Cathay Pacific imploding.
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I know of two ex-Cathay 747 pilots who got a personal call from TB to ask them to come back, on fleet of choice. I don't know how many in total received this offer, but I know 100 % these two have.And it makes sense. As usual, Cathay FOP is purely cost driven. We have demand on two fleets and no demand on the third fleet which nobody wants anyway.
How convenient.
How convenient.
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No, line captains. Just have a look at the seniority list.
On the original topic of a looming "implosion" of Cathay, an interesting comment in the SCMP today, Looks like a lot of political will at force to increase HKIA revenue in the light of the expansion..
Lavinia Lau Hoi-zee, the chairwoman of the Board of Airline Representatives of Hong Kong and also a Cathay Pacific Airways executive, said the single biggest obstacle to the Post-Covid recovery of airlines’ full capacity was labour shortages at the airport and about 20 per cent of the group’s 72 members had yet to resume flights to Hong Kong.
Hong Kong authorities have approved 98 per cent of nearly 2,900 applications from non-local aviation workers under a pilot scheme to import labour to ease a manpower shortage in the industry.
Among the 10 job categories under the scheme, passenger services officers, ramp services agents, and aircraft maintenance mechanics or technicians took up more than half of the approved application
On the original topic of a looming "implosion" of Cathay, an interesting comment in the SCMP today, Looks like a lot of political will at force to increase HKIA revenue in the light of the expansion..
Lavinia Lau Hoi-zee, the chairwoman of the Board of Airline Representatives of Hong Kong and also a Cathay Pacific Airways executive, said the single biggest obstacle to the Post-Covid recovery of airlines’ full capacity was labour shortages at the airport and about 20 per cent of the group’s 72 members had yet to resume flights to Hong Kong.
Hong Kong authorities have approved 98 per cent of nearly 2,900 applications from non-local aviation workers under a pilot scheme to import labour to ease a manpower shortage in the industry.
Among the 10 job categories under the scheme, passenger services officers, ramp services agents, and aircraft maintenance mechanics or technicians took up more than half of the approved application
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Cx management made the bet they could sh!t on their people and not pay the price. Obviously they made the wrong bet. Just like the wrong bet they made a few years ago with the fuel hedging debacle costing cx several billion dollars. Was that the moment of no return? Did they then decide that the only way to survive after that mega massive loss was to gut staff compensation with pilots being the ones with the biggest targets on the figurative compensation backs? Did the non-airline top managers of cathay not understand this staff group can't be easily or quickly replaced?
It's business 101 that in order to gain or hold brand loyalty, you must first have staff loyalty. Cathay has zero staff loyalty. Not just among pilots, but among all others. They can't get anyone to want to work for cathay despite over a year of active recruiting efforts. The only ones who are staying for now are the desparates who don't have any other options out there. How much staff loyalty do you think they have? After leaving cathay I'm now working at an airline that Dwarfs the size of what cathay once was. The quality of pilots we had at Cathay was so much higher it's not even comparable. It's a mild sh!t show in comparison. Lots of ex-cathay pilots where I am now and others around who had no intention of leaving cathay until... . Experience and skill levels previously routinely present on cathay flight decks is never going to be replaced by hiring questionable pilots or cadets. A percentage of those who will end up staying due to not having other choices will have the previous levels but that will only be a small percentage.
For those who claim cx can just hire locals to replace the expats they have lost and are still losing, don't leave out the fact that even if they hired all 2000+ pilots they currently lack locally today, these would need to spend the next couple of years in training before they qualify as only second officers to fill a seat only at cruise. Then another couple of years and more training to become junior first officers, etc. To replace an experienced first officer with a locally hired cadet it would take many years. To replace a captain, many many years. What happens to cathay's market share during this time? That market share has been on open sale for some time now. Foreign carriers have been offered deep discounts on landing fees by hk government. Let's remember cx market share now includes that of cathay dragon. To gain previous number of pilots and other staff to re-establish the previous market share, they have to hire those numbers too. So it's not just the 2000 pilots needed to re-staff cathay's pilot ranks, it's the full number of pilots cathay dragon had to operate that part of the market share too.
