So where are all the jobs then?
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Modular/Integrated TR/No TR???????!!!!!
I can pretty much guarentee that theres not a single person out there that would have paid for there TR if they didn't have to. Just like if everyone could afford a full time course with all the frilly bits thrown in they would. No disrespect to pilots but its not like it used to be, your not knights of the sky with bimbos hanging off each arm and a jug of sangria by the pool. Unfortunately this site is clogged up with wanabes that are still clinging to the dream. Better to wake up and smell the coffee now methinks, the UK is one of the best places to be a commercial pilot. The fact that standards are dropping here is realistically just bringing us in line with most of the world and anyone that keeps one eye outside the aviation industry can tell you thats the way it is with everything. If your not willing to drag yourself through the cr@p to get to where you want to be then you dont really want it that bad, if doing an FI, flying a TP or even paying for your TR takes you were you want to be then atleast you can say you really did want it because look what you had to do to get it. Nothing anyone does can stop the UK's aviation industry slumping because people are always going to want value for money and unfortunately thats what your Ryanair, easyjet etc... give. I bet half the people that moan on here got a budget holiday rather than an all singing all dancing Virgin Hol. Am i the only one who sees the Irony here? By demanding value for money (which is every consumers right) you are simply banging the nails in to your own coffins. As the saying goes, you cant have your cake and eat it. This applies to all walks of life.
I wish i could afford an Integrated course on top of my mortgage, i wish i could afford a TR on top of that, most of all I wish i could guarentee a job at the end of it all. Unfortunately i have realised that i'm going to struggle through the modular route, spend an age looking for a job and then earn less than what i'm on now. But atleast i'll be flying, and i'll have a cheeky smile on my face when i think about how many of you will still be on here moaning about it.
I wish i could afford an Integrated course on top of my mortgage, i wish i could afford a TR on top of that, most of all I wish i could guarentee a job at the end of it all. Unfortunately i have realised that i'm going to struggle through the modular route, spend an age looking for a job and then earn less than what i'm on now. But atleast i'll be flying, and i'll have a cheeky smile on my face when i think about how many of you will still be on here moaning about it.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Anywere
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not agree
People with a 250h fresh out of school want to be a FO NOW!
and if they have to get a loan and go in debt so be it, screw everyone else!
In part that is what society has been teaching them instant reward and buy on credit.
So that is were your logic is wrong, there are job but they do not come with the at the bar I am working for an airline glamor! They might not be in your country or in a country that a lot of people consider living.
Farther more, are this guys EVER gonna complain about salary.... I hope not because the reason to be this low is because of them (the ones buying TR)
I can see myself years from now or tomorrow poping someone on the month when he complain about working condition and I find out he BOUT THE JOB
and if they have to get a loan and go in debt so be it, screw everyone else!
In part that is what society has been teaching them instant reward and buy on credit.
So that is were your logic is wrong, there are job but they do not come with the at the bar I am working for an airline glamor! They might not be in your country or in a country that a lot of people consider living.
Farther more, are this guys EVER gonna complain about salary.... I hope not because the reason to be this low is because of them (the ones buying TR)
I can see myself years from now or tomorrow poping someone on the month when he complain about working condition and I find out he BOUT THE JOB
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If everything you do is as half hearted as your posts i can imagine why your sat there moaning.
I would imagine the first people to buy a TR were in a situation where they had a mountain of debt and no job. Rather than go outside the aviation industry for pennys they had one last throw of the dice and got a TR.
Like i said, no one wants to pay for a TR but there are people willing to gamble everything for a chance to break in to the industry.
I for one am not going to belittle them or run them down for that, sounds to me like they are the ones that really want it and dont just expect it.
I would imagine the first people to buy a TR were in a situation where they had a mountain of debt and no job. Rather than go outside the aviation industry for pennys they had one last throw of the dice and got a TR.
Like i said, no one wants to pay for a TR but there are people willing to gamble everything for a chance to break in to the industry.
