View Poll Results: Was flying training a bad decision for you?
Yes, regretfully so
113
17.07%
Neither a bad not a good choice
121
18.28%
No, hell no, see you are 37,000ft
428
64.65%
Voters: 662. This poll is closed
Knowing what you know now about this game, wud you have done it all in the 1st plce?
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Woooowahhh people
Sitrep
34yrs old, wife, no house, no kids, 32k pa scientist global defence company, about to apply for redundancy
Just about (fingers crossed) to pass the last stage of CTC Cadets selection and head off to NZ for training leaving the wife behind for 17weeks
Reading this makes me tres worried.
Are these storied NOT related to the cadet type routes which if i am not mistaken includes TR and a 'better' prospect of a job at the end (no guarantee of course!)
Are the horror storied in this thread from people who have NOT done a cadet scheme and maybe done self funded modular etc...
Sorry but i am trying to establish myself on the stark contrast GS between the cadets 'sales pitch' and reality whilst looking through the fog that is the difference between the various routes to becoming an airline pilot.
Barry
Sitrep
34yrs old, wife, no house, no kids, 32k pa scientist global defence company, about to apply for redundancy
Just about (fingers crossed) to pass the last stage of CTC Cadets selection and head off to NZ for training leaving the wife behind for 17weeks
Reading this makes me tres worried.
Are these storied NOT related to the cadet type routes which if i am not mistaken includes TR and a 'better' prospect of a job at the end (no guarantee of course!)
Are the horror storied in this thread from people who have NOT done a cadet scheme and maybe done self funded modular etc...
Sorry but i am trying to establish myself on the stark contrast GS between the cadets 'sales pitch' and reality whilst looking through the fog that is the difference between the various routes to becoming an airline pilot.
Barry
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no sponsor,
I can envisage everything you're experiencing. And as a wannabe shortly due to complete prof training (PPL for 8 years) I am now at a point where I do not consider an airline career to be healthy (for my family situation) unless it's with FR or EZ. Granted, the LCC sector comes with it's own health warnings.
I have plenty of experience in another career and cannot see myself do that for life too. Every one I meet says that. It's a fact of life we'll get bored with anything we do for too long. If you could find an airline with the right lifestyle for you wouldn't you stay?
It's very important to achieve happiness with repetition. It's not repetition, it's just life.
I can envisage everything you're experiencing. And as a wannabe shortly due to complete prof training (PPL for 8 years) I am now at a point where I do not consider an airline career to be healthy (for my family situation) unless it's with FR or EZ. Granted, the LCC sector comes with it's own health warnings.
I have plenty of experience in another career and cannot see myself do that for life too. Every one I meet says that. It's a fact of life we'll get bored with anything we do for too long. If you could find an airline with the right lifestyle for you wouldn't you stay?
It's very important to achieve happiness with repetition. It's not repetition, it's just life.
Last edited by Superpilot; 20th May 2008 at 09:04.
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belongins
Well, I'm just a passing reader on this thread, but from what I've read on multitude of threads, those 'can of beer and sad look' are more likely the integrated guys, whether they 'nailed it' with SSTR or not.
Those who actually can't afford to gamble, ie being loaded and integrated or just simply modular route folks, flying when they can/got dosh in their free time, in full time job, they don't have reason to be too wrecked...
Luke SkyToddler,
That's the only thing I'm scared of. Not the hardships of 'getting there', not the job uncertainties, medical (OK, this one a bit) in future, but flying becoming such routine that other career would be better..
All the while when I can't imagine any job outside aviation as a career.
That's one of few reasons I'm going rotary. And going rotary and the time and cost partly puts me off. I'll be wiser in September :-D But I love flying in general. I consider getting airline job way down the 'training decade' starting next month, but it's not my priority. Yeah, money good. Not much 'real' flying with all the prescribed things, procedures, pressure etc.
I'm already planning my airplane and glider private next year.
I'm going my 'tailored modular' way. Although one guy suggested trying to get onto OAT or CTC thing, I wrote him - 'no thanks', know about it, but it's not an option.
Well, I'm just a passing reader on this thread, but from what I've read on multitude of threads, those 'can of beer and sad look' are more likely the integrated guys, whether they 'nailed it' with SSTR or not.
Those who actually can't afford to gamble, ie being loaded and integrated or just simply modular route folks, flying when they can/got dosh in their free time, in full time job, they don't have reason to be too wrecked...
Luke SkyToddler,
That's the only thing I'm scared of. Not the hardships of 'getting there', not the job uncertainties, medical (OK, this one a bit) in future, but flying becoming such routine that other career would be better..
