DEFO back at CX
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As was posted up thread. This package is probably aimed at HKE/HKA FOs, not at BA.
Is it an upgrade on what they have? Yes, with the unknown of time to command - but given the slot constraints in HK, unlikely that HKA would be significantly faster than CX.
Is it an upgrade on what they have? Yes, with the unknown of time to command - but given the slot constraints in HK, unlikely that HKA would be significantly faster than CX.
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Hi Guys,
To start I am not in Cathay, but also wish everybody out there was on the expat conditions.
Just a message here to let you know what kind of options a FO flying around in Europe has.
- Staying in Europe in your own country
o BA: great! Don’t need to explain.
o Not BA & possible with English language only
Thomson: pay scale in steps of 5 year. Stable job and income but not great (no villa money). Also long time to command.
Besides those two its Monarch or low cost airlines (Ryanair, Easyjet, Norwegian). If you work for a low cost airline conditions are very poor and unstable. Every airline is a bit different but most get only an hourly rate and NOTHING besides that. No insurance (LOL, health), no or very small pension, no sick pay, no pay if your flight is cancelled, no pay if you are stuck on the ground tech or due weather.
In Ryanair the pay scale is for you probably a Z scale. You start now with about 70,50 Euro per hour as a FO. And as a captain you end up with about 110-130 Euro per hour. Note that after you made your quick upgrade to Captain you be most likely on the same pay till you stop working (no inflation correction, no nothing)
- Moving abroad: Again low cost, Middle East, CargoLux. Or wait, become a captain and go to China.
This might show you guys what we need to deal with in Europe and why even C-scale is an option. It’s a race to the bottom in Europe.
And for most other nationalities it’s the same in Europe; most of the time only one proper legacy airline in your country. If you are unlucky and don’t get the job, there’s nothing else left and Cathay looks a lot better.
To start I am not in Cathay, but also wish everybody out there was on the expat conditions.
Just a message here to let you know what kind of options a FO flying around in Europe has.
- Staying in Europe in your own country
o BA: great! Don’t need to explain.
o Not BA & possible with English language only
Thomson: pay scale in steps of 5 year. Stable job and income but not great (no villa money). Also long time to command.
Besides those two its Monarch or low cost airlines (Ryanair, Easyjet, Norwegian). If you work for a low cost airline conditions are very poor and unstable. Every airline is a bit different but most get only an hourly rate and NOTHING besides that. No insurance (LOL, health), no or very small pension, no sick pay, no pay if your flight is cancelled, no pay if you are stuck on the ground tech or due weather.
In Ryanair the pay scale is for you probably a Z scale. You start now with about 70,50 Euro per hour as a FO. And as a captain you end up with about 110-130 Euro per hour. Note that after you made your quick upgrade to Captain you be most likely on the same pay till you stop working (no inflation correction, no nothing)
- Moving abroad: Again low cost, Middle East, CargoLux. Or wait, become a captain and go to China.
This might show you guys what we need to deal with in Europe and why even C-scale is an option. It’s a race to the bottom in Europe.
And for most other nationalities it’s the same in Europe; most of the time only one proper legacy airline in your country. If you are unlucky and don’t get the job, there’s nothing else left and Cathay looks a lot better.
In Ryanair the pay scale is for you probably a Z scale. You start now with about 70,50 Euro per hour as a FO. And as a captain you end up with about 110-130 Euro per hour. Note that after you made your quick upgrade to Captain you be most likely on the same pay till you stop working (no inflation correction, no nothing)
- Moving abroad: Again low cost, Middle East, CargoLux. Or wait, become a captain and go to China.
This might show you guys what we need to deal with in Europe and why even C-scale is an option. It’s a race to the bottom in Europe.
- Moving abroad: Again low cost, Middle East, CargoLux. Or wait, become a captain and go to China.
This might show you guys what we need to deal with in Europe and why even C-scale is an option. It’s a race to the bottom in Europe.
Join Date: Mar 2015
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One day
One day pilots will finally realise this race to the bottom is a direct result of clinging to a SENIORITY SYSTEM that completely f@&s the pilot industry!
The airlines love it, "we will shaft you over and over and over again because leaving the seniority system means you go straight to the bottom at the next job".