I for one am not going to belittle them or run them down for that, sounds to me like they are the ones that really want it and dont just expect it.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: the dust
Age: 46
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keep trying people. Just landed my first job and no need to buy anything else (except maybe a private pension). There are opportunities but you just have to keep plugging away to get the nod. I did the assessment for a certain Irish based loco and thought I'd done rather well - didn't get it (thankfully, in retrospect.) However, thought I'd made a balls of the assessment for the job I was just offered, so hey ho. You never know what might happen. Just keep harassing/networking with other pilots, it might get you in somewhere!
Like many wise people have said before me - keep your chin up, and don't give up. It WILL happen!
Like many wise people have said before me - keep your chin up, and don't give up. It WILL happen!
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly, just keep trying and talking. The more pilots that deny crappy non-bonded SSTR jobs the better there conditions will get; just ask Tyrolean. And if you need a place to still fly be an FI. Fun job with a lot of challenges.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Grrrr
Age: 17
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Passing a TR is not as easy as some of the posters make it out to be. The pass rate is very far from 99%. It is an expensive thing for an airline to put a guy on a TR if he fails because he a) costs money on wasted training b) leaves a gap in the seat of the airplane which needs to be filled by another guy - one they now have to find yesterday.
So, you can see the bean counter's desire for maximum chance of the candidate's success. The best way to determine those criteria is another matter.
Naturally, you do not hear people boasting about a failed TR course, but it is not an uncommon phenomenon.
So, you can see the bean counter's desire for maximum chance of the candidate's success. The best way to determine those criteria is another matter.
Naturally, you do not hear people boasting about a failed TR course, but it is not an uncommon phenomenon.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: エリア88
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Naturally, you do not hear people boasting about a failed TR course, but it is not an uncommon phenomenon.
I know of AT LEAST 5 pilots who couldn't make the transition on to large multi crew aircraft, some on the TR some on the base check.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: uk
Age: 57
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mercenary Pilot is quite correct there are many pilots who embark on a TR course only to find that when it comes to the base check they are unable to land the real aircraft.
Imagine you are the Fleet captain of an airline who has to explain to his superiors that he took on this guy, invested 20 grand in him, used the companies resources to try and train him, only to find that he can't land the aircraft.
It is true that most people who choose to carry out a type rating will eventually achieve a pass, the question is how many extra hours and extra pounds will it cost. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, with a TR you are a more attractive proposition.
Always Moving, I am disappointed at your failure to understand how things work in the real world. If you are willing to help support my wife and 2 kids, I will gladly stand next to you and wait until airlines decide to pay for training again, I can assure you it would be cheaper to buy the rating as I fear we will be waiting a fair while.
Pilotmike, as you rightly say companies will always look for the people who stand out from the crowd, the last thing they want is a training risk. I shall send your usual cheque in the post to thank you for your kind comments.
In summary I think we can all agree that to pay for a rating is not the most favourable way to get into this industry, we must all weigh the pros and cons of our personal situations and make our own decisions. For me the chosen path was, without question, the correct one
Imagine you are the Fleet captain of an airline who has to explain to his superiors that he took on this guy, invested 20 grand in him, used the companies resources to try and train him, only to find that he can't land the aircraft.
It is true that most people who choose to carry out a type rating will eventually achieve a pass, the question is how many extra hours and extra pounds will it cost. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, with a TR you are a more attractive proposition.
Always Moving, I am disappointed at your failure to understand how things work in the real world. If you are willing to help support my wife and 2 kids, I will gladly stand next to you and wait until airlines decide to pay for training again, I can assure you it would be cheaper to buy the rating as I fear we will be waiting a fair while.
Pilotmike, as you rightly say companies will always look for the people who stand out from the crowd, the last thing they want is a training risk. I shall send your usual cheque in the post to thank you for your kind comments.
In summary I think we can all agree that to pay for a rating is not the most favourable way to get into this industry, we must all weigh the pros and cons of our personal situations and make our own decisions. For me the chosen path was, without question, the correct one
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: location location location
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear Human resources,
Thank you for your letter of November 12. After careful consideration, I
regret to inform you that I am unable to accept your refusal to offer me
an first officer position in your company.
