Knowing what you know now about this game, wud you have done it all in the 1st plce?

[Grass strip basher]

I've got halfway through my training all exams done and even paid for CPL... but have now binned it... why?? My old man did 35 years with BA and said he enjoyed the first 10-15 years and hated the last 10-15 years... he said he was bored sh8tless and he was on the old defined benefit mega bucks contracts (ex-hamble cadet).... I'll wait till I have 10-15 years left and aim for a regional turbo prop or the like.

For me it would involve chucking in a job where I can earn more in a month that most FO do in a year (yes in the city... although shortly to be the desert heat of the middle east... no tax... nice). My plan is do the day job till I'm mid-forties with a pension tucked away, have seen my kids get to a sensible age and mortgage paid off. Then with 25 years of GA flying under my belt at weekends (who knows I may even instruct in my spare time) I may have a bash at a regional turbo-prop job or biz jets... c10 years doing that before hanging up boots sounds like fun. That way I avoid money pressures, no debt, get to actually 'fly" aeroplanes for most of my life etc etc.

Oh and sat where I am sat I agree with WWW and believe with oil above $100 most airlines will be posting losses this year.... the industry looks screwed to me for at least a couple of years... what would be the point in carrying on and doing the ME/IR??

Do I wish I hadn't done the ATPL exams before I made my decision not to continue?.... hmmm not really because I love flying and it will improve my airmanship albeit hopefully in a YAK rather than an A320. Maths etc didn't stack up for me and I am in the fortunate position where I could blow £100k on it if I wanted to.... but I fully understand the desire young people have to chase the dream.... unfortunately when you pass the ripe old age of 30 I have found that reality rather than dreams have to start driving your decision making.

Some good advice on here though... I would wager that a large number of people who voted "it is great" are NOT professional pilots but actually still in training chasing the dream....

P.S. I paid for a CPL course that I am unlikely to use at a very good training school due to my relocation to the sandpit... if anyone wants to buy it at a BIG discount I can talk to the school and see if we can transfer it (that is a serious offer).

[Artie Fufkin]

Clearly mine is a minority view on this forum, but I think it was worth it.

From speaking with all the captians at work, half moan like hell. They say that they could be earning more, with better conditions, in more enjoyable jobs in other professions. The other half say that flying is the best job in the world.

I always find it very revealing that the guys who think the grass is greener elsewhere are generally the guys who came into aviation straight from school or uni. Those who had previous careers know just how cushy things are (at the airline I work for anyway!).

I used to work in the City and I dread loosing my medical and having to go back. Airline work is far more interesting, far less stressful and the hours are a fraction of City hours. Maybe I need a few more years experience to loose the rose tint on my "Aviators" but I know plenty of captains who still look visibly excited about coming to work, spend the entire way down to Spain talking affectionatley about their 35 year career and end the flight by begging ATC for a visual approach.

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

A low workload can be just as stressful as a high workload. Being on standby can be stressful, as can hanging around airports all day, every day waiting for pax.

[redsnail]

Superpilot, I reckon you're a troll but I'll bite.

Compare my working life to that of most pilots and there’s no comparison. I am not the only one, there are thousands of others like me and they work just as hard. Harder than most pilots for sure.

Gee, who's holding a gun to your head? Pity? You've come to the wrong site. You'd need to go to the PITSRN. (Professional IT Slave Rumour Network).
As for how hard pilots work? It does depend on the job and at what stage of the career you're at.

I'm out of the house/hotel room on average 14 hours a day. I consider all that time being at work. 14 x 5 = 70 hours a week devoted to my company with no overtime paid. Granted the daily rate is good (though not good enough for the level of work I put in) and this is the only reason why I am doing it.

Diddums. Most pilots are too. No over time either. No public holidays. No weekend rates too.

I have to physically achieve what in most other companies takes 3 people to achieve and in half the time! My work is of a highly technical nature and requires me to be completely ‘on-the-ball’ with absolutely no scope for failure.

What do you want? A medal? A chest to pin it on? Go to the PITSRN (see above) for the back slaps. No scope for failure? How do you think we feel when something fails on our aircraft? Hmm? Thrilled? Knowing that failure will result in any one of the following:- death, suspension, injury, damage. Posting on PPRuNe and armchair/Monday morning pilots/wannabees ripping apart our move? What happens to you if you fail? Oh. No job. Gee, that must hurt.

