Calling all experienced pilots...we need help!!
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Kash,
You have said previously that you would pay for a type rating if you did have a guaranteed jon at the end of it once you have passed the TR to aairline standard,so then why not apply to ryanair i have not read many of your previous posts so there maybe a good reason but i am sure you have spent a significant amount of money traveling to africa and all around the UK,would it not have been better to spennd this on a ryanair TR and proboboly have a jet job by now...?
You have said previously that you would pay for a type rating if you did have a guaranteed jon at the end of it once you have passed the TR to aairline standard,so then why not apply to ryanair i have not read many of your previous posts so there maybe a good reason but i am sure you have spent a significant amount of money traveling to africa and all around the UK,would it not have been better to spennd this on a ryanair TR and proboboly have a jet job by now...?
Maybe if you'd made contacts, instead of heading off to Africa??? you might find things different. I realised very early on that in aviation, contacts and knowing people in the right places can get you a long way.
No-one is going to knock on your door and say 'Here's a £50k/yr job in the LHS of my 777'
Don't complain when you get nowhere. Look at what you can do correctly, rather than dwelling on the fact all is doom and gloom.
PS, I saw a sign in McDonalds looking for staff!
No-one is going to knock on your door and say 'Here's a £50k/yr job in the LHS of my 777'
Don't complain when you get nowhere. Look at what you can do correctly, rather than dwelling on the fact all is doom and gloom.
PS, I saw a sign in McDonalds looking for staff!
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Helimutt
£50000 for LHS in a 777?? I dont think they would get get many experienced TR,ed skippers applying for that one hahaha!!
....er have things really got that bad!!
Alpha
£50000 for LHS in a 777?? I dont think they would get get many experienced TR,ed skippers applying for that one hahaha!!
....er have things really got that bad!!Alpha
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Heading to Africa was not a bad move. It was unfortunate that there were no jobs at the time.
Kash has made contacts that may not pay off right now but they may in the future.
Contacts are vital. I have got a few jobs on contacts. But all the contacts in the world cannot conjure up a job if there is no job there. BUT, they can keep you (the hopeful) in the loop. It is the "hopeful's" task to keep their skills up to speed to capitalise on the opportunity when it arises.
Folks,
Keep a weather eye on Flight International. Look for jobs for sim instructors, engineers etc. That means 1 thing. Expansion.
Look for those who have hired low houred pilots in the past, apply BEFORE they are calling for them. You have to be in first. However, don't waste your time with airlines that have never hired low houred pilots.
Be flexible but don't compromise yourself.
Good luck.
Kash has made contacts that may not pay off right now but they may in the future.
Contacts are vital. I have got a few jobs on contacts. But all the contacts in the world cannot conjure up a job if there is no job there. BUT, they can keep you (the hopeful) in the loop. It is the "hopeful's" task to keep their skills up to speed to capitalise on the opportunity when it arises.
Folks,
Keep a weather eye on Flight International. Look for jobs for sim instructors, engineers etc. That means 1 thing. Expansion.
Look for those who have hired low houred pilots in the past, apply BEFORE they are calling for them. You have to be in first. However, don't waste your time with airlines that have never hired low houred pilots.
Be flexible but don't compromise yourself.
Good luck.
£50000 for LHS in a 777?? I dont think they would get get many experienced TR,ed skippers applying for that one hahaha!!....er have things really got that bad!!
But you knew what I meant, i'm sure. Saying that, the future might easily see that sort of salary for a Captain, especially if the airlines think someone paying to sit RHS is a good idea, they'll think and wonder how little they can pay someone to sit in the LHS.
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Afternoon All,
As another day passes my hopes of securing a job becomes stronger. As a wise man said before “you’re a day closer to getting a job”. I do not wish to criticize our seniors who have pointed out some of their thoughts on the above posts. However it would be wrong of anyone may that be our seniors or for that fact anyone else to mock our courage and or determination by advising us that there are jobs at his/her local Mc Donald’s. I would not mind working in Mc Donald’s as at least it would bring food to the table, but unfortunately my local Mc Donald’s does not have any vacancies. Trust me I have checked!!
Another few points that have been raised are the ones such as “why do you not pay for the Ryanair Type rating?” I would firstly like to thank the poster for raising this question and also taking the time and effort to post on this thread. I have nothing against Ryanair, honestly I don’t. However I do not think that by paying in the region of £25,000-£30,000 and still being on contract with Brookfield’s who has laid out poor working conditions for our peers. And then being thrown out for the next batch, also the fact that if you are thrown out, there are not that many 737-800 operators.
