Cathay Pacific imploding.
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents, i'm not sure what you're all on about saying there are no jobs and there's no shortage. The simple reality is, there is a shortage, globally, period. Whether it's a "shortage" of experienced pilots, is irrelevant. There are seats to be filled, that aren't being filled. Left or right, does not matter. All the ME3 airlines continue to hire like crazy, and without having to read pprune, I have first hand accounts from several ME3 pilots who tell me there are not enough pilots to keep up with the renowned demand since the recovery has started from covid.
Oasis hit the nail on the head perfectly. Airlines will start hiring, and will lower requirements before they will pay, and then if they can't get locals, they'll find a way to attract talent from abroad. Step 3 all depends on the country, it's easier in some to bring in foreign talent then in others.
........
Times are changing, whether some of you want to believe there is a shortage or not is up to you, but it does exist, and it is a global phenomena more or less
Oasis hit the nail on the head perfectly. Airlines will start hiring, and will lower requirements before they will pay, and then if they can't get locals, they'll find a way to attract talent from abroad. Step 3 all depends on the country, it's easier in some to bring in foreign talent then in others.
........
Times are changing, whether some of you want to believe there is a shortage or not is up to you, but it does exist, and it is a global phenomena more or less
But once again - this is an "artificial" shortage, promoted by strict immigration rules and the pilots unions in the US. If the "shortage" would seriously endanger the business of US-carriers, they would already have asked Washington to easen Green Card-requirements for pilots. With the given T&Cs, I could imagine myself applying there, even commuting from Europe.
And Europe (once again: Europe, not US/UK!) doesn't reflect that. Yes, there are now jobs, however there are still closures (i.e. due to sanctions against Russia) and cutbacks like at SAS or last years TUI Airlines (massive layoffs), which help other airlines fill their vacancies. As Oasis said, it will take a long run, before this affects T&Cs. And neither Lufthansa, nor Air France and others are offering DEC-opportunities, and they never will, as unions keep an eye on that.
A good summary is this post from last year (NetJets): pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/642679-netjets-europe-hiring-again-20.html?ispreloading=1#post11242083
It might be 1 year old, but basically the situation hasn't much changed till now, except that there are more (low paid) vacancies.
Last edited by Memphis Hubert; 7th Aug 2023 at 10:56.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Earth
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For me, I didn't say there is no shortage. I just tried to separate between continents, countries and markets. I fully agree with the reports from the US, I've got friends there and needless to say, why the big legacy carriers there are offering fantastic salaries, being 3x as much as the highest salary with European legacy carriers.
But once again - this is an "artificial" shortage, promoted by strict immigration rules and the pilots unions in the US. If the "shortage" would seriously endanger the business of US-carriers, they would already have asked Washington to easen Green Card-requirements for pilots. With the given T&Cs, I could imagine myself applying there, even commuting from Europe.
And Europe (once again: Europe, not US/UK!) doesn't reflect that. Yes, there are now jobs, however there are still closures (i.e. due to sanctions against Russia) and cutbacks like at SAS or last years TUI Airlines (massive layoffs), which help other airlines fill their vacancies. As Oasis said, it will take a long run, before this affects T&Cs. And neither Lufthansa, nor Air France and others are offering DEC-opportunities, and they never will, as unions keep an eye on that.
A good summary is this post from last year (NetJets): pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/642679-netjets-europe-hiring-again-20.html?ispreloading=1#post11242083
It might be 1 year old, but basically the situation hasn't much changed till now, except that there are more (low paid) vacancies.
But once again - this is an "artificial" shortage, promoted by strict immigration rules and the pilots unions in the US. If the "shortage" would seriously endanger the business of US-carriers, they would already have asked Washington to easen Green Card-requirements for pilots. With the given T&Cs, I could imagine myself applying there, even commuting from Europe.