So please stay bitch and moan while we shaft you some more, as we employ more and more who are desperate to get on the ladder and become slaves to the system.
"Oh, but I'll never get a command without seniority 😢😢😢".
Management, laughing all the way to their bonus.
The airlines love it, "we will shaft you over and over and over again because leaving the seniority system means you go straight to the bottom at the next job".
So please stay bitch and moan while we shaft you some more, as we employ more and more who are desperate to get on the ladder and become slaves to the system.
"Oh, but I'll never get a command without seniority 😢😢😢".
Management, laughing all the way to their bonus.
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Avinthenews,
interesting point. Would change a lot of things, if to the better.. well there would be losers and winners I guess.
I would not blame pilots for having a seniority system though, it's not like we invented it, they did.
interesting point. Would change a lot of things, if to the better.. well there would be losers and winners I guess.
I would not blame pilots for having a seniority system though, it's not like we invented it, they did.
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Some perspective.
Historically, those coming from Europe to join Cathay in many cases chose CX over BA /LH / KLM / other majors.
The excellent pay and housing package, relatively quick time to command and basing opportunities in London, Manchester, Frankfurt, Paris or Amsterdam was enough to tip the scales.
Similar individuals will not make the same choice today. That's a fact and direct consequence of C scales and HKPA.
Historically, those coming from Europe to join Cathay in many cases chose CX over BA /LH / KLM / other majors.
The excellent pay and housing package, relatively quick time to command and basing opportunities in London, Manchester, Frankfurt, Paris or Amsterdam was enough to tip the scales.
Similar individuals will not make the same choice today. That's a fact and direct consequence of C scales and HKPA.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Sam Ting Wong-
It sounds like you may be on C scale and are tired of those of us on B scale complaining, fair enough. What you are ignoring is that we are upset that every one of the C-scalers that join, for whatever the reason, weaken our ability to negotiate for higher. You might keep that in mind while you're up there throwing stones from your glass house.
It sounds like you may be on C scale and are tired of those of us on B scale complaining, fair enough. What you are ignoring is that we are upset that every one of the C-scalers that join, for whatever the reason, weaken our ability to negotiate for higher. You might keep that in mind while you're up there throwing stones from your glass house.
its�5perworddammit
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Same question to you - why did you join on B-scales? Weren't you upset that, for every B-scaler like you that had joined, it weakened the A-scalers ability to negotiate for higher?
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Billy,
I am on B, and I disagree strongly with the general opinion that C is hurting B. The opposite is true.
B is not the market rate anymore.
In the old days there were not enough pilots on the market that would have joined for C money.
But you and I did not need A to come, B was just fine.
Times have changed.
C is the new B.
The only way B can survive is thru grandfathering, as did A ( somehow) and that needs C to keep costs at an acceptable level.
Cathay could not be successful in the market with everybody on B.
A few years ago the same was true for A.
Imagine an airline in the current market with thousands of pilots on A.
Who would buy their shares? I wouldn't and none of you would.
The same will be said of B in a few years.
Just do the math.
Cathay needs to be profitable in order to continue B for those on it, or there will be cuts.
B needs C to survive.
Stop telling C guys their package is bad, it isn't.
Everybody who joins Cathay on the current terms has made a free choice. It is not for us to judge that, I don't know the circumstances, I do not know the person, I do not know their preferences.
I joined at a much higher age, with more experience, and I gave up a well paying job at home.
Why should I compare my package with the current employment offer, with a totally different profile of the average new-joiner?
It is the market price they accepted, and there is no such thing as "bad" or "good" in a free economy like Hong Kong. There is a market price, and that is that.
If the company decides to top up the housing for C, fine! ( it would help not to vote down the offer though).
Food for thought:
If C costs go up, something has to give.
Will it be the shareholder or a B pilot?
.
I am on B, and I disagree strongly with the general opinion that C is hurting B. The opposite is true.
B is not the market rate anymore.
In the old days there were not enough pilots on the market that would have joined for C money.
But you and I did not need A to come, B was just fine.
Times have changed.
C is the new B.
The only way B can survive is thru grandfathering, as did A ( somehow) and that needs C to keep costs at an acceptable level.
Cathay could not be successful in the market with everybody on B.
A few years ago the same was true for A.
Imagine an airline in the current market with thousands of pilots on A.