My trip to Africa and touring the UK cost £4300; I still stand firm that if a job offer was given in black and white, I would be prepared to pay the cost of the type rating.
Another point that has been raised is that why do I not go and make contacts instead of sitting here and moaning about the doom and gloom. Believe me I’m not the kind of person to sit on my ass and be negative and say “oh where are all the jobs, I deserve one because I have a licence” NO I’m a person that believes that it is our responsibility to make our industry a better place. If could not find a job at home I travelled to Africa to find one. I would also like to thank Redsnail who has highlighted that I have certainly made some contacts and am trying to on a daily basis, however contacts is not the be all and end all, you must do something yourself. My Peers, I like you am a low hour pilot with no job. But we don’t need to be part of an airline or a group to better our industry; all we need is the passion that we started out with on our career path.
I was speaking on the phone to an experienced pilot yesterday who advised me that the operator he works for has over 300-400 pilots working there and that the only reason they shy away from PPRuNe is because of our negative attitudes on here. We need our experienced pilots now more than ever to help guide us through this storm, not to deter them from this website. So instead of sitting and moaning or even just reading posts and not learning from there then I believe it is a waste of mine and your time.
The poster above mentioned doing an instructor rating, and firstly I would like to thank him for his time and efforts for posting on this thread. However the reason I am not prepared to go down the route of instructors is that I have sort advice on this website by some very influential peers of ours who have advised against it, on the grounds that there is a dramatic drop in student numbers in the past year, based on people unable to borrow money from the banks. But again I would like to thank you for sharing your view with us.
To all who are like me, low hours, no job. Please don’t let yourselves down; we must have our hope, courage and strength to see this journey through. And by helping each other on the way we can be supportive of each other instead of knocking each other into the ground trying to prove that one person is better than the other. We are not better than anybody!!
Kash360.
As another day passes my hopes of securing a job becomes stronger. As a wise man said before “you’re a day closer to getting a job”. I do not wish to criticize our seniors who have pointed out some of their thoughts on the above posts. However it would be wrong of anyone may that be our seniors or for that fact anyone else to mock our courage and or determination by advising us that there are jobs at his/her local Mc Donald’s. I would not mind working in Mc Donald’s as at least it would bring food to the table, but unfortunately my local Mc Donald’s does not have any vacancies. Trust me I have checked!!
Another few points that have been raised are the ones such as “why do you not pay for the Ryanair Type rating?” I would firstly like to thank the poster for raising this question and also taking the time and effort to post on this thread. I have nothing against Ryanair, honestly I don’t. However I do not think that by paying in the region of £25,000-£30,000 and still being on contract with Brookfield’s who has laid out poor working conditions for our peers. And then being thrown out for the next batch, also the fact that if you are thrown out, there are not that many 737-800 operators.
My trip to Africa and touring the UK cost £4300; I still stand firm that if a job offer was given in black and white, I would be prepared to pay the cost of the type rating.
Another point that has been raised is that why do I not go and make contacts instead of sitting here and moaning about the doom and gloom. Believe me I’m not the kind of person to sit on my ass and be negative and say “oh where are all the jobs, I deserve one because I have a licence” NO I’m a person that believes that it is our responsibility to make our industry a better place. If could not find a job at home I travelled to Africa to find one. I would also like to thank Redsnail who has highlighted that I have certainly made some contacts and am trying to on a daily basis, however contacts is not the be all and end all, you must do something yourself. My Peers, I like you am a low hour pilot with no job. But we don’t need to be part of an airline or a group to better our industry; all we need is the passion that we started out with on our career path.
I was speaking on the phone to an experienced pilot yesterday who advised me that the operator he works for has over 300-400 pilots working there and that the only reason they shy away from PPRuNe is because of our negative attitudes on here. We need our experienced pilots now more than ever to help guide us through this storm, not to deter them from this website. So instead of sitting and moaning or even just reading posts and not learning from there then I believe it is a waste of mine and your time.
The poster above mentioned doing an instructor rating, and firstly I would like to thank him for his time and efforts for posting on this thread. However the reason I am not prepared to go down the route of instructors is that I have sort advice on this website by some very influential peers of ours who have advised against it, on the grounds that there is a dramatic drop in student numbers in the past year, based on people unable to borrow money from the banks. But again I would like to thank you for sharing your view with us.