And Europe (once again: Europe, not US/UK!) doesn't reflect that. Yes, there are now jobs, however there are still closures (i.e. due to sanctions against Russia) and cutbacks like at SAS or last years TUI Airlines (massive layoffs), which help other airlines fill their vacancies. As Oasis said, it will take a long run, before this affects T&Cs. And neither Lufthansa, nor Air France and others are offering DEC-opportunities, and they never will, as unions keep an eye on that.
A good summary is this post from last year (NetJets): pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/642679-netjets-europe-hiring-again-20.html?ispreloading=1#post11242083
It might be 1 year old, but basically the situation hasn't much changed till now, except that there are more (low paid) vacancies.
Whatever the reasons are, T&C's in the US have gone from some of the worst in the world, i.e regional FO's making 20k USD a year 10-15 years ago, to now, arguably, the best T&C's in the world, where-as Cathay, once one of the best, if not the best, airlines to work for in the world, has gone the complete opposite way in recent years.
Call it what whatever you want, it's unfortunate, and clearly, cyclical, based on many variables. That's the reality, and the point I wanted to make is, people need to accept the ever changing environment, and not pretend that everything is fine, when it's not.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: LA
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fac6, Oasis, you are right, there are job openings, but..
- most are at LCC
- most are right seat only
- most are very poorly paid ( Whizzair, Eurowings)
To my knowledge Aerologic is offering about 8-9K after tax incl some overtime ( this could be wrong, I have no first hand source). This would be for long-haul with a difficult commute ( dep. on your residence obviously) and 80-90 hours block, round the world trips, 3 men to HKG via india.. I don't find that very attractive if true, it certainly would be on the lower edge for this kind of ops, and a 50% + cut (!) for a Cx CN.
Norse T&E are very poor, BA recruiting mainly for a LCC with significant less pay, Eurowings PMI base is 4500 Euro net for CN..So yes, technical job offers, but acceptable..?
Interestingly, most of the jobs you mentioned are from the UK, not EU. Seems like there is an imbalance and continental Europe not catching up for some reason.
- most are at LCC
- most are right seat only
- most are very poorly paid ( Whizzair, Eurowings)
To my knowledge Aerologic is offering about 8-9K after tax incl some overtime ( this could be wrong, I have no first hand source). This would be for long-haul with a difficult commute ( dep. on your residence obviously) and 80-90 hours block, round the world trips, 3 men to HKG via india.. I don't find that very attractive if true, it certainly would be on the lower edge for this kind of ops, and a 50% + cut (!) for a Cx CN.
Norse T&E are very poor, BA recruiting mainly for a LCC with significant less pay, Eurowings PMI base is 4500 Euro net for CN..So yes, technical job offers, but acceptable..?
Interestingly, most of the jobs you mentioned are from the UK, not EU. Seems like there is an imbalance and continental Europe not catching up for some reason.
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Earth
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We are not there yet with Cathay ending up at the opposite end.
That might be still on the horizon.
Youth unemployment in China poses a huge threat to the existing pilot group.*
The mainlanders might be the new locals, who could drag salaries in HKG down further.
The old locals (HKG folks) might end up in the role of the old expats with never ending evaporating terms until the salaries are in balance with benchmark China.
The old expats are either gone, on their way out or a dying species anyways.
Once they can fill the seats with enough Mainlanders, Cathay/Beijing could get rid of the remaining ‘expat locals‘ by making it mandatory to speak a native tongue, like in KLM, AF, LH, etc. or by other means.
Cathay/Beijing would never do that, right ?
*11.6 Million college graduates in China this year alone, not even including Chinese graduates from overseas returning to China.
20% youth unemployment and Cathay opening the cadet track for mainland China.
That might be still on the horizon.
Youth unemployment in China poses a huge threat to the existing pilot group.*
The mainlanders might be the new locals, who could drag salaries in HKG down further.
The old locals (HKG folks) might end up in the role of the old expats with never ending evaporating terms until the salaries are in balance with benchmark China.
The old expats are either gone, on their way out or a dying species anyways.