Who would buy their shares? I wouldn't and none of you would.
The same will be said of B in a few years.
Just do the math.
Cathay needs to be profitable in order to continue B for those on it, or there will be cuts.
B needs C to survive.
Stop telling C guys their package is bad, it isn't.
Everybody who joins Cathay on the current terms has made a free choice. It is not for us to judge that, I don't know the circumstances, I do not know the person, I do not know their preferences.
I joined at a much higher age, with more experience, and I gave up a well paying job at home.
Why should I compare my package with the current employment offer, with a totally different profile of the average new-joiner?
It is the market price they accepted, and there is no such thing as "bad" or "good" in a free economy like Hong Kong. There is a market price, and that is that.
If the company decides to top up the housing for C, fine! ( it would help not to vote down the offer though).
Food for thought:
If C costs go up, something has to give.
Will it be the shareholder or a B pilot?
.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 8th Aug 2016 at 23:00.
When I joined as an A Scaler the company was making record profits, with a pioneering and world-beating product. Perhaps then, our working G Days, helping out during typhoons, looking forward to going into training and going that extra mile had something to do with it. By a strange coincidence, the company's star started to wane after B-scales and then lower were introduced.
Prospective joiners reading this thread, do your due diligence on the cost of living and quality of life in Hong Kong. Also, you need to be aware that the airline is a one-trick pony due to the limitations of its crowded hub airport. You may never see a command due to this, the numbers ahead of you and its relatively young captains.
Don't be sucked in by the prospect of a base in your home country. There hasn't been a new base slot in mine for nearly a decade, and there will be 3,000 pilots senior to you. The company will never deny that bases are finished, which is a carrot dangling on the stick to get you to join.
And above all, if you accept a position with this lot, survive the 'training' system and end up sharing a cockpit with me, don't complain about your conditions, your tiredness, unhappy wife, living in Hong Kong or the 15-20 years to command (maybe). You have been warned.
Prospective joiners reading this thread, do your due diligence on the cost of living and quality of life in Hong Kong. Also, you need to be aware that the airline is a one-trick pony due to the limitations of its crowded hub airport. You may never see a command due to this, the numbers ahead of you and its relatively young captains.
Don't be sucked in by the prospect of a base in your home country. There hasn't been a new base slot in mine for nearly a decade, and there will be 3,000 pilots senior to you. The company will never deny that bases are finished, which is a carrot dangling on the stick to get you to join.
And above all, if you accept a position with this lot, survive the 'training' system and end up sharing a cockpit with me, don't complain about your conditions, your tiredness, unhappy wife, living in Hong Kong or the 15-20 years to command (maybe). You have been warned.
Last edited by Captain Dart; 8th Aug 2016 at 23:39.
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What's this A scale that you talk of? And why is there a B (and lower?). And what's a G day, may I ask? Not that I'm applying! I'll leave my sanity reasonably intact and prevent any suspicion that I may be in need of a lobotomy. This forum has went above and beyond when it comes to promoting the virtues of Cathay.
Shame, CX was once such a aspirational career choice for so many.
Shame, CX was once such a aspirational career choice for so many.
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Same question to you - why did you join on B-scales? Weren't you upset that, for every B-scaler like you that had joined, it weakened the A-scalers ability to negotiate for higher?
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Billy,
I am on B, and I disagree strongly with the general opinion that C is hurting B. The opposite is true.
B is not the market rate anymore.
In the old days there were not enough pilots on the market that would have joined for C money.
But you and I did not need A to come, B was just fine.
Times have changed.
I am on B, and I disagree strongly with the general opinion that C is hurting B. The opposite is true.
B is not the market rate anymore.
In the old days there were not enough pilots on the market that would have joined for C money.
But you and I did not need A to come, B was just fine.
Times have changed.
Cathay could not be successful in the market with everybody on B.
Everybody who joins Cathay on the current terms has made a free choice. It is not for us to judge that, I don't know the circumstances, I do not know the person, I do not know their preferences.
Pilot cost is approximately 5% of any airline's total cost; fuel being the highest at 50%. The company pissed away over a billion USD on fuel hedging and was still profitable. Can you explain how CX would lose money/shareholders based on this evidence?
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Billy,
you are saying:
"I'm not judging anyone, merely recognizing that having pilots on property doing the same job for less hurts us."