To all who are like me, low hours, no job. Please don’t let yourselves down; we must have our hope, courage and strength to see this journey through. And by helping each other on the way we can be supportive of each other instead of knocking each other into the ground trying to prove that one person is better than the other. We are not better than anybody!!
Kash360.
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Hello you all,
Kash, I m like you: no airline job, no money left... And time passes bye.
So I ve looked for jobs in the aviation industry, anything: pilot ( no jobs), check in agent, dispatch, Flight attendant...And there I am doing a F/A airline training with a major low cost european airline, at least, I am doing something, I ll make a bit of money and wait there until airlines start to hire again. So really keep faith! I m sure our time will come, it s just a matter a time...And at least I m still in contact with the aircrafts...: not too bad after all! OF course I would like an airline job...but I m still glad I have a job in the aviation industry during this crisis!
good luck to you all!
AxelFR
Kash, I m like you: no airline job, no money left... And time passes bye.
So I ve looked for jobs in the aviation industry, anything: pilot ( no jobs), check in agent, dispatch, Flight attendant...And there I am doing a F/A airline training with a major low cost european airline, at least, I am doing something, I ll make a bit of money and wait there until airlines start to hire again. So really keep faith! I m sure our time will come, it s just a matter a time...And at least I m still in contact with the aircrafts...: not too bad after all! OF course I would like an airline job...but I m still glad I have a job in the aviation industry during this crisis!
good luck to you all!
AxelFR
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My post was not intended to suggest that an instructors rating was going to bring about a full time job, but given some commitment you would almost certainly be able to gain a day a week somewhere, most flying schools have plenty of trial lessons booked at the weekend. What I was suggesting was a way that you would be able to fly.
The flight instructors rating pays its cost back very quickly if you think about it, assuming you pay say £100 a hour to rent an aircraft in the UK and a flight instructor rating costs around £7000 including 30 hours of flying. So on completion of the rating you only need to do say 40 hours instruction and the rating has cost the same as 70 hours flying, anything after that is a bonus and, as anyone who has ever instructed will tell you, you will be a better pilot, have a whole lot of fun and you will have managed to network a bit more. If you really want to be a pilot, find a way to get flying. You don't have to take my advice you could go to your local flying club and offer your services as a safety pilot or if you want to pay for a TR, then ryanair is about as firm an offer as you are going to get, but things will certainly look a little more positive if you are actually doing what you claim to love so much.
The flight instructors rating pays its cost back very quickly if you think about it, assuming you pay say £100 a hour to rent an aircraft in the UK and a flight instructor rating costs around £7000 including 30 hours of flying. So on completion of the rating you only need to do say 40 hours instruction and the rating has cost the same as 70 hours flying, anything after that is a bonus and, as anyone who has ever instructed will tell you, you will be a better pilot, have a whole lot of fun and you will have managed to network a bit more. If you really want to be a pilot, find a way to get flying. You don't have to take my advice you could go to your local flying club and offer your services as a safety pilot or if you want to pay for a TR, then ryanair is about as firm an offer as you are going to get, but things will certainly look a little more positive if you are actually doing what you claim to love so much.
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Originally Posted by WWW
They've condemned it in The Log.
Ultimately there is only one person/one entity that can stop free men signing a pay-to-fly contract with an airline employer. It isn't BALPA and it isn't other pilots or the Courts. Its Wannabes. They are the ONLY people who have the power to stop pay-to-fly.
But they never ever work collectively and never will. These days the one with the biggest pile of cash wins. And nothing else matters.
Truly sad for the profession but there you are.
WWW
Ultimately there is only one person/one entity that can stop free men signing a pay-to-fly contract with an airline employer. It isn't BALPA and it isn't other pilots or the Courts. Its Wannabes. They are the ONLY people who have the power to stop pay-to-fly.
But they never ever work collectively and never will. These days the one with the biggest pile of cash wins. And nothing else matters.
Truly sad for the profession but there you are.
WWW
The people at the bottom of the food chain have absolutely no ability to change things. The ones who can are the management, senior pilots, BALPA CC's and the suchlike.
Blaming wannabee's for the lack of backbone and the "I'm alright Jack" attitude that pilots have shown over this problem is bonkers.
It's like blaming poor peasants for drought or corruption. They suffer from it, they don't cause it to happen.
People who are just out of training are usually up to their eyeballs in debt and are needing a job to start paying it back, of course they will take every single opportunity to start earning a living. It is human nature to try and get ahead in anyway you can. Dog eat dog.