Capitalism without a leash around it's neck. Anything goes for business in the name of profits. A company can do whatever it likes to it's employees in hk. There's no concept of wrongful termination in hk labor law as we were told by HKAOA lawyers.
There's a very fitting expression that says "give any one species too much rope and they'll fukk it up". Cathay had no limit on how much rope when it came to what they could do with their employees and the result is what we have now. They can't even attract enough people let alone being picky about who they hire. Selection process? What selection process? They can't even get their hands on enough applications to staff the airline past 50% in all departments if they hired every single applicant.
Cathay is up a nasty sh!t creek of it's own making and its well deserved.
But HK in general is up a sh!t creek of it's own making also for the same reasons and its also well deserved. No accountibility of decision makers. Did they really think doing crazy for a couple of years would mean anything but disaster for the economy for a very long time? If not permanently clipping hk economy. No accountability and all the rope they wanted. Result is always the same.
It's business 101 that in order to gain or hold brand loyalty, you must first have staff loyalty. Cathay has zero staff loyalty. Not just among pilots, but among all others. They can't get anyone to want to work for cathay despite over a year of active recruiting efforts. The only ones who are staying for now are the desparates who don't have any other options out there. How much staff loyalty do you think they have? After leaving cathay I'm now working at an airline that Dwarfs the size of what cathay once was. The quality of pilots we had at Cathay was so much higher it's not even comparable. It's a mild sh!t show in comparison. Lots of ex-cathay pilots where I am now and others around who had no intention of leaving cathay until... . Experience and skill levels previously routinely present on cathay flight decks is never going to be replaced by hiring questionable pilots or cadets. A percentage of those who will end up staying due to not having other choices will have the previous levels but that will only be a small percentage.
For those who claim cx can just hire locals to replace the expats they have lost and are still losing, don't leave out the fact that even if they hired all 2000+ pilots they currently lack locally today, these would need to spend the next couple of years in training before they qualify as only second officers to fill a seat only at cruise. Then another couple of years and more training to become junior first officers, etc. To replace an experienced first officer with a locally hired cadet it would take many years. To replace a captain, many many years. What happens to cathay's market share during this time? That market share has been on open sale for some time now. Foreign carriers have been offered deep discounts on landing fees by hk government. Let's remember cx market share now includes that of cathay dragon. To gain previous number of pilots and other staff to re-establish the previous market share, they have to hire those numbers too. So it's not just the 2000 pilots needed to re-staff cathay's pilot ranks, it's the full number of pilots cathay dragon had to operate that part of the market share too.
Capitalism without a leash around it's neck. Anything goes for business in the name of profits. A company can do whatever it likes to it's employees in hk. There's no concept of wrongful termination in hk labor law as we were told by HKAOA lawyers.
There's a very fitting expression that says "give any one species too much rope and they'll fukk it up". Cathay had no limit on how much rope when it came to what they could do with their employees and the result is what we have now. They can't even attract enough people let alone being picky about who they hire. Selection process? What selection process? They can't even get their hands on enough applications to staff the airline past 50% in all departments if they hired every single applicant.
Cathay is up a nasty sh!t creek of it's own making and its well deserved.
But HK in general is up a sh!t creek of it's own making also for the same reasons and its also well deserved. No accountibility of decision makers. Did they really think doing crazy for a couple of years would mean anything but disaster for the economy for a very long time? If not permanently clipping hk economy. No accountability and all the rope they wanted. Result is always the same.
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No, line captains. Just have a look at the seniority list.
On the original topic of a looming "implosion" of Cathay, an interesting comment in the SCMP today, Looks like a lot of political will at force to increase HKIA revenue in the light of the expansion..
Lavinia Lau Hoi-zee, the chairwoman of the Board of Airline Representatives of Hong Kong and also a Cathay Pacific Airways executive, said the single biggest obstacle to the Post-Covid recovery of airlines’ full capacity was labour shortages at the airport and about 20 per cent of the group’s 72 members had yet to resume flights to Hong Kong.