This year I have been particularly fortunate in receiving an unusually
large number of rejection letters. With such a varied and promising field
of candidates, it is impossible for me to accept all refusals.
Despite your outstanding qualifications and previous experience in
rejecting applicants, I find that your rejection does not meet my needs at
this time. Therefore, I will assume the position of first officer in your department this December.
I look forward to seeing you then.
Best of luck in rejecting future applicants.
Sincerely,
First Officer
Thank you for your letter of November 12. After careful consideration, I
regret to inform you that I am unable to accept your refusal to offer me
an first officer position in your company.
This year I have been particularly fortunate in receiving an unusually
large number of rejection letters. With such a varied and promising field
of candidates, it is impossible for me to accept all refusals.
Despite your outstanding qualifications and previous experience in
rejecting applicants, I find that your rejection does not meet my needs at
this time. Therefore, I will assume the position of first officer in your department this December.
I look forward to seeing you then.
Best of luck in rejecting future applicants.
Sincerely,
First Officer
Very true however...
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: nowhere
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Listen. I don't want to discourage you, but you do need to look at the reality. The training is tough, finding a job is tougher, and keeping a job is tougher still. Look at all the pilots that have jobs that you would kill for. They are complaining about one thing or another. There is something about most pilots that they are just never happy. Maybe part is that while younger we all saw the big paychecks, glamour, whatever...... It isn't like that anymore. Americans and Europeans (previously THE markets where it was good to be a pilot) are escaping to places we never thought we'd be in order to pay the bills. We are about the only profession where WE pay thousands to get a job. Others just get a job. We must do a good job once there, and give some buerocrat the opportunity to take our license twice a year. We're scrutinized at least annually for our medical condition. There aren't many jobs that are subject to the fluctuations in the market like ours is.
So, you must be tuned in on all these differences between a flight career, and the rest of the working world. Is it fair, hmmmm maybe the pax think so. Is it easy, no. Is it financially smart, NO. So, why do we do it? Either we have big hearts and passion, or we're just stupid.
Think very hard about your future. Look beyond the glamour. You paid alot of money so far, yes, but not as much as you may spend in the future. Are you already qualified as a professional in another field? Anything you're interested in? If so, consider that field, make alot of money, and buy an airplane.
I hate to say it; I've been flying too long to change careers. Now, it's what I know. In many ways the military, charter, corporate, and now commercial have provided a mix of experiences good and bad. However, when I have to 'recommend' to a younger person what to 'consider' as a future, I have to provide this perspective.
Here is a task for you. Factor out a responable career where you are paid a reasonable salary over your work years. Then factor out a flight career, with the temp contracts, down turn in economy (furlough), type ratings, etc. Unless you get lucky, it proves my point. There are exceptions. So, please don't give some sort of stupid response that says, "I was hired into an airline with only 150 hrs.....My parents paid for my 120k Euro school, and my dad knew the chief pilot, etc, etc, etc" There are exceptions, both honest, and favored. That's life. What can YOU do? What do YOU want?
If after all these responses, you still want to be a professional pilot, then follow the already great posts presented here. It'll get you through.
Cheers (We all feel, or have felt your pain)
So, you must be tuned in on all these differences between a flight career, and the rest of the working world. Is it fair, hmmmm maybe the pax think so. Is it easy, no. Is it financially smart, NO. So, why do we do it? Either we have big hearts and passion, or we're just stupid.
Think very hard about your future. Look beyond the glamour. You paid alot of money so far, yes, but not as much as you may spend in the future. Are you already qualified as a professional in another field? Anything you're interested in? If so, consider that field, make alot of money, and buy an airplane.
I hate to say it; I've been flying too long to change careers. Now, it's what I know. In many ways the military, charter, corporate, and now commercial have provided a mix of experiences good and bad. However, when I have to 'recommend' to a younger person what to 'consider' as a future, I have to provide this perspective.