I can say pilots have it relatively easy (provided they don’t commute silly distances) because I know a couple of Loco pilots who only work 5 days before they have a 3 or 4 day break. They are only ever out of their homes for 11 hours max; they don’t have to worry about the day ahead; they don’t bring their work home with them. And these two points are what matters. Stress is not a 20 minute turnaround. Stress is not a 15 minute walk from your car to your plane in the cold. Neither is stress a 30Kt X-wind.

Gee, you know some pilots. Wow. Can I shake your hand? I know some IT workers who only work 4 days, one of them from home and then they have 3 days off. Jealous? No.
Don't bring the work home hey? Well, I and others study for our checks. Need to keep on top of the technical changes and SOP changes that occur. etc. Don't worry about the day ahead? Don't make me laugh. What about fuel planning? What about alternates? What about permits and visas? What about the condition of the aeroplane? 11 hour day? Suggest you review the Flight Time limitations and see what really happens.
You're right, the 30kt x-wind isn't stressful. It's fun. How about you join me doing one in Reykjavic at midnight at the end of a 12 hour day with blowing snow and hail and then you can put the covers on.

unsociable hours to get to where I need to be

And if you're catching a flight, how do you think the aeroplane gets going that early? Yesss, the crew are there even earlier.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Can't believe pilots think their jobs are stressful. Would love to know in what way.

If I’m at home, the day literally begins at 0230 when little one wakes up for his first feed. I wake up again anytime between 0500 and 0600 to cries of hunger. On average I'm out of bed by 0600. I would've had about 6.5 hours sleep with two interruptions of 15-20 mins.

Golly gee you're right mate, you deserve a medal there, clearly none of us working pilots have newborn babies or get up in the night to feed them

For work I do a lot of travelling. A mixture of driving and flying. I fly to Europe on average twice a week and back, albeit as a passenger. I travel at unsociable hours to get to where I need to be. Far from being exciting, travelling for work is now all about a.) refuelling the car, b.) sitting in the 3/4 lane car park that is the M25, c.) waiting in huge queues to have my bags checked/passport control and d.) indigestion (fast food on the move). It's not enjoyable at all and I'd rather be upfront flying

Of course, real pilots never have to engage in the commuting / travelling grind. We never work at unsociable hours, or have to leave home two hours before reporting time so we can sit in traffic on the M25 with the rest of the plebs. We just wave a magic wand when we want to leave home and hey presto there we are preflighting the aircraft.

I work with twits who are not only incapabable of achieving the technical task for which they are supposedly qualified but who lack common sense and intelligence. I deal with people who don’t understand me and me likewise due to language barriers; people who don’t like me (because I’m a contractor on more money and my doings will eventually result in their redundancies!); uncooperative and sometimes downright obstructive people too.

One word for you mate. SERVISAIR

My work is of a highly technical nature and requires me to be completely ‘on-the-ball’ with absolutely no scope for failure. Often I’m not allowed to make changes during the day, so must stay behind and work till midnight. I must keep everyone happy whilst adhering to standards. I eat lunch faster than a biblical sized swarm of locusts can attack a field of corn. I’m asked to produce more documentation than is humanely possible.

Think about what you've just posted there. Then, think about how you imagine a pilot's job is any different. Then please do enlighten us.

I'm out of the house/hotel room on average 14 hours a day. I consider all that time being at work. 14 x 5 = 70 hours a week devoted to my company with no overtime paid.

Very similar to my lifestyle when I worked at my large European low cost airline then. Nowadays with the longhaul it's different, I spend 4 or 5 days at a time away from the family, get home for one or two, occasionally even three days off / standby, and then away again for the rest of the week. Of course, according to your theory, spending a couple days staring at the wall in some bland fleapit of a hotel in dhaka or lagos for the 28th time this year, trying to get your body clock adjusted before the bus arrives to pick the crew up at 0200 for your 11 hour flight home, doesn't count as working does it.

Compare my working life to that of most pilots and there’s no comparison. I am not the only one, there are thousands of others like me and they work just as hard. Harder than most pilots for sure.

I can say pilots have it relatively easy ... because I know a couple of pilots (my italics)

Superpilot my friend, you have made some intelligent and thought provoking posts on this website in the past ... but that was definitely not one of them.

[Luke SkyToddler]

hahahaha, looks like redsnail beat me to it again. And every word of it true. Nice one girl

Superpilot you REALLY put foot in mouth with that one sunshine. Next time engage brain before pressing submit button on Professional Pilots website

[timzsta]

Would I do it again? I am not sure. I got my CPL/IR nearly four years ago. If I did do it again I would probably have gone into it younger and not waited until I was 25 until I made a start.

