So where are all the jobs then?

[Re-Heat]

Pity how some people quash others' aspirations, when there are those who have succeeded through a direct route.

While realistic, I question the motivation of anyone who suggests anyone should lower their horizons if the possibilty exists at all...

On the other hand, judging by the tone of the original posts, you deserved the ear-bashing you received!

[mack 1]

No one forced me nor asked me to follow this career path, I decided. Like wise with all others. I qualified at the end of 2000 with a frozen ATPL. I have had some interviews and flight test but, unfortunately no job offer. Further to this be cautious about what the airlines say to you as I have been given some real hope only to have it dashed on three occations. I have been told at the end of an unterview that I am their ideal candidate, only to receive a so sorry letter. I have passed an interview and had a flight Test on a 737 and been told by the pilot that there was no reason for anyone to have any concerns about my ability, a week later sorry you failed the flight test! I have been told that I have a job on survey work I just need to have a short check out, this never came.
HOWEVER I AM NOT BITTER I have loved all my flying and yes I do also have a FI rating this I did part time and I would recommend this to everyone. Consider this part time weekends only if I was to pay for the flying hours it would have cost me over £ 30,000 each year.
I am fortunate that I have a good job and so does my wife. I am 42 yrs and now will not be looking to become an airline pilot as I have been told I am too old. I would have flown anything for anyone I was not thinking just big jets, I would have loved to fly short sectors in a turboprop.
Do not be angry with the industry this is the way of the world in all walks of life it is who you know.
I still can't stop running to a window to look at any aircraft flying past they are great arn't they.

[eghi r20]

Very nice post Mack, From the heart i think.......

This is a hard industry and a licence buys you nothing.
Some make it, some dont.

Sad but true.

enjoy every flight, those who get it !!

some can only dream of a PPL

EGHI

[Andi]

well said boys!could not have pointed it out better!
VITO:If you think you are unlucky please take a second to think about all those guys who finished just before 9/11 or shortly after(including me).They have been jobhunting for a long time (6years by now!!!) and if they would have taken the money to keep "current" renewing their Lic.they could have got a TR for it.If that would have made up for a job,only god knows!
Tell you a story about my last few years: I am german ,38,got initially UK FATPL ME IR MCC,convertet to JAR Lic.in March 2003 and FI rating since March 2006.
When I applied in UK they came back to me many times and said:sorry mate,correct Lic but wrong nationality!
When I applied in Germany they said:sorry mate,correct nationality but wrong (and now it goes very sad!!!) ,JAR Lic!!!! How the f....(please forgive me!) can you have the wrong JAR Lic!!!!!!!
(protecting the market)
But ,tell you what: I will never give up cuz I love it.
Get yourself an FI rating(if thats not too low for you!)and I garantie you a job next day!! PROMISE!!
I am working at a flight school instructing and in OPS (and cleaning cups)
Let you go but remember:never give up!
greets Andi
Ps:it is not my intention to pick on you,just trying to point out a few thing if you feel bad again.
Wish you all the luck,honestly!

[Trislander]

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and do an FI rating. I qualified a year ago and I have had so many maybe's and broken promises from airlines and it's really got me down. The biggest reason for this is the debts I now have from training. I've got more going out every month than I've got coming in and my bank balance just keeps plummeting further into the red. I wish I had ANY flying job which would pay me enough each month so I can at least start putting something aside for my car MOT, Medical renewal, etc, but would full-time instructing pay enough? I am working in aviation at the moment with a promise of employment after a certain period, but will I be let down again?? This time could be my lucky break... OR do I go and spend money on an FI rating and risk spiralling into more debt?! Who knows, but I have to make my mind up soon and that's the hardest bit. Everyone has advice on what you should do, but everyone's advice is conflicting and ends up being of no use as a result, just stresses you out more. I know what you're going thru mate, I wish I knew what to do right now. Anyone know the average salary for a fulltime FI?? I know I'd love doing it it's just my finances that have put me off.

Tri

[nike]

Who would want to employ you lot?

Wow.

This thread has truly been an eye opener for me.

I wonder if this will be the collective of those who don't make it?

If so, others could possibly be reassured by reading some of these posts and see a trend in the attitudes and efforts portrayed within. Just do the opposite and you'll probably make it.