Hong Kong authorities have approved 98 per cent of nearly 2,900 applications from non-local aviation workers under a pilot scheme to import labour to ease a manpower shortage in the industry.
Among the 10 job categories under the scheme, passenger services officers, ramp services agents, and aircraft maintenance mechanics or technicians took up more than half of the approved application
On the original topic of a looming "implosion" of Cathay, an interesting comment in the SCMP today, Looks like a lot of political will at force to increase HKIA revenue in the light of the expansion..
Lavinia Lau Hoi-zee, the chairwoman of the Board of Airline Representatives of Hong Kong and also a Cathay Pacific Airways executive, said the single biggest obstacle to the Post-Covid recovery of airlines’ full capacity was labour shortages at the airport and about 20 per cent of the group’s 72 members had yet to resume flights to Hong Kong.
Hong Kong authorities have approved 98 per cent of nearly 2,900 applications from non-local aviation workers under a pilot scheme to import labour to ease a manpower shortage in the industry.
Among the 10 job categories under the scheme, passenger services officers, ramp services agents, and aircraft maintenance mechanics or technicians took up more than half of the approved application
The 80% IATA Use-it-or-lose-rule has been waived for several seasons already. The expectation was that things would start picking up and they would have to hand them back this coming Winter season if not flown. I suspect it will get waived again because HKIA ops are down the toilet now.
That third runway could well be the most expensive white elephant in history at 140 billion HKD and counting.
If memory serves Dubai's expansion was to make it the Riveria of the Middle East and a new business hub of the world. The way things are in Hong Kong they could not have done more if it was planned.
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In my ( totally biased) opinion, HKIA will show impressive traffic figures for the next decade and will outgrow DXB.
Four reasons:
1) Competition. Saudia/Ryad and Indian airlines will enter the market. Huge investments on the way, the new airport in Delhi and expansion in Ryad will enable to offer a very similar product, as does Qatar and Turkish already. No hinterland,a too small catchment area of Dubai does not really offer any other growth other than transfers. But the new competition will compete in tourism and finance/business travel as well, if you have only artificial attractions, then anybody can copy it. A mall or man-made beach looks just the same in Ryad, Abu Dhabi or Doha. Finance institutions might prefer Ryad in the future, more capital ( biggest IPO ever) and gigantic investments in new cities in the region (The Line etc).
2) HKIA expansion. It will make it one of the most efficient and modern airports in the world. Shopping/Restaurants/ Asia Expo will offer a world class product.
3) Technology. New aircraft types will offer more and more direct and longer range flights. No stopover required. The A380 on the other side is well beyond its technological peak, it will become increasingly inefficient.
4)Greater Bay integration. High speed train and ferry connections will make HKIA more attractive as a final
destination in the future. The integration with the mainland will intensify, supported by a Pro-Beijing gov, and offer new business and growth opportunities. Hong Kong will be the finance and corporate center of the South of China, and HKIA the main gate.
Four reasons:
1) Competition. Saudia/Ryad and Indian airlines will enter the market. Huge investments on the way, the new airport in Delhi and expansion in Ryad will enable to offer a very similar product, as does Qatar and Turkish already. No hinterland,a too small catchment area of Dubai does not really offer any other growth other than transfers. But the new competition will compete in tourism and finance/business travel as well, if you have only artificial attractions, then anybody can copy it. A mall or man-made beach looks just the same in Ryad, Abu Dhabi or Doha. Finance institutions might prefer Ryad in the future, more capital ( biggest IPO ever) and gigantic investments in new cities in the region (The Line etc).
2) HKIA expansion. It will make it one of the most efficient and modern airports in the world. Shopping/Restaurants/ Asia Expo will offer a world class product.
3) Technology. New aircraft types will offer more and more direct and longer range flights. No stopover required. The A380 on the other side is well beyond its technological peak, it will become increasingly inefficient.
