View Poll Results: Was flying training a bad decision for you?
Yes, regretfully so
113
17.07%
Neither a bad not a good choice
121
18.28%
No, hell no, see you are 37,000ft
428
64.65%
Voters: 662. This poll is closed
Knowing what you know now about this game, wud you have done it all in the 1st plce?
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Hi Redsnail,
I completely agree, you have to be exceptionally careful and understand all that could be thrown at you.
The medical, fortunately I have insurance for that (It's actually part of the agreement with CTC and you cannot do the course without it) I've also seen at first hand how it feels to have the medical taken away from you, my gf's Dad was recently mega ill and had his licence revoked and he's a jumbo Captain for BA, fortunately he has got it back.
But yes as I write this there is a chap opposite me, fully CPL IR'd up from Oxford who cannot find a job. I am fully aware what I am getting into and I think anyone who gets into this sector should be fully aware. Spending the best part of 100k and paying back best part of 140k is not something to do lightly.
But I would also say that there comes a point when you have to go for it, not neccessarily me, but anyone who wants to get into it. Surely there comes a point when the talking and dreaming has to stop and you have to put what you want to do into practice? Then when you get the licence, the road starts again, but then what? stop? wait for a job? Hell no, you network, get advice, apply like crazy, bottom kiss, do what ever it takes to get your foot on that ladder.
It may take a miraculous 2 years, it may take 10, but I think I'd rather give it a go than sit in an office at 35 going what if?
But as stated redsnail, its an eyes wide open situation! What's that saying, 'aim for the best, but plan for the worst'? Think it's something like that!
I completely agree, you have to be exceptionally careful and understand all that could be thrown at you.
The medical, fortunately I have insurance for that (It's actually part of the agreement with CTC and you cannot do the course without it) I've also seen at first hand how it feels to have the medical taken away from you, my gf's Dad was recently mega ill and had his licence revoked and he's a jumbo Captain for BA, fortunately he has got it back.
But yes as I write this there is a chap opposite me, fully CPL IR'd up from Oxford who cannot find a job. I am fully aware what I am getting into and I think anyone who gets into this sector should be fully aware. Spending the best part of 100k and paying back best part of 140k is not something to do lightly.
But I would also say that there comes a point when you have to go for it, not neccessarily me, but anyone who wants to get into it. Surely there comes a point when the talking and dreaming has to stop and you have to put what you want to do into practice? Then when you get the licence, the road starts again, but then what? stop? wait for a job? Hell no, you network, get advice, apply like crazy, bottom kiss, do what ever it takes to get your foot on that ladder.
It may take a miraculous 2 years, it may take 10, but I think I'd rather give it a go than sit in an office at 35 going what if?
But as stated redsnail, its an eyes wide open situation! What's that saying, 'aim for the best, but plan for the worst'? Think it's something like that!
Between 1991 and 1994 there were NO JOBS. In 1990 and 1995 they were like rocking horse poo.
In 1998/99/00>Sept11th there were jobs all over the place and in 2005/6 they were getting desperate and hiring whole courses of self sponsored type rating guys over the phone.
This industry is boom and bust personified.
We are currently in an early stage of bust. The difference to you as a low time wannabe is like night to day. I just wouldn't bother. Do something else for a couple or three years. Then come back to your dream. Its about to morph into a nightmare so you may as well be somewhere else.
WWW
In 1998/99/00>Sept11th there were jobs all over the place and in 2005/6 they were getting desperate and hiring whole courses of self sponsored type rating guys over the phone.
This industry is boom and bust personified.
We are currently in an early stage of bust. The difference to you as a low time wannabe is like night to day. I just wouldn't bother. Do something else for a couple or three years. Then come back to your dream. Its about to morph into a nightmare so you may as well be somewhere else.
WWW
Join Date: Mar 2006
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WWW,
I would have thought it better to train during a downturn? I mean if you are as you said night and day away from being a pilot, then by the time you finish the training, you could be what, maybe dawn?