Here is a task for you. Factor out a responable career where you are paid a reasonable salary over your work years. Then factor out a flight career, with the temp contracts, down turn in economy (furlough), type ratings, etc. Unless you get lucky, it proves my point. There are exceptions. So, please don't give some sort of stupid response that says, "I was hired into an airline with only 150 hrs.....My parents paid for my 120k Euro school, and my dad knew the chief pilot, etc, etc, etc" There are exceptions, both honest, and favored. That's life. What can YOU do? What do YOU want?
If after all these responses, you still want to be a professional pilot, then follow the already great posts presented here. It'll get you through.
Cheers (We all feel, or have felt your pain)
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shot Over, I read your post and I do agree with you in one sense that the training just to get a CPL or frozen ATPL is rediculous. However I along with most pilots on here have a big heart and deep passion and truely can't imagine anything else to do.
What gets me going is the people who paid for the TR. I guess for me its annoying to think thoes people wanted a job badly enough not to go another way. FI's or GA pilots make small change but the experienced learned is second to none.
If most pilots said go shove it FR, FR would have to bump up its T&C's. That won't happen because most pilots are so desperate for the first job that Ryanair is the most desperate option. And then they get screwed come on here and complain.
What gets me going is the people who paid for the TR. I guess for me its annoying to think thoes people wanted a job badly enough not to go another way. FI's or GA pilots make small change but the experienced learned is second to none.
If most pilots said go shove it FR, FR would have to bump up its T&C's. That won't happen because most pilots are so desperate for the first job that Ryanair is the most desperate option. And then they get screwed come on here and complain.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 141
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With a CPL/IR and 200 hrs you don't need a type rating for the jobs that most suit your experience, when your hours are in tripple figures and you have a few years of real world airmanship under your belt things may look different.....It's like obtaining a yachtsmans certificate and expecting to operate a supertanker......good luck to those with a sensible career plan to their desired employment
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: manchester
Age: 39
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
with regards to finding that first job are people simply refering to stepping into the right hand seat of a big jet or are we talking about any type of flying job here?
what I really want to know is - what about all the other flying jobs out there such as instructing, or taxi work? is competition equally high for these sort of jobs? or like I said are these sort of jobs not considered when refering to achieving that 'first job?'
what I really want to know is - what about all the other flying jobs out there such as instructing, or taxi work? is competition equally high for these sort of jobs? or like I said are these sort of jobs not considered when refering to achieving that 'first job?'
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Anywere
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Confusion
There seem to be a bit of confusion.
PPRUNE is world wide and some people, when they talk they think there is only one country in the world, the one they live in.
In Europe there is not a lot of other things beside Airline-busdriving, and most youths are the only thing the think about.
For those youths I will tell them some of the options: water bombing, fire surveillance, charte, fractional ownership, corporate, air-ambulance, fish spotting, coast-surveillance, sight seeing, aerial mapping, banner towing, agricultural spraying, I am sure I forget some.
NOW there is a ton of jobs out there for the newbies but you have to start THINKING globally since you ARE in a global market.
PPRUNE is world wide and some people, when they talk they think there is only one country in the world, the one they live in.
In Europe there is not a lot of other things beside Airline-busdriving, and most youths are the only thing the think about.
For those youths I will tell them some of the options: water bombing, fire surveillance, charte, fractional ownership, corporate, air-ambulance, fish spotting, coast-surveillance, sight seeing, aerial mapping, banner towing, agricultural spraying, I am sure I forget some.
NOW there is a ton of jobs out there for the newbies but you have to start THINKING globally since you ARE in a global market.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sa
Age: 53
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re Employment
Have you tried standing out from the crowd?? Maybe a bus license with a driver authority NT is your best area to start? Most scenic flight organisations require this..A forklift ticket is also a plus for frieght ops.. Maybe a trade or special skill .. in 6 months you could have achieved all this for a fraction of the 40grand u invested ..and for you wishfulls take my advise..
been there done that !
been there done that !