Sure, one could have taken the "chin up mate" road but it appears that the level of self pity floating in here is beyond that worth trying to resurrect, and I just don't see a need to promote such attitudes as being ok.

The answer is (unfortunately for those seeking some magical fix) simple, at this point in time, there are still many GOOD people with appropriate experience and qualifications to employ, and so those with the aforementioned attitudes and a poxy CPL shall continue to be ignored for jobs that require more experience.

Honestly, go get a job commeserate with your experience.

Get over yourself, get out there and work your way up, get experience, get some self respect, build a career, earn a career, enjoy your career.


Or not.

[timzsta]

I know somebody who got a job on A320's because he had experience flying turboprops.
I know somebody who got a job flying 737's because she had 1000hrs Instructing.
I know somebody who got a job flying turboprops because he had experience as an FI and Air Taxi Pilot.
I know somebody who got a job as an Air Taxi pilot because he had experience in light aircraft as an FI.
It can be done, but not by moaning about the state of the industry. The only way is to "get one up".

[VFE]

Trislander,

If any of your debt's are unsecured then you can get the interest frozen and the repayments reduced on them via the Debt Councilling Service (a free charity organisation so no lousy concolidation loans req.). PM for more details - it could mean the difference between bancruptcy or a heart attack but at the very least will get the credit card companies off your back.

[china]

It does work

I passed my FI ratining in Aug 06 and got a job the very next day. I worked as a Flight Instructor for 6 months before I got offered a job flying a TP.

Being a Flight Instructor is hard work for little reward, BUT it is a stepping stone.

Keep flying and building experience it'll all come good.

[Desk-pilot]

Keep optimistic

I just wanted to say that I have been exactly the same as you guys and I know how awful it feels when you can't get a break. I finished OATS in April 2005 and with a new baby, wife and large mortgage was in dire straits financially for a few months. In the end I fell back into IT as a contractor and that gave me the means to:

a) Enjoy some of life's luxuries that we had missed for two years
b) Repay some debt
c) Keep my ratings current and hire commercial sims occasionally.

All of the above greatly improved my self esteem and general mood. I decided that I might or might not get a flying job in the end but I would keep trying. I was also aware that age (I'm now just turned 38) was against me too as was the domestic pressure of supporting a family.

After almost two years I was invited to interview with Flybe, got throught the sim and type rating and am now on the Q400 and completely loving it. I am however currently based 400 miles from wife and child so living out of B&B etc which isn't much fun!!

I hope that this proves of some comfort to those of you still waiting for a first break. Also I'd like to say that flying the Dash is a blast with plenty of hand flying, no autothrottle, some great Captains and good training. The money isn't good (yet) and the roster is pretty much max hours but it's all great experience. I was every bit as fed up as you feel though before I got a break so my advice is:

Go and get a job that puts money in your pocket so you can sort your finances out and start 'living' a bit.
Make a small number of well put together applications
Don't obsess about flying - focus on other aspects of your life that make you happy - family, friends, music, photography etc etc
Keep current.

[Vito Corleone]

It strikes me there are 3 routes to get a job in this rancid industry:
in order of preference.

1. Have a training captain as a father. I have seen many un-deserving incompetent jokers get jobs this way.

2. Buy your way to a job, either buy a) paying a huge premium to go to an integrated school who for some reason the Airlines like to recruit from direct, overlooking countless numbers of worthy modular students.
or b) paying 20 odd k for a type rating and hoping for the best.

3. Working your way up from the bottom, through instructing to air taxi to charter work to turbo prop to jets.

The airline industry is a complete reflection of Brittish capitalist society, where the rich get richer and the poor are left to rot.

For me, it will be route number 3. I was simply un-able to afford integrated training and can no way pay for a TR. And as I sit, eating value beans, living off a pittance for the next few years, working my way up this stinking industry who can blame me for feeling angry as those who go through routes number one and two earn impressive sallaries and progress onto captaincy, buying nice detached houses, taking nice holidays in the Carribbean during the time it takes me to even get a sniff at getting my foot in the door.