All the while when I can't imagine any job outside aviation as a career.
That's one of few reasons I'm going rotary. And going rotary and the time and cost partly puts me off. I'll be wiser in September :-D But I love flying in general. I consider getting airline job way down the 'training decade' starting next month, but it's not my priority. Yeah, money good. Not much 'real' flying with all the prescribed things, procedures, pressure etc.
I'm already planning my airplane and glider private next year.
I'm going my 'tailored modular' way. Although one guy suggested trying to get onto OAT or CTC thing, I wrote him - 'no thanks', know about it, but it's not an option.
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Belongins - I don't think mine is a horror story, I just wanted to make the point that it's dammed hard work to get to the RHS and is often a very costly experience. Has it been worth it? For me, today, absolutely. However, I'm only a couple of months into my first commercial job - ask me again in 10 years time and you might get a different answer. Who knows - for the moment I'm just enjoying being paid to do what I love doing.
I'd suggest there is another, broader, point here. Modern life is itself very stressful, it's not just restricted to aviation. We all have a tendency to see greener grass somewhere else, and without wishing any disrespect to those who have spent their entire working lives in this industry, the ideal of a nice stable 9-5 job can be just as false as the 'glamorous' image of an airline pilot. Having worked nearly 15 years in 'normal' jobs, and 10 of those commuting to London, I don't think it's any less stressful than flying - it's just a different kind of stress. I'm the most laid back bloke in the world, but I've come very close to hitting other commuters on the train - because everyone's tired, everyone is stressed, everyone is wound up. I've seen a pair of commuters (two women in fact) have a Mexican standoff on a narrow pavement because neither would move over for the other. I've got halfway home from the station before realising that my fists were still clenched . . .
So you'd get to see your kids every night, but if you're leaving the house at 7am and aren't back until 7.30 - 8pm (and knackered with it) then how much quality time are you actually getting with them? Maybe I'm lucky with my airline, but I actually get more quality time off now than I did in my previous career.
I certainly wouldn't try and put anyone off a flying career, I think it's the best job in the world - for me. It won't be for everyone, and all you can do is gather as much information as possible before you commit, so as to make an informed decision.
This thread is a very good start.
I'd suggest there is another, broader, point here. Modern life is itself very stressful, it's not just restricted to aviation. We all have a tendency to see greener grass somewhere else, and without wishing any disrespect to those who have spent their entire working lives in this industry, the ideal of a nice stable 9-5 job can be just as false as the 'glamorous' image of an airline pilot. Having worked nearly 15 years in 'normal' jobs, and 10 of those commuting to London, I don't think it's any less stressful than flying - it's just a different kind of stress. I'm the most laid back bloke in the world, but I've come very close to hitting other commuters on the train - because everyone's tired, everyone is stressed, everyone is wound up. I've seen a pair of commuters (two women in fact) have a Mexican standoff on a narrow pavement because neither would move over for the other. I've got halfway home from the station before realising that my fists were still clenched . . .
So you'd get to see your kids every night, but if you're leaving the house at 7am and aren't back until 7.30 - 8pm (and knackered with it) then how much quality time are you actually getting with them? Maybe I'm lucky with my airline, but I actually get more quality time off now than I did in my previous career.
I certainly wouldn't try and put anyone off a flying career, I think it's the best job in the world - for me. It won't be for everyone, and all you can do is gather as much information as possible before you commit, so as to make an informed decision.
This thread is a very good start.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
My opinion on all of this.
Don't go straight to an jet airline. Sure the money's better and you'll probably need it to service the debt the flying school's convinced you to take on but you'll be bored within 5 years.
Take your time with learning to fly and don't amass a huge debt that you'll be a slave to. Get some piston flying in if you can. Then jump to a turboprop and do a variety of flying on that. Have some fun and be brave enough to shift locations. Go to Scotland. Go to Africa. Where ever. Get some real flying in and have an adventure.
By then you'll be seasoned enough to know what flying a jet's all about from A to B. You won't be frustrated as such because you'll know what the other flying's like. Good and bad.
Find a job that challenges you every day and has a good range of short, medium and long haul options. Find a new aircraft to fly every 5 or so years. That'll keep the boredom away. Also I get plenty of time at home and the money's pretty good.
So, for all the reasons above, I love my job. (Even though I am on standby in Luton)
Unfortunately, the above career path isn't sold by the FTOs in Europe. Nor do many recruiters understand the "piston/turboprop thing" and think you're inferior because you're not in a jet....