4)Greater Bay integration. High speed train and ferry connections will make HKIA more attractive as a final
destination in the future. The integration with the mainland will intensify, supported by a Pro-Beijing gov, and offer new business and growth opportunities. Hong Kong will be the finance and corporate center of the South of China, and HKIA the main gate.
Last edited by corporal klinger; 16th Aug 2023 at 08:58.
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VforVENDETTA,
If you ever want your opinion to be taken seriously, then at least get your facts remotely correct.
Management have said they want to be at 70% of 2019 CX/KA capacity by the end of 2023 and 100% by the end of 2024. The CX/KA fleet has been reduced by 10%, which has been fully replaced by the HKE fleet and crew which is already at 100%. Therefore CX crew numbers need to be at 60% and then 90% of 2019 numbers.
At its peak in 2019 CX/KA had a combined 3,850 crew. For CX to meet its Dec 2023 target it requires 2,300 crew. 100 LESS than it currently has. Admittedly the crew are not ideally distributed in terms of ranks and fleets, but a 100 excess is a lot different to your 2,000+ shortage. Yes, there’s some work to be done in 2024 obviously. But with their weak, compliant workforce it’s not a ludicrous aim.
As for those that remain or returning having no choice, that is ludicrous. Why are you at your current airline? Why are you an airline pilot at all? It’s not because you don’t have a choice. It’s because it’s the best choice available to you based on your current wants and needs, your family’s wants and needs, with a compromise between the short term and long term. The golden handcuffs at all airlines are long gone.
In 1993 when CX introduced B scale, the A scalers claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
In 2001 following the 49ers it was claimed the lack of a meaningful contract would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
When expat conditions were removed for new hires in 2009 it was claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards?
When a productivity contract was introduced in 2018 it was claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
Which generation of hiring issues and reduced standards did you fall into?
I’m no apologist for management. They are appalling, but consistently so. The real problem with CX FOP is the pilot body which has reached a new low of unquestionable servitude. The “majority GC” who are so brave in their fight against the militant HKAOA chairman they couldn’t name themselves or even sign their own letter are the poster child of the current weakness.
If you ever want your opinion to be taken seriously, then at least get your facts remotely correct.
Management have said they want to be at 70% of 2019 CX/KA capacity by the end of 2023 and 100% by the end of 2024. The CX/KA fleet has been reduced by 10%, which has been fully replaced by the HKE fleet and crew which is already at 100%. Therefore CX crew numbers need to be at 60% and then 90% of 2019 numbers.
At its peak in 2019 CX/KA had a combined 3,850 crew. For CX to meet its Dec 2023 target it requires 2,300 crew. 100 LESS than it currently has. Admittedly the crew are not ideally distributed in terms of ranks and fleets, but a 100 excess is a lot different to your 2,000+ shortage. Yes, there’s some work to be done in 2024 obviously. But with their weak, compliant workforce it’s not a ludicrous aim.
As for those that remain or returning having no choice, that is ludicrous. Why are you at your current airline? Why are you an airline pilot at all? It’s not because you don’t have a choice. It’s because it’s the best choice available to you based on your current wants and needs, your family’s wants and needs, with a compromise between the short term and long term. The golden handcuffs at all airlines are long gone.
In 1993 when CX introduced B scale, the A scalers claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
In 2001 following the 49ers it was claimed the lack of a meaningful contract would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
When expat conditions were removed for new hires in 2009 it was claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards?
When a productivity contract was introduced in 2018 it was claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
Which generation of hiring issues and reduced standards did you fall into?
I’m no apologist for management. They are appalling, but consistently so. The real problem with CX FOP is the pilot body which has reached a new low of unquestionable servitude. The “majority GC” who are so brave in their fight against the militant HKAOA chairman they couldn’t name themselves or even sign their own letter are the poster child of the current weakness.
Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 16th Aug 2023 at 08:34.
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PW, while I agree with your analysis of the repeated and unfulfilled prophecies of shortages and standard issues, surprisingly you can't see the same analogy when it comes to the assessment of character.
