Calling all experienced pilots...we need help!!
 

Like many of you in this forum looking for that first lucrative job let me extend my hand of friendship as like you I am in the same boat which has no destination. As you maybe aware that there is now small but never the less green shoots in a few places across the world. I find myself in hope as ever, but what does blow a hard and heavy blow to my hopes is the amount of people joining these pay to fly schemes. This leading to experienced pilots being turned away because they have too much experience which could only mean that the airlines have taken a liking to pilots who are lining the pockets of these airlines by paying for type ratings and line trainings. I too want a job flying but not at the expense of hurting people in the process, and I find that is what many of us are doing. I don’t care if it’s CAE or Eaglejet or anyone else they are all the same. I have been a loyal member of this website for a few years and have always said that it was this website that helped me during my training and I wish to repay it back by helping some of you.

The truth of the matter is I have nothing. Nothing at all that I could help you with other than my opinions and support. I have travelled at far lengths to try and break into the market. I even thought that by myself having years of experience within aviation from loading bags on to planes to being an operations supervisor for an airline would help. I even thought that becoming an engineer may help. I then did my licence and thought well this must help me prosper. But none of the above have and for this reason I thought that opening this thread would be a good idea for us too all put our minds together and think what we are doing wrong. Surely there are no rules to this thing; some get employed via CV’s and some by picketing outside airline offices.

I until now have sent 1300 C.V’s , followed them up with phone calls, travelled the length of the UK stopping at every airport, took a flight to Africa and pitched my tent for 2 months, returning to the UK to resend my 1300 C.V’s and travelled the length of the UK to see if things have progressed.

This thread is not only for the benefit of myself but is also for you. I would openly like to invite our seniors/experienced pilots to share with us what else we could do to bear fruit.

So the question for this thread to our experienced pilots is what are we to do with our licences?
I am sure this has been covered a number of times but what I would like to do is draw new light on this matter from a new angle.

Kash360

Kash,

I've posted this elsewhere but here goes...heres a classic example of why me fighting for the pilot cause by avoiding P2F is killing my own employment chances which I have been chasing now for two years since completing my fATPL training.

Last year I had the choice between an A320 type rating with a popular and respected TRTO or the ATP P2F A320 TR + 150 line hours scheme. I went for the bare A320 TR with a TRTO who have an excellent record holding on to my morals and thinking their airline links would get me somewhere.

At this point in time, the TRTO have no relationship with any airline for newly type rated folk. My emails get ignored and when I speak to the guy who sold me the course its like "what do you want me to do?" (fair enough). So look where my morals have got me? I know of many who went through one of these courses and have now received paid flying contracts some even are in perm positions taking home £4k per month.

Let's face it, pilots being human beings are just as capable of being selfish bastards, jumping the gun in order to further their own. It's the world we live in now.

So tell me, what should someone like me do?

Superpilot - I am sorry for you, and Kash for that matter.

Buy to other out there, take heed of superpilots experience. NEVER buy a type rating without a firm job offer, and by firm rock solid, set in steel re-enforced concrete.

A TR without lots of experience is worthless, airlines will still probably put you through their own TR, and line training etc.

I'm in the same position. I'm lucky to have a flight instructor job, and it keeps me current, but I get like 150 hours a year and it will take me 8 years to hit the current required experience of the airlines (not the money requirement, luckily some still require experience). I have a job outside aviation, and I am happy with that.

I consider paying for a TR with no contract signed for an airline just as "pay-to-fly" as paying for a TR+line training. I mean, what is the difference? You are not getting paid to fly, and it is wrong. I stretched it far enough by paying for the FI-course myself, which after 1,5 years of instructing I have received about half the cost back. And that is one of the cheapest "pay-to-fly" schemes you can enter.

My plan is to live my life as it is right now, and don't worry about the future. I'll keep those licences current (cheap since I don't have a TR), and wait for the time where my graph of increasing flight time hits the graph of required total time of the airlines. If this happens by reduced requirement because of increased pilot demand or me hitting the current requirement, only time can tell :)

The airlines can afford to pay pilots what they deserve, we are just not giving them the opportunity to do so. First step must surely be to refuse pay-to-fly schemes?

You are doing nothing wrong Kash, its just a dire market out there at the moment, dont beat yourself up about it, there are many in the same position inc myself.