I wasted a year after getting my IR applying for jobs, which realistically I had no chance of getting as I only had 200 hours and the market was not great.

But I have tried to do something about it and did an FI course and started part time instructing. For about 18 months I didn't really make an effort to get a job - I just concentrated on getting as much experience as I could and developing myself into a competent FI. I went part time in my other job after christmas so i could do more flying. But with the credit crunch now on I fear a big drop in instructional work is about to hit me.

Any hours are better then no hours I reckon. If you are sitting on a CPL/IR and no job get an FI ticket and get flying. You will make more command decisions as a part time FI over two weekends flying then most jet FO's will make in a year (standing by.....).

As you grow older enthusiam and energy do decline, and as you look at the world through more mature eyes you feel "what have I got to grumble about? I have my health and I can pay my mortgage (at the moment). Flying an airliner is just a job".

But I am also in the position where I have to work 7 days a week to pay the mortgage and there are days when I feel "i can't be bothered with spending another afternoon in a knackered old 152 teaching stalling for the umpteenth time. What I actually want to do is put my feet up".

So that really has re-invigourated me to seek that airline job. At least there will be days off. The T's & C's are never going to be what they used to be but at least there will be days off.

[Grass strip basher]

Blimey I didn't realise snails had teeth that sharp!

[redsnail]

G'day Luke

SuperIT,
Cheap thrills? No.
I still don't get why you're trying to big up yourself? Yesterdays work? No, I've never had to write crew reports/ASR/MORs the day after. No, never.. Never had to explain what happened to management. No.. not ever once..

About this time thing. If you don't get whatever you do done, then what? Hmm? Can I put off the landing until tomorrow just because I am too busy dealing with something? What could I be dealing with? ooh let's see. Trying to negotiate a permit to land via the Sat phone. I don't have the luxury of time either. I have to get it done now. Tomorrow's too late.

You might well think I have a poor understanding of what an IT person does. You're probably right. However, I don't go to the PITSRN (see above) site and bang on about what a legend I am because I can manage stress. BTW, this is my second career too so I do know what the so called real world's like.

[ChocksAwayUK]

Superpilot is not trying to 'big himself up', or 'bang on about what a legend' he is. He was just illustrating the very valid point that most other reasonably paid jobs are more stressful and demand a lot more time at work that that of an airline pilot.

As a full-time low-cost airline pilot I'm amazed at how little time I spend at work. When I read posts of pilots complaining about the amount of work they do and the stress I can only imagine they haven't had a proper job in their life.

And redsnail, usually the PAX arrive at the airport about an hour before the crew for a specific flight - at least in airline operations. And you can't compare having to keep up with manual changes, notices to crew, write ASRs etc with the amount of real work that most jobs carry into their home life.

Back on topic. I've only been doing the job for just over a year and I'm sure there's every possibility that my outlook will change. At the moment, however, I love it and can't believe how lucky I am. I have a ridiculous amount of days (and afternoons) off. The flight time limitations just don;t allow to do as mush work as other jobs. I get excited about going to work. Sometimes as I get up at 3.30AM I feel like a kid on Xmas morning (seriously!). Despite the current climate I'm optimistic about the future, different fleets, routes and one day becoming a Captain (admittedly stress levels may rise then). When I'm not doing the fun bits of the job (take off and approach) I'm getting paid for drinking coffee, admiring the view and doing the crosswords (yes, and monitoring systems blah blah).

The vast majority of the old buggers I fly with love it. To quote one recently "Nothing gives me a bigger hard-on than going to work" and another "It's a job like no other really - wouldn't change it for the world." Not to mention all the retired BA Captains on huge pensions that have joined my airline, not always for the reason that they have several ex-wives to support! My father did 35 years at BA and loved it till the end (admittedly things have changed since then).

The money is pretty good, especially considering the time spent at work. Personally I wouldn't go back to a City/IT job if it paid 10 times as much.

Of course there are some negative sides to the job - I won't dwell on those too much as they're already covered in this thread and to be honest they're not a big issue to me.

I'm not saying for a moment that the more negative posts in this thread should be ignored. Indeed they are very valid points written by intelligent people with real advice and insight to give and should be heeded. I'm not denying their accuracy at all. I just think it would be a real shame if people who really would be suited to the job jacked it in because of the skewed (in my opinion) slant of this thread.