What should have been done is that the senior pilots should have seen this coming and stopped it at the start, unfortunately they didn't and now the genie is out of the bottle. P2F is atrocious, as is paying for a type rating in the first place, but until there is a massive shortage of pilots, then it won't disappear.
Blaming inexperienced, desperate people for finding themselves in a cr*p situation and then doing anything they can to get out of it is simply wrong. They didn't cause it, but sure as hell are suffering because of it.
There are many people who should hang their heads in shame over this issue, but inexperienced and skint wannabees come low down on that list.
Bollocks.
They're skint and in debt and under pressure because they borrowed so much money to pay for a course they thought would by-pass them the the years of flying instruction, regional turboprop flying and climbing the traditional ladder of experience.
Well boo friggin hoo.
You want senior pilots like me to waltz into the base captains office and tell him I'm not prepared to fly today because I don't like how much money the some new pilot has accepted in salary from the company? My arse wouldn't touch the ground until it got to the staff car park!
For getting on for three years now I've been screaming from the rooftops here that pilot training - particularly expensively funded pilot training - was madness and likely to wreck peoples lives. DO NOT deign to lecture me about the plight of poor Wannabes. Those that have sailed themselves onto the debt rocks of Siren have all ignored my, and countless others, clearest warnings. You reap. You Sow.
If you want to see heads hung in shame then its the marketing depts of major FTOs followed by the idiotic un-enquiring parents of clueless Wannabes who put up the equity. After that start shaming the boys and girls who thought they needn't be flying instructors or piston pilots or turboprop FO's and thought they'd prefer to progress straight to Jet airline pilot.
The music stopped. There weren't enough chairs. You Were All Warned.
Sorry to be brutal but you pee'd me off,
WWW
They're skint and in debt and under pressure because they borrowed so much money to pay for a course they thought would by-pass them the the years of flying instruction, regional turboprop flying and climbing the traditional ladder of experience.
Well boo friggin hoo.
You want senior pilots like me to waltz into the base captains office and tell him I'm not prepared to fly today because I don't like how much money the some new pilot has accepted in salary from the company? My arse wouldn't touch the ground until it got to the staff car park!
For getting on for three years now I've been screaming from the rooftops here that pilot training - particularly expensively funded pilot training - was madness and likely to wreck peoples lives. DO NOT deign to lecture me about the plight of poor Wannabes. Those that have sailed themselves onto the debt rocks of Siren have all ignored my, and countless others, clearest warnings. You reap. You Sow.
If you want to see heads hung in shame then its the marketing depts of major FTOs followed by the idiotic un-enquiring parents of clueless Wannabes who put up the equity. After that start shaming the boys and girls who thought they needn't be flying instructors or piston pilots or turboprop FO's and thought they'd prefer to progress straight to Jet airline pilot.
The music stopped. There weren't enough chairs. You Were All Warned.
Sorry to be brutal but you pee'd me off,
WWW
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WWW, you've just proved my point for me.
You wouldn't stand up for it as you'd get fired. You have the benefit of at least being able to go into the CP's office and have a word about it. What choice does a desperate, skint, inexperienced identikit wannabee F/O have?
How does one of them saying "No, I won't take the job because it goes against my principles" change anything? There are 500 other people who jump in their shoes without blinking and they know it, as does everyone else.
You as a Captain or line trainer don't have the power to fix it on your own, but if you, I and all of the other more senior pilots got together along with the BALPA CC and kicked up a stink, then something is more likely to happen. Nothing guaranteed of course, but did you stick up for your more inexperienced colleagues by actually doing anything? Or do you think that whinging on a website actually makes the blindest bit of difference?
You are trying to defend the indefensible. Wannabees haven't helped themselves, but the rest of us in the industry should be ashamed that we have done **** all aswell. I don't hold myself blameless BTW, we all have had our part to play.
You are mixing up the oversupply problem, with the problem of P2F. Just because there are more frozen ATPL's than jobs doesn't mean that P2F becomes acceptable. It just means that people will be more competitive, that's human nature and to try and rail against that is madness. The only form of control that could have worked would have been for organisations such as BALPA to have been proactive when this started to happen. Not sit in their ivory towers and throw insults at the people who are trying to get into the industry however they can.
I went through the FI, turboprop route and I will never disagree that it is the best way. I dislike the idea of 250hr pilots getting into the RHS of a jet for a variety of reasons, but where are those FI and turboprop jobs at the moment?