This is exactly my point, I have spent my years up London, doing the corporate thing, I can very easily go back to it, do I want to? NO, does any wannabe want to? NO, but what do you do? listen to the gloom and doom which even my gf's Dad listened to 25 years ago, or do you bite the bullit and go for it?
As said in a previous post, in 10 years time I could have the most expensive piece of paper I will ever own, or I could be a SFO, you really never know.
I would have thought it better to train during a downturn? I mean if you are as you said night and day away from being a pilot, then by the time you finish the training, you could be what, maybe dawn?
This is exactly my point, I have spent my years up London, doing the corporate thing, I can very easily go back to it, do I want to? NO, does any wannabe want to? NO, but what do you do? listen to the gloom and doom which even my gf's Dad listened to 25 years ago, or do you bite the bullit and go for it?
As said in a previous post, in 10 years time I could have the most expensive piece of paper I will ever own, or I could be a SFO, you really never know.
Nobody can say for sure when the best time to train is. For you it might be now.
Generally though I would say it is well worth trying to get your timing right. You have a very small window at the culmination of your £70k training course when you are fully up to speed and ready for a first job type rating and line training. As the months roll on you get rusty very very quickly and your rapidly acquired skills rapidly diminish.
Spend a year or two or even three without doing some demanding flying and frankly you'll be rubbish compared to those competing for the same job who are fresh out of training.
THAT is your problem and THAT is why it is desireable to keep your powder dry and enter the first job market is not at a great time then at least not as a disaster time like 1991/2/3/4. Which is where I think we are right now.
Why not quietly get on with a PPL and IMC rating and start distance learning the ATPLs whilst building some hours in the logbook. Take 24 months doing so before you commit to exams and CPL's and Multi ratings. In the meantime continue to save. At least it will allow you to pay for an additional Instructors rating or SSTR on a commercial type.
Being in a hurry to get basic training done is a bit pointless at the moment.
WWW
Generally though I would say it is well worth trying to get your timing right. You have a very small window at the culmination of your £70k training course when you are fully up to speed and ready for a first job type rating and line training. As the months roll on you get rusty very very quickly and your rapidly acquired skills rapidly diminish.
Spend a year or two or even three without doing some demanding flying and frankly you'll be rubbish compared to those competing for the same job who are fresh out of training.
THAT is your problem and THAT is why it is desireable to keep your powder dry and enter the first job market is not at a great time then at least not as a disaster time like 1991/2/3/4. Which is where I think we are right now.
Why not quietly get on with a PPL and IMC rating and start distance learning the ATPLs whilst building some hours in the logbook. Take 24 months doing so before you commit to exams and CPL's and Multi ratings. In the meantime continue to save. At least it will allow you to pay for an additional Instructors rating or SSTR on a commercial type.
Being in a hurry to get basic training done is a bit pointless at the moment.
WWW
Supercharged PPRuNer
Join Date: Nov 2000
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gc2750
That sounds like a very sensible plan, and no, you are not too old in your mid-thirties. WWW has perfectly summed up the way this industry works.
Guys - success in this game doesn't depend on how good you are or how much money you have. It really boils down to two things - timing and contacts.
This is a bad time to be starting commercial training. If you qualify when there are no jobs, you won't get a job. End of. You'll then have to tread water for two or three years waiting for the market to improve. Maintaining IR currency without flying commercially is cripplingly expensive - I'd say it's nigh-on impossible. Even if you do manage to stay current, you'll be competing with all the people who qualified after you and are fresh out of training. Qualify when the market is booming, and unless there's something seriously wrong with you, you'll find some sort of job with someone, somewhere.
Contacts are absolutely everything. Network like crazy. Contacts can get your CV to the top of the pile, can help you with interview advice, can help you with sim preparation. Remember that this industry is an incredibly small world; make friends and keep in touch with your old PPL instructor - in a few years time he or she might be an FO who 'knows someone'. Never, ever p!ss people off in this business, everyone has long memories.
Remember those points and you will be on the right track.
That sounds like a very sensible plan, and no, you are not too old in your mid-thirties. WWW has perfectly summed up the way this industry works.