[corsair]

Chocksaway, who do you work for? My CV is ready and waiting, you lucky so and so. Clearly not Ryanair I am not being facetious by the way. It should be evident to you that you are in fact lucky compared to many. Hang onto that job. It does prove there a few airline jobs out there that are straightforward.

I think you will get some flak for this though:

When I read posts of pilots complaining about the amount of work they do and the stress I can only imagine they haven't had a proper job in their life.

I'd get a tin hat, if I were you. Superpilot might lend you one.

Superpilot thinks being a pilot isn't actually actually that stressful at all particularly compared to his job. Which is of course why he wants to be a pilot. He will find out eventually one way or another unless his massive ego gets in the way.

I thnk what we have established is that a pilot's job can be as stressful as many jobs. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you get the good jobs like Chocksaway.

For all his smugness in describing his stressful day, superpilot missed one point. He obviously wants out of it. Because, guess what? It is very stressful! Yet he refuses to believe that being a pilot could be stressful. I think we all know otherwise.

But if you want upmanship, I could describe my last non flying job. I can outstress nearly anyone on that one. It was long hours, low pay, pressurised, physically exhausting and zero status and I was kept awake by the baby.

But this isn't the place to discuss that. What we are supposed to be discussing is whether or not the profession we are either embarking on or have been part of is in fact a bed of rose petals or just rose thorns or both.

I really could care less how bad it is in IT or international sales or on the front line in Afghanistan. Those topics belong in Jetblast. Thank you.

[usedtofly]

So then, as happens on pprune this thread has started to move in a different direction.

I just want to say this......

I LOVE my job.....I fly small TP .......all glass.....good mix of IFR/VFR

I have NO complaints whatsoever, the pay is good and the company is good.

When 'the phone rings' and I have to go to work, I just think 'how lucky am I ?'

It was not an easy road to get where I am but now I am here I would not swap for anything.

UTF

[fade to grey]

Oh here we go again...
Super pilot:in terms of stress the reality is the captain is in charge of a multi million pound piece of machinery but more relevant is the fact that he/she is directly accountable for HUNDREDS OF LIVES everyday, this from time to time generates a little stress.

Maybe you don't make your sales targets as a cherryade sales executive or whatever the hell it is you do (I don't care) but it doesn't really matter and I bet you get weekends off.

Anyway you obviously want to join us in our stress free eutopia or you would n't be on here.If you ever make it the reality will hit you like a freight train.

grass strip basher - fantastic plan, wish i had thought of that 16 years ago....

[G SXTY]

Three stressful careers, and the consequences of failure:

(a) City financier / trader / project manager etc. Make a mistake, it costs your company money - perhaps serious money. You might well lose your job over it, other people might lose theirs in the fallout. I've seen it happen.

(b) Doctor / surgeon. Make a mistake, the patient on the operating table could die.

(c) Airline pilot. Make a mistake and you, your aircrew colleagues, your hundreds of passengers and any number of people on the ground could die.

Most occupations these days are stressful. That's modern life for you. What separates this one from (a) and (b) is that the consequences of mistakes are several orders of magnitude higher than any other career I can think of. Which gives one pause for thought on a dark horrible night.

Having worked in two of the above professions, I know which one I prefer. But don't anyone think that this job is all pushing buttons and impressing the hosties. It has stresses and strains which simply do not compare with any other job.

[No Country Members]

As this is drifting anyway, can I ask a slightly modified question? I had coffee recently with a chap I trained with a few years ago, and he told me that he is now so cynical due to similar experience to the thread starter, that even though he now works as a pilot, it is now only all about the money. He is looking for a new job now based mainly on how much someone is prepared to pay. Frankly I don't blame him, he has huge debts to repay when considering the total cost of training and being out of a career for many years. In this respect he is like many others.

Clearly there are plenty here who admit to having an easier transition into the world of flying work, and would probably answer "no".

To get to the point, hands up who think "yes"? I think I do.

[Mikehotel152]

One of the biggest stresses I had in my previous career was generated by my lack of enjoyment of what I was doing. It sounds trivial, I know, but it is cumulative and it drives you to the ground. It changes your personality. It gradually ruins your life.

Within weeks of giving up that career and embarking on flying training I was a different person. The stress-related eczema I had put up with for years, disappeared. My wife had a new husband. My friends a cheerful new mate. Every single person I knew before I changed careers has commented on how happy I am.