Once they can fill the seats with enough Mainlanders, Cathay/Beijing could get rid of the remaining ‘expat locals‘ by making it mandatory to speak a native tongue, like in KLM, AF, LH, etc. or by other means.
Cathay/Beijing would never do that, right ?
*11.6 Million college graduates in China this year alone, not even including Chinese graduates from overseas returning to China.
20% youth unemployment and Cathay opening the cadet track for mainland China.
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any look at the Classifieds in the Saturday SCMP will show that in addition to English, Cantonese fluency and Putonghua is mandatory. Even in the most English essential jobs such as NETS, English teaching in schools, and lecturing in the various Uni's. Sadly or not, this will be a prerequisite in a couple of years in the Airline world, where other than the Cockpit, it's pretty much evident now.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Defeatist much?
You can also try to put your 2 cents in and fight that “inevitable” change.
But if you want to join the likes of STW and eat every **** sandwich that is thrown your way, have at it.
You can also try to put your 2 cents in and fight that “inevitable” change.
But if you want to join the likes of STW and eat every **** sandwich that is thrown your way, have at it.
Fight the change? Yeah right, that’ll never happen. What’s left of the pilot group doesn’t have any sort of backbone, and the ones that do packed up and left. A toothless “union” and the muppets in management will ensure nothing ever changes, for the better anyway. I do wish my ex-colleagues all the best though, there’s plenty who had no choice but to stay and I respect that.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: the land of chocolate
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aoa going for industrial action. And I have to say that they couldn’t have picked a better time in history to do so. Many there are actively looking to get out anyway so they DNGAF.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 55
Posts: 505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With all due respect, but "actively looking to get out" ? What does that even mean? From a management's perspective they are showing up at sign on, and that is that. Nobody cares if they do so happy or sad. Frank A. Memphis, Tiger Pork, Dream 746 and Klinger all make good points in my opinion. Reality is Cathay can recruit globally, with no experience. Possibly soon infinite numbers from up North. Delta can't.
Fact is the majority is interested in keeping their job and will not go on strike, and with fair reason. The picture of the brave and heroic Westerner who is fiercely defending his contract is fanciful. There is almost no risk involved at home, legislation protects union delegates etc. I find it a bit rich to look down on locals who are somehow not "brought up" to fight. Maybe watch the Joshua documentary and spare a thought for the hundreds of locals in confinement as we speak and then think again. Some are just lucky and live and work in the right country, that's all. No personal achievement. The political system in HK is realistically most probably too dominant, the pilot group too diverse. Industrial action most likely will not happen, it's not very useful nor fair to scapegoat. Market forces reign here, for the better and the worse. For what it's worth, my vote is in favor of industrial action, but I have almost zero hope it will ever happen. Is anyone today denying the almost ridiculous picture of past "actions", like training and union membership ban? If we go for it it must be more serious than that, no more pretending, it must be real with all the possible consequences. Everything else is embarrassing. Against the notion of Piet I am not against industrial actions, I just don't believe it will happen. Bring it on.
Speaking of the devil, Piet, as usual, obsessively I dare say identifies individual misconduct and cowardly opportunism as the culprit. After joining as B scaler himself and leaving without a single day on strike he is now pointing fingers at his old colleagues. Ironically, after Cathay, the Piets of this world often join a low cost or start-up back home, because it serves them. The very companies in competition with the worshipped unions (and hence often closed-up) flagshps. Undercutting the colleagues on bigger pay at home then suddenly is ok. Or even better, they come back as direct entry captains to Cathay. After finally realizing not all is so rosy out there. After the cuts, with no housing, but conveniently on their fleet of choice. To be very clear, I personally have no problem with that, things change, but to point fingers after an entire career purely following own interests, this is really textbook hypocritical behaviour.
