So where are all the jobs then?
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Exactly how many people come on to pprune "having been screwed over by FR and then moaning about it"? As far as I can see, the only people who are complaining about Ryanair are the people who don't work for them. Having looked at the facts, including talking to many actual Ryanair pilots about pay, conditions etc, I concluded that paying for your own TR at Ryanair would make much better financial sense than accepting a job with Flybe with the TR paid for by the airline. This was in terms of both take home pay and employment prospects after leaving each respective airline after a few years to move on to bigger and better things. Ryanair is not a bad option at all for a first job if you are lucky enough to be able to raise the capital for the TR to begin with.
And as for all those comments about getting air taxi work or FI jobs, this is generaly not what airlines want to see. FI work bares almost no relevance to multi crew airline jobs and air taxi work will give you bad habits. I have seen FIs with a couple of thousand hours under thier belts fail TR courses and guys with air taxi work get told off for having very bad CRM. In short, if you are just out of flying school with only a few hundred hours, go for an airline job, even if you have to pay for a type rating. It isn't nice, but this is the world we are living in now.
And as for all those comments about getting air taxi work or FI jobs, this is generaly not what airlines want to see. FI work bares almost no relevance to multi crew airline jobs and air taxi work will give you bad habits. I have seen FIs with a couple of thousand hours under thier belts fail TR courses and guys with air taxi work get told off for having very bad CRM. In short, if you are just out of flying school with only a few hundred hours, go for an airline job, even if you have to pay for a type rating. It isn't nice, but this is the world we are living in now.
Educated Hillbilly
Just want to add something positive to this, but as for the comments that airlines don't want FIs. Well in the last three months I have been invited to five airline interviews/assessments. Background FI with 800+ hours. Start the new job in the new year.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 18th Dec 2007 at 15:30.
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Obviously your airlines HR department are only interested in people like yourself who are prepared to pay their way into this industry. Your biased views of instructors and air taxi pilots are way wide of the mark. You make comments about 'bad habits' and 'bad crm', were you fed this info whilst having your wallet willingly jammed open by your fabulous employer? And how does flying around in your blue 737 make you better than the next chap eh? 
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scratchingthesky, in what capacity do you work for your airline? I would put money on you not being a pilot.
Have just under 300hrs and am in the middle of a multi crew type rating myself. The aircraft handles completely different to a light aircraft. The type of flying and the things I am learning are so different form any single pilot flying I have done before that I fail to see how another 700hrs in a cessna 152 would be of any use whatsoever.
If an airline does put a 1000hrs minimum requirement on its recruits then it can only be useful in terms of acting as a filter to cut down the amount of CVs to be read.
When it comes to multicrew flying in a large aircraft, to say that a 200 hr guy is more of a risk than a guy with 1000hrs in a C152 or other light aircraft is wrong in my opinion.
Have just under 300hrs and am in the middle of a multi crew type rating myself. The aircraft handles completely different to a light aircraft. The type of flying and the things I am learning are so different form any single pilot flying I have done before that I fail to see how another 700hrs in a cessna 152 would be of any use whatsoever.
If an airline does put a 1000hrs minimum requirement on its recruits then it can only be useful in terms of acting as a filter to cut down the amount of CVs to be read.
When it comes to multicrew flying in a large aircraft, to say that a 200 hr guy is more of a risk than a guy with 1000hrs in a C152 or other light aircraft is wrong in my opinion.
As well as filtering out alot of CVs, the 500/750/1000 TT requirement that a few airlines now have enable you to move to the LHS quicker which is in the ineterest of the employer as this reduces the need for DECs.
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I will tell you that I both fly and have been involved in groundschool training new pilots for airline. The ones with zero experience like yourself raggamuffin, with the odd exception ofcourse, tend to struggle more than the ones with three times the experience. The fact of 200hr wannabees being more of a training risk is sad but true nevertheless.
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How does one get's a job in Canada as a heli pilot?
I finished my school, and traveled thorugh all the Alberta and B.C., knocked on every door, and all they tell me is they have no use for me.
I mean what do I have to do.
I am thinking of somehow getting myself a FAA licence to go to US and try to find something there in instructing. Here in Canada it's impossible to get the difference between the 100hrs you finish and 250hrs for instructing. Not that you would find any job with that many hours as an instructor anyway.
What would you do if you where me? Include everything, even going to Europe.
I finished my school, and traveled thorugh all the Alberta and B.C., knocked on every door, and all they tell me is they have no use for me.
I mean what do I have to do.
I am thinking of somehow getting myself a FAA licence to go to US and try to find something there in instructing. Here in Canada it's impossible to get the difference between the 100hrs you finish and 250hrs for instructing. Not that you would find any job with that many hours as an instructor anyway.