With your Ops experiance have you explored ops jobs? foot in the door and back in aviation were you can keep your ear to the ground.

Guys,

To be fair, folks were walking into A320 jobs with just the bare rating only a few months before I started. Cockpit4u have had an excellent relationship with a few German and Far Eastern airlines, and Storm Aviation (TRTO now closed) had a similar relationship with other airlines. Things are dead now understandibly.

The other thing is no UK airline at this point in time or indeed in the last 3 or 4 years will give you a job without a type rating - Just try it and tell me otherwise. I'm afraid for the vast majority of us, a CPL/ME/IR is absolutely worthless unless you have connections or are extremely lucky. The whole system is in breakdown. The traditional method of recruitment whereby airlines invite new pilots to apply for positions, put them through a fair assessment and hire them accordingly just doesn't exist anymore.

Airlines have no reason to be interested in pilots who they cant get onto the line within a week or two and save £20k. Reality is, any employer would juice the cost of the TR through reduced salary and/or bonding any way. From this point of view I stand by my decision to do the rating.

I've said it before and I'll gladly say it again. Our senior pilots (those with bargaining power through BALPA) have outright failed to protect the job of the pilot. Now the **** is creeping upwards and affecting their own positions directly, they are beginning to realise where they have failed. It's just too late.

Kash,

I am sorry to hear about your troubles. Wow, 1,500 CV's - that's A LOT! :eek:

While I know a few people, who I have met over the years at various stages of my training and who have secured employment as pilot, I know a whole lot of people who have not. Some of them have actually left the industry and even given up. One pilot I spoke to during my training said, "only those, who give up, will fail." Well said.

As I repeatedly said so before here, dishing out CV's randomly, or doing a SSTR, will most likely get you the job ... not. A very few might get lucky, the huge majority will not. Particularly, if you do not have a lot of experience. Being at the right place at the right time might get you the job. Personally, I think all that's a load of crap. I rather prefer taking the bull by its horns and get myself out there instead of sitting at home all day waiting for a phone call or email. What will get you a job is being pro-active and showing a lot of self-initiative. Be there in person! Aviation is a strange industry. You are being watched veeery closely all the time. And judged. By what you say and what you do. Be an alright fella who people like having around and know your stuff a little. From little what I know I can tell you so much, you will be alright.

I have said it here before and I am saying it again, if you do not know someone in the insight be your own boss and kick off at the bottom of the latter, e.g. join a gliding club, maybe a flying club, hang around airfields, find yourself a nonflying job at the airport. Work in the industry. Stay in the industry. Rampie will do, refueler, you name it. It's common practice in Canada, for example, to start off as a loader before you get a sniff at flying the damn thing you load every day! I would not recommend doing a FI rating these days because you would need a student to pay for your services...

In late summer 2008, I finished my training and have had nine interviews with GA outfits and airlines respectively. I got those interviews either by word to mouth or by constantly checking on respective websites and before sending out my CV by calling their chief pilot and making my name and voice known (verbal communication plays a huge role in determining sympathy or antipathy). Some of my applications went successful, some not. It's a numbers game but do increase your chances to win. Since I came out of flight school I have sent out about 35 CV's. I started off flying a 172 for peanuts. Admittedly, I got lucky as I knew a guy who had flown for the outfit I began flying with back then. But I know some of my friends would not even look at it, as it is not a jet job and therefore, in their eyes, not an opportunity... True. As sad as it is.

I refuse to believe that there's no jobs out there. There is. Just look harder and wiser.

Best of luck!!!

Some very good advice there Stefair:ok:

It's all about luck and timing and you've had neither so far. Your problem is not so much P2F, as it is the fact that you're in the UK which is probably the country on earth worst affected by this economic recession thing at the moment. You could send a million CVs and get the same result because there are simply no jobs going right now except for a few P2F shaftings - and those aren't even real jobs they're just tools that some lo-cos are using at the moment to try to get the rest of the workforce to accept lower T&Cs. They'll be the first ones to park airplanes when the economic recovery comes though :mad:

Good times will roll round again for aviation employment, but not for a looong time, most forward thinking employers are looking at the 3 to 4 year time frame before they need to hire again. Virgin Atlantic and Thomson when they had to make redundancies last year, have sent about 100 of their pilots on 3-year fixed term contracts to Qatar Airways rather than sack them outright - they still have retained their seniority with their UK employers. Netjets Europe did a similar thing, they put several hundred of their pilots on a 4-year part time contract working year on year off. Of course that means all these furloughed guys will be returning to the work force before you existing batch of wannabes get a look in.