An FI is basically an indentured slave and even a turbprop driver earns naff all. If I'd had the opportunity to get into a jet aged 22, then I'd have snapped it up on purely financial reasons and sod anyone else. I worked my backside off to get into this business and I'm not beholden to you or anyone else. My priority is me.
The fact is that the piloting profession is made up of people who are purely interested in their own welfare. That goes for the senior people who have done absolutely nothing other than whinge in the crew room and on here about P2F and for the wanabees who would climb over their Grandmother to get a job. It's only now that senior people are seeing their T's and C's being eroded that they are kicking up a stink. Well, boo-hoo. You had the chance to help yourself, but it wasn't taken and now you have the temerity to blame newbies for this situation...Oh please.
Sometimes I'm embarrassed to call myself a pilot when I think about the self centred attitude of most members of our profession. (Including myself at times.)
P2F isn't going anywhere unless there is a concerted effort from people with some power to stop it. Either employed pilots, BALPA, Government or pax kicking off about it (though few seem to give a t*ss as long as they get a 99p flight to Marbella) might work, but asking a disparate, unconnected group such as deaperate wannabees to take the stand on this is so gob smackingly naive as to defy belief.
You might aswell try to stop a chimp from flinging poo by asking nicely.
We are all to blame for this.
You wouldn't stand up for it as you'd get fired. You have the benefit of at least being able to go into the CP's office and have a word about it. What choice does a desperate, skint, inexperienced identikit wannabee F/O have?
How does one of them saying "No, I won't take the job because it goes against my principles" change anything? There are 500 other people who jump in their shoes without blinking and they know it, as does everyone else.
You as a Captain or line trainer don't have the power to fix it on your own, but if you, I and all of the other more senior pilots got together along with the BALPA CC and kicked up a stink, then something is more likely to happen. Nothing guaranteed of course, but did you stick up for your more inexperienced colleagues by actually doing anything? Or do you think that whinging on a website actually makes the blindest bit of difference?
You are trying to defend the indefensible. Wannabees haven't helped themselves, but the rest of us in the industry should be ashamed that we have done **** all aswell. I don't hold myself blameless BTW, we all have had our part to play.
You are mixing up the oversupply problem, with the problem of P2F. Just because there are more frozen ATPL's than jobs doesn't mean that P2F becomes acceptable. It just means that people will be more competitive, that's human nature and to try and rail against that is madness. The only form of control that could have worked would have been for organisations such as BALPA to have been proactive when this started to happen. Not sit in their ivory towers and throw insults at the people who are trying to get into the industry however they can.
I went through the FI, turboprop route and I will never disagree that it is the best way. I dislike the idea of 250hr pilots getting into the RHS of a jet for a variety of reasons, but where are those FI and turboprop jobs at the moment?
An FI is basically an indentured slave and even a turbprop driver earns naff all. If I'd had the opportunity to get into a jet aged 22, then I'd have snapped it up on purely financial reasons and sod anyone else. I worked my backside off to get into this business and I'm not beholden to you or anyone else. My priority is me.
The fact is that the piloting profession is made up of people who are purely interested in their own welfare. That goes for the senior people who have done absolutely nothing other than whinge in the crew room and on here about P2F and for the wanabees who would climb over their Grandmother to get a job. It's only now that senior people are seeing their T's and C's being eroded that they are kicking up a stink. Well, boo-hoo. You had the chance to help yourself, but it wasn't taken and now you have the temerity to blame newbies for this situation...Oh please.
Sometimes I'm embarrassed to call myself a pilot when I think about the self centred attitude of most members of our profession. (Including myself at times.)
P2F isn't going anywhere unless there is a concerted effort from people with some power to stop it. Either employed pilots, BALPA, Government or pax kicking off about it (though few seem to give a t*ss as long as they get a 99p flight to Marbella) might work, but asking a disparate, unconnected group such as deaperate wannabees to take the stand on this is so gob smackingly naive as to defy belief.
You might aswell try to stop a chimp from flinging poo by asking nicely.
We are all to blame for this.
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I didn't know airlines nominated "senior pilots." How does one qualify for such a position?
Some of the most talented pilots I have flown with have been low houred first-job-medium-jet First Officers. Some of the turboprop First Officers I flew with, including some ex flying instructors, really struggled to perform to a good standard. The oft-perceived smugness of having been a flying instructor placing themselves on a pedastal more often than not led to them lagging behind their colleagues in ability.