I also find it quite interesting that a lot of colleagues I flew with, especially Americans and Brits, quite often are politically positioned well to the right. Which is fine of course in principle, none of my business. They move voluntarily to a place they know has no comparable labor rights, they happily enjoyed the free market in HK resulting in cheap labor while it served them, domestic helper for instance. The low tax, only possible because of a hardcore neoliberal system. More than once I heard colleagues arguing the political unrest should stop, better to accept the circumstances and live with it ( read: don't protest if it damages the airline business/tourism). They shook their heads when Uber was restriced in HK, and every taxi fare rise was met with disgust. They accepted based positions, simply because the pay was alright and it suited their lifestyle. No real union power was just fine as long as the pay and the number of G days was. They lived and breathed free movement of labor, as expats, following market forces, always on the look out for the best deal. Adam Smith's free agent incarnations. Living the capitalist dream. But the moment it's against their interests they turn into little Trotzkis or Brexiteers. Well, different discussion I guess.
Fact is the majority is interested in keeping their job and will not go on strike, and with fair reason. The picture of the brave and heroic Westerner who is fiercely defending his contract is fanciful. There is almost no risk involved at home, legislation protects union delegates etc. I find it a bit rich to look down on locals who are somehow not "brought up" to fight. Maybe watch the Joshua documentary and spare a thought for the hundreds of locals in confinement as we speak and then think again. Some are just lucky and live and work in the right country, that's all. No personal achievement. The political system in HK is realistically most probably too dominant, the pilot group too diverse. Industrial action most likely will not happen, it's not very useful nor fair to scapegoat. Market forces reign here, for the better and the worse. For what it's worth, my vote is in favor of industrial action, but I have almost zero hope it will ever happen. Is anyone today denying the almost ridiculous picture of past "actions", like training and union membership ban? If we go for it it must be more serious than that, no more pretending, it must be real with all the possible consequences. Everything else is embarrassing. Against the notion of Piet I am not against industrial actions, I just don't believe it will happen. Bring it on.
Speaking of the devil, Piet, as usual, obsessively I dare say identifies individual misconduct and cowardly opportunism as the culprit. After joining as B scaler himself and leaving without a single day on strike he is now pointing fingers at his old colleagues. Ironically, after Cathay, the Piets of this world often join a low cost or start-up back home, because it serves them. The very companies in competition with the worshipped unions (and hence often closed-up) flagshps. Undercutting the colleagues on bigger pay at home then suddenly is ok. Or even better, they come back as direct entry captains to Cathay. After finally realizing not all is so rosy out there. After the cuts, with no housing, but conveniently on their fleet of choice. To be very clear, I personally have no problem with that, things change, but to point fingers after an entire career purely following own interests, this is really textbook hypocritical behaviour.
I also find it quite interesting that a lot of colleagues I flew with, especially Americans and Brits, quite often are politically positioned well to the right. Which is fine of course in principle, none of my business. They move voluntarily to a place they know has no comparable labor rights, they happily enjoyed the free market in HK resulting in cheap labor while it served them, domestic helper for instance. The low tax, only possible because of a hardcore neoliberal system. More than once I heard colleagues arguing the political unrest should stop, better to accept the circumstances and live with it ( read: don't protest if it damages the airline business/tourism). They shook their heads when Uber was restriced in HK, and every taxi fare rise was met with disgust. They accepted based positions, simply because the pay was alright and it suited their lifestyle. No real union power was just fine as long as the pay and the number of G days was. They lived and breathed free movement of labor, as expats, following market forces, always on the look out for the best deal. Adam Smith's free agent incarnations. Living the capitalist dream. But the moment it's against their interests they turn into little Trotzkis or Brexiteers. Well, different discussion I guess.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 10th Aug 2023 at 09:44.
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: On reserve
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is simply not true. Chinese proficiency, Cantonese or otherwise is not normally a requirement for a NET position in a school, learning centre or even private tutoring. My significant other is currently employed at a government primary school teaching English and there was no expectation of Chinese proficiency now, or when they applied.