And of course just looking at the chaos at BA this week I think that there will be no jobs there for a veeery long time :(

So yeah mate I hate to say it but you are basically screwed for the foreseeable, I don't know what happened for you in Maun but you might have to head back there next summer and the summer after that before anything positive happens at home.

All I can suggest is STAY CURRENT on something - anything - even if it's piston singles and a quick whirl in a king air sim every few months - and keep thinking outside the box, you're obviously prepared to travel the world and take anything you can get so I'm quite confident you'll suddenly get your lucky break.

And remember ... it's always darkest just before the dawn :ok:

Afternoon all,
Firstly allow me to thank you all for participating on this thread. I do strongly believe that experience teaches allot, hence me asking all experienced pilots to share their views on this thread. Secondly I could not agree more that we as a whole must shy away from these pay to fly or SSTR schemes. However much we would like to fly it should not be at the cost of destroying future generations.

I do to a certain degree comprehend and agree on the view that within the UK it would be very unlikely to secure a position without paying for a type rating. However I believe that this must be done in the form of a bond, and not in the hope of securing a job once you have gained your type rating.

As many of you may be aware I have recently returned back to the UK after spending 2 months in Maun and Zambia, my accounts of my trip were shared on this website. The concept of my thread was to show newly qualified pilot as myself the darkness that prevails after one has attained his/her licence. I am certainly not one of those guys who will sit at home waiting for food to fall on his plate, but have demonstrated that it is necessary to go out and find your own food wherever that may be in the world.

I have tried and will carry on trying to try and find the Holy Grail, but at what cost? I have applied to over 400 engineering positions, called every contact in my phone book just to try and get some work. Even after holding a degree in aeronautical engineering and having a licence I do not find myself to be above anyone. I would happily go back to the airport and load bags onto the aircrafts, but even this idea does not seem to shine through.

Hope is certainly one of the best things we have in life, but this quality should not be used to delude ourselves. I will never agree to pay to fly neither would I ever agree to pay for a type rating unless a secure job was offered. I completely agree that the current times we live in are dire, and that they will get better soon. However something’s within our industry do make me feel that we are at the mercy of airlines. For example the likes of Emirates travelling around the world to find cadets when they are fully aware that the world is full of ready to go pilots.

I am not asking for a shinny jet job I’m not asking to fly 747’s or 380’s I’m just asking to FLY but not at any longer at my expense. In today’s climate and please correct me if I am wrong. I find that we have opened Pandora ’s Box only to hit us in the face, for example we opened the doors to Europe and said any job for anyone. But the European airlines are clever and so they should be. They specify that there pilots must speak a number of languages to get a chance with them. Now let’s be honest how many languages do we really know in the UK, not many I suppose.

Anyway I would much appreciate our experience pilots to guide and steer us all in a direction that maybe profitable to us all.

Kash360

There is not much that can be said. You apply for jobs, try to get a foot in the door, try to make contacts and lastly make yourself more attractive to an employer. Other than that there is nothing else. You can be very committed to each of these things such as sending out thousands of CV's, applying for any jobs with operators not just as a pilot, travel the world to meet people in the companies, getting more ratings and experience. You are doing almost all of this.

Some people try to make themselves more attractive by paying for a TR and some take it further and pay for line training. I do not agree with that even a little bit but it does make people more attractive to some companies, that is a fact and those people will be more likely to find employment than you. That is the problem, most people are selfish and if they can they will try to jump the queue, there is nothing that can be done other than legislation making these schemes unlawful. It will not stop otherwise as there will always be someone willing to pay to sit in a jet as there are a lot of stupid people in the world who take a short cut that will ultimately reduce their future career earnings.

It is all about being in the right place at the right time or having your CV land on the right desk at the right time. I think you have been finding the right places but it is just the wrong time and probably will continue to be the wrong time for a while.