Give me ONE example where introduction of C did hurt you! One proof, one piece of evidence, one example, ONE!
you are saying:
"Pilot cost is approximately 5% of any airline's total cost; fuel being the highest at 50%. The company pissed away over a billion USD on fuel hedging and was still profitable. Can you explain how CX would lose money/shareholders based on this evidence?"
You don't understand the business, with all respect. It doesn't matter if department A loses/spends more, management will always look to optimise cost in EVERY department ( and they should!). It is totally illogical to say : these guys in the fuel dept lost money, so we want to spend more as well. If there is any consequence from the hedging loss, then the opposite!
Also you don't understand what makes profit a good return on investment. The absolute figure is totally irrelevant! It is the ratio to the invested capital that is important, it is relevant what the average ratio in the industry is, what the ratio is at our competitors.
Imagine you would say to Apple sharesholders, guys, good news, we made 1 Billion profit in 2016. You understand???
Fun fact: all pilots on B would cost the company an extra 1-2 Billion per year. A third of an already meagre profit.
What is it that you don't understand???
you are saying:
"I'm not judging anyone, merely recognizing that having pilots on property doing the same job for less hurts us."
Give me ONE example where introduction of C did hurt you! One proof, one piece of evidence, one example, ONE!
you are saying:
"Pilot cost is approximately 5% of any airline's total cost; fuel being the highest at 50%. The company pissed away over a billion USD on fuel hedging and was still profitable. Can you explain how CX would lose money/shareholders based on this evidence?"
You don't understand the business, with all respect. It doesn't matter if department A loses/spends more, management will always look to optimise cost in EVERY department ( and they should!). It is totally illogical to say : these guys in the fuel dept lost money, so we want to spend more as well. If there is any consequence from the hedging loss, then the opposite!
Also you don't understand what makes profit a good return on investment. The absolute figure is totally irrelevant! It is the ratio to the invested capital that is important, it is relevant what the average ratio in the industry is, what the ratio is at our competitors.
Imagine you would say to Apple sharesholders, guys, good news, we made 1 Billion profit in 2016. You understand???
Fun fact: all pilots on B would cost the company an extra 1-2 Billion per year. A third of an already meagre profit.
What is it that you don't understand???
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 9th Aug 2016 at 01:34.
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And it makes my job much more difficult.
We had some very low time cadets in the past but there were less than 10% of them.
Now they amount for 80% of the new recruits.
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I was talking about economic consequences. But,ok,fair point.
I don't really understand the logic behind a fight for B scale allegedly for more experienced guys though. Would it not make more sense to say we want cadets with such and such an experience? Are we really being honest when we say SO experience is our main concern??
In my memory there was always a problem with zero hour SO's, and I fly with a LOT of SO's with a LOT of hours. I personally never had a bad experience with an SO.
What I do remember though from 10 years back is the odd A scale captain lecturing me about the quality of recruits going down (on totally unacceptable B scale terms of course)...
Are you in training? Then why not train them as long as it takes? Don't check them out if they are not ready.
I don't really understand the logic behind a fight for B scale allegedly for more experienced guys though. Would it not make more sense to say we want cadets with such and such an experience? Are we really being honest when we say SO experience is our main concern??
In my memory there was always a problem with zero hour SO's, and I fly with a LOT of SO's with a LOT of hours. I personally never had a bad experience with an SO.
What I do remember though from 10 years back is the odd A scale captain lecturing me about the quality of recruits going down (on totally unacceptable B scale terms of course)...
Are you in training? Then why not train them as long as it takes? Don't check them out if they are not ready.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 9th Aug 2016 at 02:28.
its�5perworddammit
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How is that not a valid comparasion?
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Give me ONE example where introduction of C did hurt you! One proof, one piece of evidence, one example, ONE!
You don't understand the business, with all respect. It doesn't matter if department A loses/spends more, management will always look to optimise cost in EVERY department ( and they should!). It is totally illogical to say : these guys in the fuel dept lost money, so we want to spend more as well. If there is any consequence from the hedging loss, then the opposite!
Also you don't understand what makes profit a good return on investment.
Fun fact: all pilots on B would cost the company an extra 1-2 Billion per year. A third of an already meagre profit.