[expedite08]

A very down to earth thread this. A reality check and something that every wannabe should read. It should be a sticky I think. Its all very true, where are the jobs???
There are some disturbing accounts on here and I think the people who have shared that with us deserve a pat on the back for having the balls to do so. Im at the point where I am about to blow 25k away on all this flying lark. but am I??? This is the question. As much as I want to fly professionally the industry is obscene in its ways and methods.
Recruitment is not at all consistent. Examples are of billy boy with 250 hours walking strainght in a job after flight training and a person who has over 1000 hours and multi experince not getting sniffed at sometimes by the same company! Certainly for me this a severe worry.
Where I work now and in most normal industries if you have the credentials, ie qualifications, and dont make a **** of yourself by not filling in an application correctly, you usually have a chance of proving yourself in front of that employer at an interview, ie being given a chance.
The Aviation industry is so very ramdom in its recruiting methods. It is literally a lottery. This opinion has been stated on here before, but it is the most suitable anaolgy to put the situation. You buy your tickets all 30 to 60 grands worth, and hope for the best!!
The question is do I want to spend my 25 grand on lottery tickets? No one in thier right mind would do it for Camelot!! So why do it for a job?
Im still deciding.

[L A James]

If it's that much of an 'old boys network' industry then maybe the jobs are going to students from particular schools? Schools where the head of instructing is an ex Cpt from BA and still shares milk and cookies on a Friday evening with the head of BA recruitment etc....

I'm a wannabee and not as experienced in the industry as most of you guys but there are some schools that seem to have hazy employment prosepects and some that advertise guaranteed airline interviews.

I'm considering pilot training college in ireland and they boast 98% emplyment record within 2 months graduating, as well as a guaranteed airline interview.

Am I being naive in believing this?

[VFE]

Am I being naive in believing this?

In a word: yes.

[expedite08]

LA,

Possibly a bit naieve on the Guranteed interview bit, but, the rest of your post sums it up well!

[TurboJ]

Being a Flight Instructor is hard work for little reward, BUT it is a stepping stone.

Beg to differ. I thoroughly enjoy instructing and continue to do so even though my day job is from the RHS of something slightly bigger.

I know plenty of people who continue to instruct once it has given them the experience to move on.

[pilotmike]

Vito Corleone - I usually try to offer help, advice and encouragement to those who are looking for a bit of moral support, especially to those who seem to want to help themselves. However the positive posts here, including mine, clearly didn't seem to help your attitude one jot.

Taking a reality check, very few pilots would ever get a job purely on the basis of one senior person they know in the industry. It might get them an interview at best, but pilot jobs are invariably offered on merit, taking their attitude into account. So they have to prove their suitability, their flying skills, their personality, and most importantly of all, their teachability during the interview. The recruiting captain will usually ask himself "could I sit next to this person for 6 hours, with no escape?" Given your rant about the state of the industry and the mini lecture on

Brittish [sic] capitalist society

I think you would answer their question very clearly - NO!!!!

Why be so angry that the obvious route through instructing, smaller operators and turbo props to jets is slowly becoming clear to you? Surely your research before blowing your cash would show you that this is a very normal and sensible route. I'm sure you didn't jump straight into a Bentley turbo to do paid chauffeuring the day you passed your driving test? Why do you believe that the airlines are any different?

I flew for over 20 years, logging thousands of hours, instructing for much of it on almost anything that could fly, hang gliders, paragliders, gliders, microlights, aeroplanes and helicopters before I chose fly commercially in the airlines. It taught me a lot. I rather think that you still have an awful lot to learn before you have the remotest chance of succeeding in aviation. Why do you believe that you are owed a highly paid jet job 'straight out of school' when others have worked hard and worked their way up through the industry, learning as they go, for many years?

The weight of chips on your shoulder would make it almost impossible for you to fly. I came across many like you in my 17 years of teaching flying and each was a nightmare. Thankfully there were many more who made it a pleasure to teach, with their positive attitude, and willingness to learn. To succeed means having to learn. To learn means having to change. To change requires a positive, open mind, and to be adaptable. You show none of these essential qualities. And believe me, being teachable is the most important attribute when undertaking a type rating and line training - especially when the employer is paying!