Yes, there's the stress of exams, money and the increasing doom and gloom about jobs, but I am quite happy thank you very much. I know I made the correct decision. By hook or by crook I will be employed in the aviation industry once I am qualified, even if I'm earning £2.50 an hour teaching others to fly. It's better than going back to a daily routine that made me unhappy.

[Life's a Beech]

Can't I say "No, no regrets but also no desire to fly at 37,000 feet? FL100 perfectly sufficient for me"?

[chris-squire]

Im still in early days of my training (just finishing off PPL with ATPL's starting in 6 weeks time) so cant say I'm exactly in the know about post training issues....but the above post regarding money being the driving force in choosing jobs kind of struck a chord with me. Of course money has always been a factor but now so more than ever. Let me elaborate...I would love to try my hand at instructing for a while. Yes its great to build some hours and get paid but more importantly I think it would be a fantastic learning experience. I'll never forget the look in my instructors eye after my first solo...he was genuinely really proud and clearly got a massive buzz out of it, which I can really understand. But unfortunately I am shackled to a rather large loan from good old HSBC and the repayments would just not allow me to consider instructing unless there was absolutely nothing else purely because of the pay. I have a serious love of flying like most of you guys on here, but money seems to play a bigger part in choosing our career paths than ever before. Sadly!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sorry but you are making the classic mistake of someone on holiday who decides to buy a small property there. Being a flying instructor is miserably repetitive work that is dangerous and very poorly paid - McDonalds offers better money I promise you.

But you were on such a high during basic flying training that you import some of that joy to the job of the bloke sat next to you. Try it. It wears off real quick. You won't like it and more importantly the £6k the FI course will cost you will take 20 years to repay on an instructors wage.

You have little idea of how casually the industry will discard and ignore your paltry 190hrs of flying experience. I've done that in 6 weeks and the fact you spent £50k> means nothing kid.

There is a really big really hard world out there awaiting Wannabes who often resemble lambs to the big shed with the drip tray.

WWW

[Deano777]

When I was a wannabe I used to dream of being an airline pilot. I first got interested in aviation during the Falklands War (my goodness, I am old), and all I wanted to do was fly. Now you could say I was the quintessential wannabe, everything that was me I read on here and see it in other people.
Left school, decided to start flying when I was 28 (I know I left it way too late). Obtained my PPL in 2001 still dreaming of that big job, my friends & family used to big me up and take interest in what I was doing which made the whole thing even more exciting.
Started my ATPLs, the same dreams and excitement was there, it's all I wanted to do. Then I started my CPL, passed this and thought that I was nearly there, passed my IR, not long now I thought. Then the next step was the MCC, this was great, I flew an airliner woohoo, this is marvellous, then did my FIC course and started instructing.
Not long now I thought, I then had an interview with an airline, did well, passed it. Next stage was the sim check, did well, passed it. Next stage was the job offer & base, then the type rating. Did the groundschool, passed that ok, jumped in the Sim, passed the LST etc etc. Then started line training, passed this too in minimum sectors, this is going swimmingly well.

Now the point I am making by typing all that up is that now I am actually there doing it, it isn't the be all & end all, it's pretty cool yes, does it get me excited? sometimes, am I lucky? well yes I think so, but it's just a job, and the aircraft I fly is great, but it's just another cockpit. When I first flew past the Swiss Alps I was amazed, now they are "just the Swiss Alps". Now I am actually where I set out to be all those years ago it isn't a big deal any more, it's almost an anti climax, this sounds ungrateful I know, and all you wannabes will be saying "piss off then, I'll have your job", but please remember I was you once, I wanted it so bad I jacked in a £55k per year job, paid £60,000 modular to achieve it. I wanted it as bad as all you guys out there chasing it, and when I look in here now I have every empathy with guys trying to get in the system.

From someone who wanted it more than anyone (we all say that), trust me when I say it isn't all that it cracked up to be, I do enjoy it, I put my finger on what made me feel this way about it; well when you are a lowly PPL etc looking upwards at the pinnacle , it feels great to know that you will be there one day; airliners, stewardesses, big planes, glass cockpits, great destinations. But as you start moving up, i.e. the first part of my post, the CPL, the IR, the MCC, the interview, sim check, TR groundschool, Sim, line training etc, this is a natural build up to achieving your goal, as you take each stage it starts to become less of a deal, from being a PPL & fantastically excited, to starting line training and being mildly excited. Can anyone else who has been through it see what I am saying?

Don't pin your life on it guys, it really isn't that big a deal.