So I don't concur with the dismissive attitude to newly qualified pilots getting jobs on jets - good on you if you can get it, it's not a fairytale preserve of only the "deserved experienced few" or those that have flown smaller aeroplanes first.
Kiltie
(career - turboprop/piston, jet, turboprop, turboprop, jet, turboprop, jet...)
Some of the most talented pilots I have flown with have been low houred first-job-medium-jet First Officers. Some of the turboprop First Officers I flew with, including some ex flying instructors, really struggled to perform to a good standard. The oft-perceived smugness of having been a flying instructor placing themselves on a pedastal more often than not led to them lagging behind their colleagues in ability.
So I don't concur with the dismissive attitude to newly qualified pilots getting jobs on jets - good on you if you can get it, it's not a fairytale preserve of only the "deserved experienced few" or those that have flown smaller aeroplanes first.
Kiltie
(career - turboprop/piston, jet, turboprop, turboprop, jet, turboprop, jet...)
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Not every person is the same. Some people can happily move into fast jets and perform fantastically after a couple of hundred hours. Others can't. You get good new F/O's and you get some who you wonder how they actually passed a flight test.
I still maintain that a bit of experience in smaller machines would help anyone though. However, it is moot when you are talking about P2F.
When I say "senior pilots" I mean those who have been in this industry for longer than 5 minutes. They don't have to be TRE's or management pilots.
If all the TRE's had got together, all the TRI's, all the Captains, SFO's and F/O's (who had over 12 months service, to help protect them from being booted easily) had said "hang on a minute, this is a bit off." Then we might not have the problem of P2F.
The only way that would have happened in reality is through an organisation like BALPA.
I'm still incredulous that there hasn't been a proper campaign about this before. If our union (of which I am a member of) won't fight on these issues and drive the membership, then who the hell else is going to do it?
I still maintain that a bit of experience in smaller machines would help anyone though. However, it is moot when you are talking about P2F.
When I say "senior pilots" I mean those who have been in this industry for longer than 5 minutes. They don't have to be TRE's or management pilots.
If all the TRE's had got together, all the TRI's, all the Captains, SFO's and F/O's (who had over 12 months service, to help protect them from being booted easily) had said "hang on a minute, this is a bit off." Then we might not have the problem of P2F.
The only way that would have happened in reality is through an organisation like BALPA.
I'm still incredulous that there hasn't been a proper campaign about this before. If our union (of which I am a member of) won't fight on these issues and drive the membership, then who the hell else is going to do it?
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I am afraid to say that most people look out for themselves and so if something does not affect them directly, even though they may think it is outrageous, not much will get done.
Why would a guy who has a contract with a company and has ok conditions care that some idiot is being exploited, why try to help them in improving their conditions? If it starts trickling upwards and conditions begin to get eroded for those who joined on good t&c's I am sure people will start making some noise.
It is happening everywhere to some extent not just the low cost carriers but almost exclusively to new hires who decide to sign for crap. It is up to the individual to decide to sign or not, I have never paid for any training after the basic stuff almost everyone has too, I never accepted crap conditions although I have signed a contract far inferior to what a lot of the senior guys in the airline I work for are on. It was my choice and it is still a good deal as far as I am concerned and have no right to complain that I get less than others as I get exactly what I agreed too. There are rumors that some conditions may start to get eroded and the contract I signed is no longer being offered but there are 10,000's trying to get in on the new one. No one really cares that these guys get a far reduced contract, yes we think it is a shame but nothing is being done as it does not affect us (yet). If it does start to make the company try to reduce our benefits (mainly housing) I am sure things will escalate and our union will attempt to maintain what we signed up for. I know it seems selfish but this is the reality of it. As long as what people signed up for does not get changed no one will do much about it.
It is supply and demand, that simple. If it picks up again things will change. But it is up to the new guy looking at that contract to change things not us already employed. If demand increases new guys will not sign for crap as there will be something else, only then will this change as people will have options and not sign for thees deals.
I wish it were different and people looked out for one another more and if new contracts were offered at reduced terms the already employed pilots would stand firm and stop it. Unfortunately this is not the way of the world.
Why would a guy who has a contract with a company and has ok conditions care that some idiot is being exploited, why try to help them in improving their conditions? If it starts trickling upwards and conditions begin to get eroded for those who joined on good t&c's I am sure people will start making some noise.