Don't go straight to an jet airline. Sure the money's better and you'll probably need it to service the debt the flying school's convinced you to take on but you'll be bored within 5 years.
Take your time with learning to fly and don't amass a huge debt that you'll be a slave to. Get some piston flying in if you can. Then jump to a turboprop and do a variety of flying on that. Have some fun and be brave enough to shift locations. Go to Scotland. Go to Africa. Where ever. Get some real flying in and have an adventure.
By then you'll be seasoned enough to know what flying a jet's all about from A to B. You won't be frustrated as such because you'll know what the other flying's like. Good and bad.
Find a job that challenges you every day and has a good range of short, medium and long haul options. Find a new aircraft to fly every 5 or so years. That'll keep the boredom away. Also I get plenty of time at home and the money's pretty good.
So, for all the reasons above, I love my job. (Even though I am on standby in Luton)
Unfortunately, the above career path isn't sold by the FTOs in Europe. Nor do many recruiters understand the "piston/turboprop thing" and think you're inferior because you're not in a jet....
Supercharged PPRuNer
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Top advice Reddo.
I've got a good friend at BA who is well paid, quite a long way up the seniority ladder and flies an electric Wonderbus. He doesn't trim it, he doesn't get to use manual thrust, for him an NDB approach is an event. He went straight on to jets and regrets having missed out on the turboprop experience. 'Boring' is maybe putting it a bit strongly, but you get my drift.
Happily, 'boring' is not a word I'd use to describe my current type.
I've got a good friend at BA who is well paid, quite a long way up the seniority ladder and flies an electric Wonderbus. He doesn't trim it, he doesn't get to use manual thrust, for him an NDB approach is an event. He went straight on to jets and regrets having missed out on the turboprop experience. 'Boring' is maybe putting it a bit strongly, but you get my drift.
Happily, 'boring' is not a word I'd use to describe my current type.
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@MartinCH
FWIW and from what i have read its the modular and self sponsored guys and gals that seem to struggle - In that case why not CTC?
@Chelsce
LLC is - Low Cost Carrier (FR/EZ etc)
FWIW and from what i have read its the modular and self sponsored guys and gals that seem to struggle - In that case why not CTC?
@Chelsce
LLC is - Low Cost Carrier (FR/EZ etc)
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People have said to me on here, why did'nt I get an instructors rating instead, as it would have been a better long term move.
Well I was actually just about to sign up for an FI course when "Air Piss Takers" offered me a job. Spend 15k on a tr and we'll give you a job afterwards they said. So the money I had to pay for an FI rating went on that instead. Looks like with hindsight buying the FI rating would have been a better idea, but now I have no cash, and even if I did I would be inclined to "stop throwing good money after bad."
It isn't just the battle to get a job which has disheartened me so much, but the appaulingly bad, sometimes absurd management I have come across within the industry. I have had some rediculous offers:- "come and work for us for free", "pay us 5000 euro and we'll give you a job", turned up for one "flying job" and spent the day washing planes!
With respect to the particular airline that has let me down so badly over my "job", quite franky a bunch of monkeys could run things better.
Why can't these people simply conduct their business in an appropriate and sensible manner?
Here's a revolutionary idea for all those airlines / flying companies out there: "how about I come and work hard for you and fly your planes, you pay me a regular wage and give me a small element of job security?"
Seems to work in any other profession, even the kids down my local Macdonalds are at least working for a professionally run management system, even if the job is crap!
Well I was actually just about to sign up for an FI course when "Air Piss Takers" offered me a job. Spend 15k on a tr and we'll give you a job afterwards they said. So the money I had to pay for an FI rating went on that instead. Looks like with hindsight buying the FI rating would have been a better idea, but now I have no cash, and even if I did I would be inclined to "stop throwing good money after bad."
It isn't just the battle to get a job which has disheartened me so much, but the appaulingly bad, sometimes absurd management I have come across within the industry. I have had some rediculous offers:- "come and work for us for free", "pay us 5000 euro and we'll give you a job", turned up for one "flying job" and spent the day washing planes!
With respect to the particular airline that has let me down so badly over my "job", quite franky a bunch of monkeys could run things better.
Why can't these people simply conduct their business in an appropriate and sensible manner?
Here's a revolutionary idea for all those airlines / flying companies out there: "how about I come and work hard for you and fly your planes, you pay me a regular wage and give me a small element of job security?"
Seems to work in any other profession, even the kids down my local Macdonalds are at least working for a professionally run management system, even if the job is crap!