Would you not agree that past union "actions' have always been pitiful / borderline ridiculous? Training ban, ban of union membership, not working on G days or answering the phone? You could not make that nonsense up. What happened after the 49ers got laid off? Did the rest unite in solidarity and go on strike? I am here 20+ years and I have never seen any meaningful strategy, any real resistance, any willingness to risk anything substantial. Have you?
Would you not agree that past union "actions' have always been pitiful / borderline ridiculous? Training ban, ban of union membership, not working on G days or answering the phone? You could not make that nonsense up. What happened after the 49ers got laid off? Did the rest unite in solidarity and go on strike? I am here 20+ years and I have never seen any meaningful strategy, any real resistance, any willingness to risk anything substantial. Have you?
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You would think that after 20+ years you would be able to come up with some good ideas yourself.
That’s if you’re interested in anything else than shouting criticism from the sidelines and defeatist propaganda.
That’s if you’re interested in anything else than shouting criticism from the sidelines and defeatist propaganda.
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Piet, you can't possibly ask me to bring forward ideas for a cause I over and over said I don't regard as realistic. That is absurd. You can call my perspective "defeatist" if it helps you or makes you feel morally superior. I don't care, but to demand I should come forward with ideas to support your argument is preposterous. I am not shouting from the sidelines, I don't demand anything from anybody, I don't say I am better or smarter, I said remainers are not worse than previous generations.See the difference? Jesus, at least read and think before you go on your usual rant against me. What is wrong with you, man? Get some closure, do yoga or pottery, anything, your obsession with me is really getting out of hand.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 17th Aug 2023 at 07:11.
Cathay Pacific imploding
Well Sam, I think your posts are articulate and reasoned and make for informative, often entertaining reading. It is one of the reasons I still "lurk" around Fragrant Harbour despite the singular criticism from a singular opponent fired up by something weird in the past.
Did you keep getting A plusses ? Kept getting all the chicks ? kept turning down offers from Hollywood ? You know, deep stuff like that ; often highly irritating to lessers.
Let your stalker go and continue the smashing contributions to very interesting debate and development in a once, highly sought after region and Company.
Did you keep getting A plusses ? Kept getting all the chicks ? kept turning down offers from Hollywood ? You know, deep stuff like that ; often highly irritating to lessers.
Let your stalker go and continue the smashing contributions to very interesting debate and development in a once, highly sought after region and Company.
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PW, while I agree with your analysis of the repeated and unfulfilled prophecies of shortages and standard issues, surprisingly you can't see the same analogy when it comes to the assessment of character.
Would you not agree that past union "actions' have always been pitiful / borderline ridiculous? Training ban, ban of union membership, not working on G days or answering the phone? You could not make that nonsense up. What happened after the 49ers got laid off? Did the rest unite in solidarity and go on strike? I am here 20+ years and I have never seen any meaningful strategy, any real resistance, any willingness to risk anything substantial. Have you?
Would you not agree that past union "actions' have always been pitiful / borderline ridiculous? Training ban, ban of union membership, not working on G days or answering the phone? You could not make that nonsense up. What happened after the 49ers got laid off? Did the rest unite in solidarity and go on strike? I am here 20+ years and I have never seen any meaningful strategy, any real resistance, any willingness to risk anything substantial. Have you?
ZB,
I’m not saying you’re wrong regarding deteriorating standards. Maybe the A scalers were right 30 years ago with their concerns about hiring GA pilots. We now have conscript trainers from a GA background teaching cadets using a reduced syllabus of training. Certainly an interesting experiment. Beyond my pay grade how that ultimately affects the future of the airline. (Btw, who is the FOP Risk Manager since Pete left?) Are FDAP hard landings spiking that much compared to other eras? It’s there for all to see. As for CFIT, the habitual GPWS offenders were a few former A scale trainers, and they’ve left.
Don’t get me wrong. I do think the company at some stage next year will have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to expand at the rate senior management are telling the market. Between now and the end of 2024 they’ll have to increase the crew numbers by 60 a month with attrition running at a record high (covid years exempted). Considering expansion so far in 2023 is running at 6 a month then that’s going to be quite a trick that STW and his subservient trainers will have to pull off. A mere 1000% increase on the current expansion rate.