Join Date: Jul 2023
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably Cathay won't probably get candidates from the US, but all other parts of the world. They must decide themselves, whom they compete with regardings T&Cs, and the main employers in this field are Low Costers from anywhere and the classical ME-Airlines. The latter have their workforce compelled to live in countries (passport withdrawn) which are no inch better concerning democratic/free systems than HK.
But anybody is free to decide where to apply. At least job offers are by far better then they used to be in the last years.
But anybody is free to decide where to apply. At least job offers are by far better then they used to be in the last years.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: LA
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is correct, is that no industrial action will happen. Things can't be that bad if people are returning. I was lucky enough to join a legacy carrier but many are finding that here in the US the grass is definitely not greener. The economy here is in sharp decline helped by a President who has lost his mind and the alternative that could possibly win the next election will further ruin whatever economy we have left. I doubt there will be a pilot shortage then.
I see that Oasis is as usual is in the vangard of the failed nonsence brigade - has it not dawned yet that their battle to down Cathay Pacific by what ever means possible failed some time ago and most of the troops have already fled the lost cause.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: havetocallthereception
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Incorrect. Some guys over here who are heading back have been told that whatever fleet they left on they go back on. There is no "fleet of choice."
What is correct, is that no industrial action will happen. Things can't be that bad if people are returning. I was lucky enough to join a legacy carrier but many are finding that here in the US the grass is definitely not greener. The economy here is in sharp decline helped by a President who has lost his mind and the alternative that could possibly win the next election will further ruin whatever economy we have left. I doubt there will be a pilot shortage then.
What is correct, is that no industrial action will happen. Things can't be that bad if people are returning. I was lucky enough to join a legacy carrier but many are finding that here in the US the grass is definitely not greener. The economy here is in sharp decline helped by a President who has lost his mind and the alternative that could possibly win the next election will further ruin whatever economy we have left. I doubt there will be a pilot shortage then.
I know of two ex-Cathay 747 pilots who got a personal call from TB to ask them to come back, on fleet of choice. I don't know how many in total received this offer, but I know 100 % these two have.And it makes sense. As usual, Cathay FOP is purely cost driven. We have demand on two fleets and no demand on the third fleet which nobody wants anyway.
How convenient.
Last edited by corporal klinger; 11th Aug 2023 at 07:44.
New hire fleet
I know of two ex-Cathay 747 pilots who got a personal call from TB to ask them to come back, on fleet of choice. I don't know how many in total received this offer, but I know 100 % these two have.And it makes sense. As usual, Cathay FOP is purely cost driven. We have demand on two fleets and no demand on the third fleet which nobody wants anyway.
How convenient.
How convenient.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 400
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The real reason those jets are still there is that cx don’t have the engineering resources to get them out. The board has decided its billions are better off being spent buying the government’s share of the company thereby removing the two pesky observers rather than spending on the airline’s infrastructure or its people.
But I understand this is a pilot’s forum and pilot’s know best and FOP is the only department in cx that is important. So I’ll let you all get back to explaining how your life satisfaction is dependent on your pay cheque, fully appreciating that the average expat who has made the move to Asia or the Middle East is a mercenary and by definition is driven more by money than the average citizen.
But obviously not driven enough for two of you to write a motion initiating industrial action. Far more effective venting on WhatsApp groups.
The strong have left, the weak remain.
But I understand this is a pilot’s forum and pilot’s know best and FOP is the only department in cx that is important. So I’ll let you all get back to explaining how your life satisfaction is dependent on your pay cheque, fully appreciating that the average expat who has made the move to Asia or the Middle East is a mercenary and by definition is driven more by money than the average citizen.
But obviously not driven enough for two of you to write a motion initiating industrial action. Far more effective venting on WhatsApp groups.
The strong have left, the weak remain.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, industrial action was strong enough in 99 to force the Company to concede on their ridiculous demands; and in 2001 to cause CX to summarily fire 49 pilots, including the AOA committee members, without cause. But lately, not so much….