Guys - success in this game doesn't depend on how good you are or how much money you have. It really boils down to two things - timing and contacts.
This is a bad time to be starting commercial training. If you qualify when there are no jobs, you won't get a job. End of. You'll then have to tread water for two or three years waiting for the market to improve. Maintaining IR currency without flying commercially is cripplingly expensive - I'd say it's nigh-on impossible. Even if you do manage to stay current, you'll be competing with all the people who qualified after you and are fresh out of training. Qualify when the market is booming, and unless there's something seriously wrong with you, you'll find some sort of job with someone, somewhere.
Contacts are absolutely everything. Network like crazy. Contacts can get your CV to the top of the pile, can help you with interview advice, can help you with sim preparation. Remember that this industry is an incredibly small world; make friends and keep in touch with your old PPL instructor - in a few years time he or she might be an FO who 'knows someone'. Never, ever p!ss people off in this business, everyone has long memories.
Remember those points and you will be on the right track.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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the queston you should ask yourself my friend is:
If you hadn' t tried at all, would you be happy now?
if the answer is yes, then maybe this business is not for you in the first place. If you want to fly there is nothing else you want to do for a living (at least that s the way it s always been for me). and yes, that s considering the long days, the though times ahead, the long and hard way to get there etc..
the way i see life is as a big bet. always try and believe, otherwise what is life about?
best of luck
If you hadn' t tried at all, would you be happy now?
if the answer is yes, then maybe this business is not for you in the first place. If you want to fly there is nothing else you want to do for a living (at least that s the way it s always been for me). and yes, that s considering the long days, the though times ahead, the long and hard way to get there etc..
the way i see life is as a big bet. always try and believe, otherwise what is life about?
best of luck
Follow the call - do it!
After having skiined through most of the posts on this thread, I can see optimism from some with a realism borne of experience from others.
There is almost nothing worse in life to have not at least tried to follow your star. If it does not work out, we live in a world where one can go back and start at something new. Indeed that is not always a comfortable position to be in financially, but why be ensconced in an office cubicle at the age of 40 wondering what it had been like to have flown and looked out over the horizon. Sure the career is nothing like it was (and even then for a very very few was it a real lifestyle)
For those who are interested, this was very much the theme of my short book and I have been told it has served as a mirror to many who have read it as I ask that very question - "Was it worth it?" I was lucky and had the chance to do what I wanted and that was to see the wider world, but the price as of late has been high as I watch the U.S. airline industry crumble and implode.
Of course I would like for you to read my thoughts in length, but I am a VERY firm supporter of the camp that says - follow your voice - if you want to fly do it!
Amazon.com: The Outer Whorl: Neal A. Schier: Books
There is almost nothing worse in life to have not at least tried to follow your star. If it does not work out, we live in a world where one can go back and start at something new. Indeed that is not always a comfortable position to be in financially, but why be ensconced in an office cubicle at the age of 40 wondering what it had been like to have flown and looked out over the horizon. Sure the career is nothing like it was (and even then for a very very few was it a real lifestyle)
For those who are interested, this was very much the theme of my short book and I have been told it has served as a mirror to many who have read it as I ask that very question - "Was it worth it?" I was lucky and had the chance to do what I wanted and that was to see the wider world, but the price as of late has been high as I watch the U.S. airline industry crumble and implode.
Of course I would like for you to read my thoughts in length, but I am a VERY firm supporter of the camp that says - follow your voice - if you want to fly do it!
Amazon.com: The Outer Whorl: Neal A. Schier: Books
Join Date: May 2006
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In Australia there are Flight Training organisations that cannot retain their instructors; they all move on into airlines after a relatively short time because there is a dire shortage of pilots here.
I personally have over 1000 hrs, after only starting flying in 2003, all privately funded by my primary job. If I were not on the wrong side of 50 yrs of age I might consider a career in aviation.
When you are young you have time and health on your side, don't turn 50 and look back wishing you pursued a career as a pilot with regret.