It is happening everywhere to some extent not just the low cost carriers but almost exclusively to new hires who decide to sign for crap. It is up to the individual to decide to sign or not, I have never paid for any training after the basic stuff almost everyone has too, I never accepted crap conditions although I have signed a contract far inferior to what a lot of the senior guys in the airline I work for are on. It was my choice and it is still a good deal as far as I am concerned and have no right to complain that I get less than others as I get exactly what I agreed too. There are rumors that some conditions may start to get eroded and the contract I signed is no longer being offered but there are 10,000's trying to get in on the new one. No one really cares that these guys get a far reduced contract, yes we think it is a shame but nothing is being done as it does not affect us (yet). If it does start to make the company try to reduce our benefits (mainly housing) I am sure things will escalate and our union will attempt to maintain what we signed up for. I know it seems selfish but this is the reality of it. As long as what people signed up for does not get changed no one will do much about it.
It is supply and demand, that simple. If it picks up again things will change. But it is up to the new guy looking at that contract to change things not us already employed. If demand increases new guys will not sign for crap as there will be something else, only then will this change as people will have options and not sign for thees deals.
I wish it were different and people looked out for one another more and if new contracts were offered at reduced terms the already employed pilots would stand firm and stop it. Unfortunately this is not the way of the world.
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Kash
I have a lot of time for you (as I have posted before) but Im not really sure what you want here. The market is rubbish. Hundreds of very experienced pilots are on the dole (im one of them and I know of quite a few more). And I have a type rating and am an experienced instructor. I qualified in 2003 and got my first "airline" job in 2008....5years later!
You are applying for jobs,networking,keeping current and all that good stuff. The only thing left to do now is play the waiting game...just like all the rest of us. You just have to accept that ur timing was wrong and you ended up in the worst recession we have had for a loooooong time. Frustrating it may be but theres
all you can do about it. You wont get a job that doesnt exist!! I have discovered that too recently!
Experienced pilots cant help you because a lot of them are "signing on" too and the lucky ones that arent are just happy that they still gotta job!!
I however am in a slightly better position than you because our Mc Donalds actually is recruiting for part time staff!! (Im being serious)! However, at my age and having no relevant experience,not to mention being more expensive than a 16yr old..my chances, alas are limited even there.
I guess what im trying to say is that there are a lot of us in the same boat and unfortunely, there is no magic solution to getting a job, which i sort of think you are looking for on here.
As i said before to you Kash I wish you good luck. That is something a lot of us need at the moment.
I have a lot of time for you (as I have posted before) but Im not really sure what you want here. The market is rubbish. Hundreds of very experienced pilots are on the dole (im one of them and I know of quite a few more). And I have a type rating and am an experienced instructor. I qualified in 2003 and got my first "airline" job in 2008....5years later!
You are applying for jobs,networking,keeping current and all that good stuff. The only thing left to do now is play the waiting game...just like all the rest of us. You just have to accept that ur timing was wrong and you ended up in the worst recession we have had for a loooooong time. Frustrating it may be but theres
all you can do about it. You wont get a job that doesnt exist!! I have discovered that too recently!Experienced pilots cant help you because a lot of them are "signing on" too and the lucky ones that arent are just happy that they still gotta job!!
I however am in a slightly better position than you because our Mc Donalds actually is recruiting for part time staff!! (Im being serious)! However, at my age and having no relevant experience,not to mention being more expensive than a 16yr old..my chances, alas are limited even there.
I guess what im trying to say is that there are a lot of us in the same boat and unfortunely, there is no magic solution to getting a job, which i sort of think you are looking for on here.
As i said before to you Kash I wish you good luck. That is something a lot of us need at the moment.
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....climbing the traditional ladder of experience.
Regardless, at this point in time:
GA in Europe is minimal
GA employment in Europe where it exists is highly nepotistic
GA employment in Europe requires a totally unrealistic set of minimums from pilots which they ain't never going to get.
GA in the UK is dead and has been for many years
Instruction? not everyone wants to or can teach. And as for turboprops? How many do BA, easyJet, Ryanair, Thomas Cook, Thomson, Monarch et all have? Excluding the few Island Hoppers still in BA's posession, the answer is that out of nearly 500 aircraft, there are no turboprops to be found.
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Afternoon,
A magic solution? God I wish there was one, I really do!! But Alphaadrian I would like to thank you for your honest advice and views, I know you have been a great support and are offering your advice with best intensions and really appreciate it.