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G SXTY
Did you do a cadet sponsored route or modular/self funded etc
redsnail
While this sounds all well and good i cant help thinking that the approach you are championing is NOT really suiable for a sponsored cadet route and is more suited to self funded / modular route. In which case your suggestion is probably is a good idea as airlines are not likely to be that intersted in a low hr non TR recently qualified fATPL such as those produced by the self funded/modular routes?
These are all retorical questions you understand - i am merely trying to find out as much as i can before i jump ship - so to speak.
B
Did you do a cadet sponsored route or modular/self funded etc
redsnail
While this sounds all well and good i cant help thinking that the approach you are championing is NOT really suiable for a sponsored cadet route and is more suited to self funded / modular route. In which case your suggestion is probably is a good idea as airlines are not likely to be that intersted in a low hr non TR recently qualified fATPL such as those produced by the self funded/modular routes?
These are all retorical questions you understand - i am merely trying to find out as much as i can before i jump ship - so to speak.
B
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Took me several years to get the job. It's alright and I'm happy enough, but I expected to feel a great sense of relief and to feel that I'd "made it", which I don't. Money is still very tight, the roster changes every five minutes so planning a life is difficult (I agree with whoever said we're just a commodity) and as a new FO, it feels a bit like being back at school. I already feel resentful over the way we're treated.
I'm not sure that the hardship is worth the reward. I can envisage looking for a non-flying job in a few years, with a bit of weekend instructing to satisfy the pilot in me.
I'm not sure that the hardship is worth the reward. I can envisage looking for a non-flying job in a few years, with a bit of weekend instructing to satisfy the pilot in me.
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Previous office-based career, not related to aviation
Self-funded modular with gaps of a few months between each module.
400 hours TT on completion of training
Instructed for 2/3 years
First interview at around 700 hours but failed the sim check
Now flying turboprop, didn't pay for type rating but bonded.
The flying is the bit I enjoy - no complaints about the aircraft, routes, variety, level of interest/challenge, etc. - it's all the other elements of being employed by an airline that ruin it.
Self-funded modular with gaps of a few months between each module.
400 hours TT on completion of training
Instructed for 2/3 years
First interview at around 700 hours but failed the sim check
Now flying turboprop, didn't pay for type rating but bonded.
The flying is the bit I enjoy - no complaints about the aircraft, routes, variety, level of interest/challenge, etc. - it's all the other elements of being employed by an airline that ruin it.
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Interesting
In the context of not knowing anything i would ahve thought regional turboprop flying would allow for quite a stable well planned private life - oh well as said i knowa nothing
How long are you bonded for. I know its circa 18k for TR so i guess its of the order of 3 years perhaps?
B
In the context of not knowing anything i would ahve thought regional turboprop flying would allow for quite a stable well planned private life - oh well as said i knowa nothing
How long are you bonded for. I know its circa 18k for TR so i guess its of the order of 3 years perhaps?
B
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Belongins, if you're trying to reach some conclusion that its only the self sponsored modular guys who have ended up in the soup then you are barking up the wrong tree.
I know a lot of pilots, integrated and modular who have been looking for jobs for years. Almost every instructor I had was from either FTE or Oxford.
If a pilot were sponsored by an airline, then it would be unlikely that they would be without a job after 3 years, but there are however hardly any sponsorship schemes around.
All wannabe pilots are self-sponsored, save for a very small minority.
I know a lot of pilots, integrated and modular who have been looking for jobs for years. Almost every instructor I had was from either FTE or Oxford.
If a pilot were sponsored by an airline, then it would be unlikely that they would be without a job after 3 years, but there are however hardly any sponsorship schemes around.
All wannabe pilots are self-sponsored, save for a very small minority.
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The reson for all the questioning is to quantify how much in the soup the CTC Wings cadet scheme could be. This is a sponsored scheme so i am guessing - not really in the soup?
B
B
The CTC cadetship scheme is gushing pilots out of its training output pipe. Trouble is the airlines are stopping recruiting and there is a pool building up.
Will there still be enough takers come the winter to start draining the pool?
Will CTC be able to farm out pool swimmers to the four corners of the earth?
Will the wages be enough to allow for loan repayments and living costs?
Will the banks stop issues the training loans if they see cadets not finding lucrative enough work?
Interesting times ahead.
WWW
Will there still be enough takers come the winter to start draining the pool?
Will CTC be able to farm out pool swimmers to the four corners of the earth?
Will the wages be enough to allow for loan repayments and living costs?
Will the banks stop issues the training loans if they see cadets not finding lucrative enough work?
Interesting times ahead.
WWW