One rabbit management are trying to make appear is the annual AFTL flying limit of 900 hours being increased to 1,000 hours. HKAPLA have been successful to date in preventing our lives being any more fatiguing than they already are. As for those of you who see 1,000 hours as a potential pay rise, you’re no student of recent history. The moment management calculated the 747 crew would possibly increase their monthly hours, the company increased the threshold at which MPP kicked in, then lowered the MPP hourly rate. You’ll be told this isn’t a pay cut, you’ll just have to work harder to achieve the same pay. It’ll be interesting to see if the HK Labor Tribunal thinks management are in breach of the Employment Ordinance during the upcoming case.
Fortunately for everyone here, any wins HKALPA/HKAOA has are enjoyed by all crew.
Members and scabs alike.
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Any information about actual condictions at Cathay
I read a lot of comments here but nothing factual. Can someone with full knowledge of the facts share what are the actual work condictions at Cathay for new hire FO, any insight
would be highly appreciate.
would be highly appreciate.
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The problem is that we recently got hit by a a decline in T&C, the absolute numbers are not yet digested. So in due course a lot of people will tell you how stupid or naive you are to even look at Cathay ( ironically mostly from people still working there).
In a nutshell, whether you like it in HK/ CX or not depends on your individual circumstances. Single or with an employable partner, interested in a life in Asia on one side of the spectrum, with a bored housewife and three kids in western private schools on the other. You can expect about 2-3 times European LCC salaries, but living costs are ( probably, but not necessarily) higher too. Your personal situation will determine how much you spend, save, travel, miss home /enjoy it here. There is no objective answer, it really depends, Do your own research, come for a few days with open eyes and see for yourself. Forget what others say, it's meaningless.
In a nutshell, whether you like it in HK/ CX or not depends on your individual circumstances. Single or with an employable partner, interested in a life in Asia on one side of the spectrum, with a bored housewife and three kids in western private schools on the other. You can expect about 2-3 times European LCC salaries, but living costs are ( probably, but not necessarily) higher too. Your personal situation will determine how much you spend, save, travel, miss home /enjoy it here. There is no objective answer, it really depends, Do your own research, come for a few days with open eyes and see for yourself. Forget what others say, it's meaningless.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 10th Oct 2023 at 14:56.
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Indeed! What others say is meaningless, especially the one above.
If you complain about cx and you still work there, you'll be marked a hypocrite.
If you complain about cx and you have resigned, you need to move on and stop your whining.
Or even better: you'll be falsely accused of secretly having rejoined and being a hypocrite.
If you complain about cx and you still work there, you'll be marked a hypocrite.
If you complain about cx and you have resigned, you need to move on and stop your whining.
Or even better: you'll be falsely accused of secretly having rejoined and being a hypocrite.
Some maths. Takes away the emotion. Since the contract was removed and replaced by an amenable hand book of not many pages at all. (pages equal protections basically)
46% of the pilots have decided to leave. Less than 2% have returned. Not including the pilots involved in the diabolical mess that was the termination of Dragon.
Look up "Quiet Quitting", suspect it's rampant in those who have stayed.
46% of the pilots have decided to leave. Less than 2% have returned. Not including the pilots involved in the diabolical mess that was the termination of Dragon.
Look up "Quiet Quitting", suspect it's rampant in those who have stayed.
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“Forget what others say, it's meaningless”
Solid advice. Don’t ask people who actually work and live here, they know nothing! Do your own research with the figures the company give you, it will surely be the most accurate info.
Solid advice. Don’t ask people who actually work and live here, they know nothing! Do your own research with the figures the company give you, it will surely be the most accurate info.
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That is not how I meant it for what it's worth. It all depends on personal preferences and the individual situation.
Why this is so hard to accept will remain an eternal mystery to me.
Why this is so hard to accept will remain an eternal mystery to me.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 11th Oct 2023 at 07:53.