For now, my best advice would be to save any money you have left - it could very well be wasted if spent chasing an airline job. Of all potential pilots, you are one of the prime candidates for self funding a type rating - no one else is going to do so for you with your attitude. You have just publicly advertised to every airline, every HR / recruitment department your true colours - what an own goal - I'm going red for you right now. Carry on like that, and you'll continue to score massive own goals, and you'll stay firmly earthbound.

Whereas you write of

this rancid industry:

it seems that it is your attitude that stinks. Nobody is owed anything in life, and never does this become clearer than in aviation, where attitude is everything.
With so much bitterness and bile spouting forth, I really doubt whether you are employable as a pilot. Certainly, for most interviewers, if you showed any hint of your hatred of the industry, you would be out of the interview room before you knew it.

Whilst you reflect on this, you might also wish to consider the impression that the application form / letter / CV makes when landing on the interviewer's desk. Given that there are normally 50 CVs to be weeded out to select the 2 to be chosen for interview, you have already made that selection process so much easier with your spelling errors, even before you start your vitriolic outburst about the industry which you arrogantly and mistakenly expect to employ you.

I wish I could be more positive for you, but you reap what you sow. Positive thinking breeds success, and bitterness breeds failure. The ball is in your court, but presently your airline career appears doomed to failure.

[MrHorgy]

Originally Posted by L A James

If it's that much of an 'old boys network' industry then maybe the jobs are going to students from particular schools?

They are! Without reopening the whole integrated vs modular debate again which has been discussed ad nauseum, you WILL find this happens. BA is a prime example. I see nothing wrong with saying you need 85% passes in your exams, but why do you have to go to Oxford? What if I get 100% in my exams but go modular, am I less of a pilot to you?

I worry for people who have a genuine desire to fly, but (like I) cannot afford the astronomical cost of integrated training. How they are costed is beyond me, especially when you get more hours with modular flying!

If airlines operated fair recruitment schemes open to all who were qualified, and didn't setup cosy deals with flight schools then they'd be more opportunities for all. You only have the industry to blame.

*end rant*

In the meantime there's nothing wrong with taking an FI route, infact it's something i've recent given thought to. Sabena Flight Academy are doing a 2year contract out in Arizona (with free FI rating, if I read correctly) to teach people to fly, that's an opportunity i'd love to take, but i'm only part way through my ME!

[boogie-nicey]

Rock On PilotMike, you said what quite desperately needed to be said NOT about the industry but the new wave of wannabes that have brought their inconsistent and incompatable ideas with them. Both during training and pursuing that all ellusive first job.

[Northern Highflyer]

In a similar situation to Desk Pilot myself. Over 35, qualified in 2005, and went back to my old job after qualifying to help pay the bills. Found hours hard to come by recently, and not in a position to follow the FI route yet due to finances, getting time off work, etc. Same reasons why I won’t go for a TR, but I am against buying the speculative TR anyway.

I went into this eyes wide open, didn’t expect a jet job to fall into my lap, indeed a TP job was preferable for the fun and experience of it all, but alas the only interview in the last 2+ years was for a jet operator which didn’t work out. I have seen all my friends get jobs recently, some knew people “on the inside”, some worked in the aviation environment, some paid for a speculative type rating. Well done to them I say.

But do I wallow in self pity ? Not at all, I get frustrated and annoyed at times, but no self pity. With hours hard to come by, companies like flybe who want 50 hours in the last 12 months don’t want my application, as are some of the larger airlines. One TP operator recently took great pleasure in verbally tearing me off a strip for having the audacity to phone them up about jobs as they are so busy and they don’t appreciate it. This despite me being told by someone who works for them that I need to speak to the right people as CV’s are a waste of time.

I am sure there are a few on here will reply with the usual, ‘if you want it enough’ and ‘nobody owes you a living’ etc, but I have never thought the latter, and I do want the former, but not at absolutely any price. As Desk Pilot alludes to, you have to live a bit and I do have other commitments besides flying. So I won’t be giving up the day job, selling the house, living in my car (assuming I haven’t sold that as well), and living on beans for the next few months while I do an FI and/or TR course. When the opportunity presents itself to do more I will take it with both hands, but until then I will try not to upset anyone else when I phone up about their recruitment plans.

If only the shortage of pilots was as real as the magazines make it out to be in their articles.