I certainly see your point that there is nothing else much left for us to do other than sit and play the waiting game. I have been on this website for many years now, mostly watching and learning from the sidelines and it wasn’t until I started getting involved with my training diaries on pprune. I see that there has been a number of posts regarding helping wannabes, and am delighted that it has shed some light on this matter, like I said before it is best for us all to work together in the same direction, helping people reach their goals or tackling any problems we face as an industry rather than having a more selfish approach. I am not accusing anyone of this, as I have found everyone one on this website helpful and encouraging. However must remember that any problem affecting our industry is our problem.
I opened this thread with best intensions I honestly did, I opened this thread to allow or seniors a platform to provide us with their wealth and knowledge and advice us in the right direction. But the truth is that our seniors are right we have nothing else to do other than wait. If you have got your licences, networked and built contacts, applied to the positions you thought were most suitable, got of your backside and tried to find food to provide for your family then there is nothing else for us to do except wait and stay current.
I myself will carry on until all hope itself fades away from my blood, I will carry on trying but not just in trying to get a job as a pilot but in any field. Some of our seniors have briefly raised the point that we must not hold out for a jet job. Believe me when I say, I and many more would be happy to just fly even a single piston because our passion was not the glamour or the money it was our passion to fly.
Kash360.
A magic solution? God I wish there was one, I really do!! But Alphaadrian I would like to thank you for your honest advice and views, I know you have been a great support and are offering your advice with best intensions and really appreciate it.
I certainly see your point that there is nothing else much left for us to do other than sit and play the waiting game. I have been on this website for many years now, mostly watching and learning from the sidelines and it wasn’t until I started getting involved with my training diaries on pprune. I see that there has been a number of posts regarding helping wannabes, and am delighted that it has shed some light on this matter, like I said before it is best for us all to work together in the same direction, helping people reach their goals or tackling any problems we face as an industry rather than having a more selfish approach. I am not accusing anyone of this, as I have found everyone one on this website helpful and encouraging. However must remember that any problem affecting our industry is our problem.
I opened this thread with best intensions I honestly did, I opened this thread to allow or seniors a platform to provide us with their wealth and knowledge and advice us in the right direction. But the truth is that our seniors are right we have nothing else to do other than wait. If you have got your licences, networked and built contacts, applied to the positions you thought were most suitable, got of your backside and tried to find food to provide for your family then there is nothing else for us to do except wait and stay current.
I myself will carry on until all hope itself fades away from my blood, I will carry on trying but not just in trying to get a job as a pilot but in any field. Some of our seniors have briefly raised the point that we must not hold out for a jet job. Believe me when I say, I and many more would be happy to just fly even a single piston because our passion was not the glamour or the money it was our passion to fly.
Kash360.
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I have nothing against Ryanair, honestly I don’t. However I do not think that by paying in the region of £25,000-£30,000 and still being on contract with Brookfield’s who has laid out poor working conditions for our peers. And then being thrown out for the next batch, also the fact that if you are thrown out, there are not that many 737-800 operators.
Can you substantiate these claims? Who/how many have been thrown out? Do you know any of them, would you care to invite them to tell us their story?
No?....then this is rumour mongering.
I and many more would be happy to just fly even a single piston because our passion was not the glamour or the money it was our passion to fly.
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Hernando
That was uncalled for. Between you, me and the gatepost at the front of my driveway, every sod out there are well aware of the fascinating little stories that bound about regarding Ryanair and it's pilots. There is no point in getting your back up about these; just get on with your life. Some truth does lie between what Kash has to say though. The money the cadet fronts for the Ryanair SSTR is first and foremost just another revenue generator for the airline. Secondly, the BRK contract is just another way for Ryanair to save on money and remain as flexible as possible with it's workforce. I have still to be disposed off in place of a newbee though and have never found myself in a position of 'layoff' because of a new stream of cadets. However i know we hold an excess of FOs because my 750hrs last year would have equated to 900hours 3-4 years ago. Colleagues at other bases are worse off, with some guys on as low as 600 hours per year. It will only drop and may get a great deal worse when the orders from Boeing dry up and the expansion grinds to a halt. That's only if continued recruitment occurs with low rates of attrition.
Until then the only thing that is laying me off is that bloody great big Volcano.
That's something worth getting worried about 
Good luck flying a single piston.
Until then the only thing that is laying me off is that bloody great big Volcano.
That's something worth getting worried about
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 20th Apr 2010 at 11:24.