I have just been on to the Balpa website to see what campaigns they are currently involved in. Interestingly enough P2F isn't there. They are also boasting that their membership is up to over 9000.

Well if Balpa are listening, there are probably 2000 more members waiting to join your ranks if you tackle this one. The next generation need your support now. Many of us may never need you again. Take it on, advertise the cause and I'm sure new members will swell your ranks to cover the costs. I believe it is the single most important issue facing pilots right now. I'm not interested in a post-mortem of XL airways, I don't care that I have to take my shoes off in the airport and I'm really not bothered that Paddy Power were taking bets on which airline will go bust next!:rolleyes:

And there's your problem. Why on earth should an organization, funded by it's member, care to take on someone else's battle? You have to join ranks first, and then recieve help. It's not the other way around. :ugh:

Naive springs to mind.

There really isn't much more you can do. Sounds like you're trying all avenues. I admire the travelling to Africa to try for a job. Make sure when you do get an interview that you mention that. The fact you tried those lengths will be well looked upon. I was impressed when I read it anyway.

It's an arid desert as far as job recruitment goes at least for first jobs. Make no mistake there are experienced guys who right now would love to know where to turn. Don't beat yourself up that you can't find water in a desert. My advice would be to concentrate on keeping money coming in to keep your licences and ratings alive and accept your job hunt may only develop legs once things start to move.

Please stop it because you are breaking my heart. As admirable as it was reading about your quest for a job on the African continent, this self pitying is just unnecessary and cringeworthy. Instead of signing on and putting even more pressure on the welfare state, why don't you do something really pro active and get a job? Appealing to professional pilots to sort your life out aint gonna work as most of us have far more pressing things to think about such as keeping our jobs, paying union subs and keeping the family warm and fed. Get used to the fact that there are jack all jobs for inexperienced wannabes unless they have got 30k up their sleeve to waste on an expensive theme park ride. Which as we all know is the real problem here. What are you going to put on your next job application? Sat on arse feeling feeling sorry for myself since completing training looks rather naff i'd say? I think they would be far more impressed if you served a bit of time out there working, think about it.

Bit harsh there i think shaun.....after all, i suspect although Kash has just signed on this may be more a short term thing while he can assess his next move maybe in the employment arena ?? i don't know of course but would rather give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.......and after all, with regard to the P2F rot, well that was set in stone long before Kash came along - he now, like many others has to deal with the consequences of the situation, and given his stated desire not to go down that route then i think that is commendable on its own.

As for advice, would love to advise you Kash but i'm not the best to give advice i'm afraid given that i'm a relative newbie to the industry myself (10 years in one form or another) - maybe securing an ops. job, cabin crew, dispatch and networking here for a few years to see if it bears any fruit ?? worked for me but to be fair times were certainly more buoyant a few years ago ! and of course they will be again, just a case of playing the waiting game. There does seem to be the first shoots out in the market regarding recruitment albeit for more experienced guys, have friends that are considering moves and am being told of opportunities that exist, whilst not much help to the new kid on the block, this usually means movement elsewhere and will hopefully lead to a return to recruitment at the lower end of the food chain, again i suspect that is some time off though.

Sorry i can't be much more help !

F/O

Shaun I’m sorry mate, but that’s just harsh, how can comment on being pro active? Kash bloody got of his backside and went out to Maun in search of a job, now that’s commitment, just out of curiosity did you (or would you) go out to Africa in search of a job, put your hand on your heart and be truthful,
He is using his brain, using this site to “network” getting as much help from old experienced pilots as possible, me personally think’s its fantastic what he is doing,
Keep up the hard work Kash it WILL pay off
Anyways
Hope your all having a lovely holiday,
Flyvirgin,

Lukeskytoddler summed it up in the last paragraph. Keep current on anything just to keep yer licenses at least ticking over. UK very poorley hit thats why my location is OEJN and not EGCC.I wish you all the very best, I wish these flying schools integrated ; modular or whatever fancy wrapping you want to call it would not always keep ranting about get your license get a A320 rating or whatever it is and your like 20 years old then you have 45 years on metal and no variation in the career other than flying in JAA land, play with your lives a bit go travelling, work in restaurant work go on a cruise ship play in a band come back to the flying in year or so ..ah well whado I know anyway!