad
It'll be on a trial basis and only for "accelerated command" qualified F/Os.....
mad
"Accelerated command"???? that's a quick way to make friends also.....Man I'm glad I'm not working for EK!
Same to hear that EK is an airline that does not respect their employees (seniority).
Well I guess this is to be expected, at the end of the day the "rules" can be change at anytime, since you have no rights.
Cheers..
Same to hear that EK is an airline that does not respect their employees (seniority).
Well I guess this is to be expected, at the end of the day the "rules" can be change at anytime, since you have no rights.
Cheers..
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Europe
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am about to join ek and I still have big doubts.....
Can you explain better the accelerated command thing?
If I decide to join it would be only because of the quick command they advertise.
Will I be disappointed?
Can you explain better the accelerated command thing?
If I decide to join it would be only because of the quick command they advertise.
Will I be disappointed?