What would you do if you where me? Include everything, even going to Europe.
BA doesn't seem to think that there's a training risk involved with putting 200 hr ab-initios straight on to a jet type-rating!
Educated Hillbilly
Further to Parson comments about time to command, remember in the corporate and night freight sector the hours flown per year can be quite low (ie: 200 to 300 per year), therefore low houred pilots are rarely employed because it simple takes too long for them to unfreeze the ATPL. Or this will limit the number of low houred pilots that can be employed due to the need to
keep a flow of pilots ready to take command within a few years.
The other factor is insurance policies, especially in the corporate sector, where the insurance company may specifiy minimum hours for crews.
So I will to an extent accept the comment that FI hours are not that relevant to airline flying, but the key thing is instructing does help develop spare capacity when flying, which is always useful. The other thing is instructing at the right location (ie: an airfield which has commercial operators based there) means that you don't have to make an effort to network, you will by default just meat people involved in commercial flying as a daily occurence. I will admit, flying instruction isn't a quick route to a job but it is a very enjoyable, also the more interesting jobs in the industry are certainly ones you can get with 700+ hours in the logbook.
keep a flow of pilots ready to take command within a few years.
The other factor is insurance policies, especially in the corporate sector, where the insurance company may specifiy minimum hours for crews.
So I will to an extent accept the comment that FI hours are not that relevant to airline flying, but the key thing is instructing does help develop spare capacity when flying, which is always useful. The other thing is instructing at the right location (ie: an airfield which has commercial operators based there) means that you don't have to make an effort to network, you will by default just meat people involved in commercial flying as a daily occurence. I will admit, flying instruction isn't a quick route to a job but it is a very enjoyable, also the more interesting jobs in the industry are certainly ones you can get with 700+ hours in the logbook.
Educated Hillbilly
BA only take a very small number of low houred pilots from the integrated courses at Oxford and Jerez via a recommendation system, it is not a significant number. For those us that didn't do integraeted course then 500 hours multi crew time is required.
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I have just worked my way through all 15 pages of this thread! It makes interesting reading and has moved in different directions from page 1 to page 15.
I just thought I'd add my two penneth to the debate!
Flying is a bit like gambling..................highly addictive! However I would say that just like gambling, DON'T GAMBLE MORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE!
This industry is no different from any other one. No one owes you a job or a living. You take chances, take calculated risks and hope that it will all come good in the end.
Regarding the matter of paying for your own type rating, my view is it's your money, your choice but it won't guarantee you a job. As for becoming a flying instructor, my only worry here is that if everybody becomes an instructor then there is a real risk of having not enough students to teach!
The whole debate of 200 hr pilots versus 1000 hr pilots will go on for ever, it really depends on the recruitment policy of the company you wish to apply for quite frankly. Personally I do think that hours matter, the more you have the closer you are to command.
My story? At 41 I decided to study for my CPL. Qualified at the end of 1999 (self improver) and became an instructor in the spring of 2000. After 3 1/2 years instructing I got my first job with an air taxi operator and spent a year flying piston twins. After a couple of years break from commercial aviation I am now a T.P Captain and loving every single minute of it! I must confess that there were many occasions that I simply felt like giving up. It was a few years of hard work and sacrifice (still bringing up 2 children) but with the help and support of my wife, I got there in the end!
So if you are new to this caper or still trying to 'get that first job' I say take heart, you are not alone, we have all 'been there'. I also suggest that you try and be pragmatic and as flexible as possible. Your decision to fly for a living is a personal choice, no one is holding your arm behind your back and forcing you to do this. Simply wanting a job does not mean that you are automatically entitled to one! Do what ever you feel will help your cause, read these forums by all means, take whatever advice you feel is relevant to you. Just remember that we all have different views and opinions, everyone has an 'agenda' when they post here.
To finish up, I would probably not have entered this industry had I really known how tough it can be. But now I am here I would not trade it for anything else. I look forward to my work everyday and can not believe my luck, they pay me to fly!
Good luck guys
I just thought I'd add my two penneth to the debate!
Flying is a bit like gambling..................highly addictive! However I would say that just like gambling, DON'T GAMBLE MORE THAN YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE!
This industry is no different from any other one. No one owes you a job or a living. You take chances, take calculated risks and hope that it will all come good in the end.
Regarding the matter of paying for your own type rating, my view is it's your money, your choice but it won't guarantee you a job. As for becoming a flying instructor, my only worry here is that if everybody becomes an instructor then there is a real risk of having not enough students to teach!
The whole debate of 200 hr pilots versus 1000 hr pilots will go on for ever, it really depends on the recruitment policy of the company you wish to apply for quite frankly. Personally I do think that hours matter, the more you have the closer you are to command.