I know the starting wages, by comparison to my industry (Information Technology), are lower and at times depressing, and would go a long way towrds explaining why airlines have a poor retention rate, but if you truely are obsessed by flying, like me, hang in there.
I personally have over 1000 hrs, after only starting flying in 2003, all privately funded by my primary job. If I were not on the wrong side of 50 yrs of age I might consider a career in aviation.
When you are young you have time and health on your side, don't turn 50 and look back wishing you pursued a career as a pilot with regret.
I know the starting wages, by comparison to my industry (Information Technology), are lower and at times depressing, and would go a long way towrds explaining why airlines have a poor retention rate, but if you truely are obsessed by flying, like me, hang in there.
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Often when I say what I do for a living I find that people are keen to hear that 'it is not that great after all' i.e. long hours, never get to stay at the places we go. It is all justification, I guess it makes people feel better about their boring but 'sensible' jobs. After all, they get Chrismas off, and good benefits.
I can't think of anything worse than looking back and knowing I failed to do what I really wanted to do. It would be a life full of regrets.
I can't think of anything worse than looking back and knowing I failed to do what I really wanted to do. It would be a life full of regrets.
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Nope. Am 40 and in first year of proper flying job.
Perhaps another way to look at this question would be to ask "Are there other pursuits in life that can give the same sense of reward/satisfaction that flying has?
What I mean by this is that it is right and proper to ask others if they thought that their path was "worth it," but since no one's path is exactly like anothers then it might be best to ask why is aviation exerting a draw on me and what do I expect (or would like) to gain from it? I know that is a difficult question to answer, but if you can then you can compare it to other pursuits that you have in mind.
Sounds like a rather verbose thought, but if one is tipping toward middle age and is thinking of taking a step toward flying, one must ask what exactly is one trying to find? What is the motivation. If you ask others if they think it was "worth it" then be sure to also ask what motivated (or still does) them to take up the calling.
Just MHO
What I mean by this is that it is right and proper to ask others if they thought that their path was "worth it," but since no one's path is exactly like anothers then it might be best to ask why is aviation exerting a draw on me and what do I expect (or would like) to gain from it? I know that is a difficult question to answer, but if you can then you can compare it to other pursuits that you have in mind.
Sounds like a rather verbose thought, but if one is tipping toward middle age and is thinking of taking a step toward flying, one must ask what exactly is one trying to find? What is the motivation. If you ask others if they think it was "worth it" then be sure to also ask what motivated (or still does) them to take up the calling.
Just MHO
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ATPL
I would not do it again. Its too difficult to get a job and too much uncertainties in this industry. we had the fun of experiencing 09/11 job market with major airlines bust
I have seen many of my friends who could not get a job, any job (even with 500 applications)
As others have said, the timing must be perfect which is not obvious, especially when working at the same time which i did, since a JAR fATPL can then take 2-3 years at least (who can predict what happens in 3 years times ?)
I think it is even a better idea to buy a private airplane and fly for fun on week-ends, even IFR.
if your father is chief pilot or owns an airline, do it for sure however
I have seen many of my friends who could not get a job, any job (even with 500 applications)
As others have said, the timing must be perfect which is not obvious, especially when working at the same time which i did, since a JAR fATPL can then take 2-3 years at least (who can predict what happens in 3 years times ?)
I think it is even a better idea to buy a private airplane and fly for fun on week-ends, even IFR.
if your father is chief pilot or owns an airline, do it for sure however
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Well the "Regretfully So" contingent is currently at 17%. I suspect that over the coming months, possibly years, if this thread continues this number will rise, regretfully ! FYI, I'm still in the "Neither a bad nor a good decision". That said I have been a little remorseful over the last couple of weeks when I think of all the hard work (I'm mainly thinking ground school here ) and money (I'm thinking MEIR here) that has been expended, and the dawning reality is I know I've missed the boat and by the time it's ready to set sail again I'll be shuffling around looking for my pipe and slippers ! At least over the last few years I was in with a chance, albeit a smaller one at my age.
Good luck !
Good luck !