My story? At 41 I decided to study for my CPL. Qualified at the end of 1999 (self improver) and became an instructor in the spring of 2000. After 3 1/2 years instructing I got my first job with an air taxi operator and spent a year flying piston twins. After a couple of years break from commercial aviation I am now a T.P Captain and loving every single minute of it! I must confess that there were many occasions that I simply felt like giving up. It was a few years of hard work and sacrifice (still bringing up 2 children) but with the help and support of my wife, I got there in the end!
So if you are new to this caper or still trying to 'get that first job' I say take heart, you are not alone, we have all 'been there'. I also suggest that you try and be pragmatic and as flexible as possible. Your decision to fly for a living is a personal choice, no one is holding your arm behind your back and forcing you to do this. Simply wanting a job does not mean that you are automatically entitled to one! Do what ever you feel will help your cause, read these forums by all means, take whatever advice you feel is relevant to you. Just remember that we all have different views and opinions, everyone has an 'agenda' when they post here.
To finish up, I would probably not have entered this industry had I really known how tough it can be. But now I am here I would not trade it for anything else. I look forward to my work everyday and can not believe my luck, they pay me to fly!
Good luck guys
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Usedtofly, that's quite inspirational to say the least but above all exhibits what many wannabes fail to see.... Not the "I started here" nor the "and ended up here" but all of the practical aspects in between. It really does seem somewhat essential to maintain a level headed opinion of both where you are at any stage of your aviation and career and where you're heading. If you make steady and meaningful progress then slowly but surely your chances improve of moving onto the next chapter. Perhaps that indicative of aviation where it's a game of simply improving your chances and not expecting a sure fire win-win scenario. If more people approached matters from this perspective rather than the zero-to-hero notion then we'd be in better shape.
While I'm on the subject another missing if not vital component of the flight training and aviation landscape here in JAA land is the absence of mentoring. By this I mean the old and wise guy who you'd come across on the weekend at the local airport who knows a thing or two about this game. That kind of "hold on there son", "steady" and other expressions of caution from time to time can really help guide so many wannabes. Such wise words could help dispel mythical notions or at least remove the blinkered view that many trying to enter the industry have of following a single track and missing other opportunities whilst moving along. Instead the closest we have to this is the nice and cuddly instructor types who though might mean well are usually too young to have the relevant experience or competing within the same industry anyway. In places like the USA where they have a much larger and embedded GA scene you'd come across these types left, right and centre. Anyway just a thought.... have a nice day
While I'm on the subject another missing if not vital component of the flight training and aviation landscape here in JAA land is the absence of mentoring. By this I mean the old and wise guy who you'd come across on the weekend at the local airport who knows a thing or two about this game. That kind of "hold on there son", "steady" and other expressions of caution from time to time can really help guide so many wannabes. Such wise words could help dispel mythical notions or at least remove the blinkered view that many trying to enter the industry have of following a single track and missing other opportunities whilst moving along. Instead the closest we have to this is the nice and cuddly instructor types who though might mean well are usually too young to have the relevant experience or competing within the same industry anyway. In places like the USA where they have a much larger and embedded GA scene you'd come across these types left, right and centre. Anyway just a thought.... have a nice day
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What I would say on the 200/1000 hrs debate is that there is a big difference between handling a jet and a light twin/single. The 200 hrs guys may be more of a training risk, but in my opinion how successful someone will be in a TR is dependent a lot on personal ability. If you are good at multi tasking, have a large mental capacity, are a good manager and can learn new things quickly then you will have much better chances of completing a TR successfully. This goes for anyone starting on a jet for the first time, at the end of the day you are learning a lot of new things, and a relatively small proportion of the flying is done manually. The same goes for age. I know of a few airlines who do not like to take pilots over 30 without previous multi crew experience. I think this is unfair as in my experience it doesn't generally make much difference.
A good thing to have before attempting a TR for the first time is a JOC course. That way you are not completely thrown into the deep end and it will get you used to using the autopilot effectively.
A good thing to have before attempting a TR for the first time is a JOC course. That way you are not completely thrown into the deep end and it will get you used to using the autopilot effectively.
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There are many people that I know of who have completed jet type ratings with 200 hrs without an issue. It really is a matter of individual ability, nothing hard about it, you just need the ability to learn.
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There are many people that I know of who have completed jet type ratings with 200 hrs without an issue. It really is a matter of individual ability, nothing hard about it, you just need the ability to learn.
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Well if you thought flight training was going to be cheap........ Anyway, its not about money, many low houred guys at my employer on a bond for their rating, no extra outlay for that "easy pass" 
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MAB, that's not an insult to flight training, I actually knew how expensive it would be. Trust me; I'm not complaining about that, if you read my post and interprited what I was trying to say; that "easy pass" is one that relates to an SSTR at FR.