DEFO back at CX
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Hi , I'm new here . Could someone tell me the typical roster of 747 ?
I know I should understand harsh reality but I'm still dreaming a dream. Still , I like CX ......
Is it possible to commute from Asian countries (e.g. Singapore or Japan)
I know I should understand harsh reality but I'm still dreaming a dream. Still , I like CX ......
Is it possible to commute from Asian countries (e.g. Singapore or Japan)
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"You can only lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink!"
Seriously though, if these guys don't come, who will we get? Probably even lesser qualified "pilots". God help us!!!
It's a true race to the bottom. Back when I was hired, my 3500 hours (all high performance and a fair bit PIC) were at the bottom of the totals amongst my peers. So here we are and I'd be so overqualified for DEFO position at CX that it isn't even funny. To say this is anything other than a race to the bottom is extremely disingenuous. WTF is going on here?
Seriously though, if these guys don't come, who will we get? Probably even lesser qualified "pilots". God help us!!!
It's a true race to the bottom. Back when I was hired, my 3500 hours (all high performance and a fair bit PIC) were at the bottom of the totals amongst my peers. So here we are and I'd be so overqualified for DEFO position at CX that it isn't even funny. To say this is anything other than a race to the bottom is extremely disingenuous. WTF is going on here?
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Why on earth is it so difficult for you guys to accept the market is different from what it was 10 or 20 years ago?
Why????
What an egocentric lot you all are..
Recruits come from places with far lesser opportunities. That's all there is to it. What part do you guys don't get??? What is wrong with you?? It's so simple and you guys waffle ablut it since decades!!
You fantasize about Jobs at China Southern ( that require heavy PIC time our recruits don't have), you inflate rental figures ( check a 3 bed in Tuen Mun), you just don't get these new guys have to deal with totally different circumstances, they have totally different requirements, etc etc Then they might be double earners, ever heard of that concept? The world is not as black and white as you guys think, it is not a on/off situation like in the cockpit. Jesus, guys!!! So embarrassing to hear your arrogant bickering about the stupid young, you sound like your parents 50 years ago and you don't even notice it!
The most insane aspect of your childish and simplificated world view:
you guys believe higher conditions for new-joiners would PROTECT you! The opposite is true you fools! Where do you think Cathay will get the higher expenditure from??? Yes?? Anyone???? Fools!
Why????
What an egocentric lot you all are..
Recruits come from places with far lesser opportunities. That's all there is to it. What part do you guys don't get??? What is wrong with you?? It's so simple and you guys waffle ablut it since decades!!
You fantasize about Jobs at China Southern ( that require heavy PIC time our recruits don't have), you inflate rental figures ( check a 3 bed in Tuen Mun), you just don't get these new guys have to deal with totally different circumstances, they have totally different requirements, etc etc Then they might be double earners, ever heard of that concept? The world is not as black and white as you guys think, it is not a on/off situation like in the cockpit. Jesus, guys!!! So embarrassing to hear your arrogant bickering about the stupid young, you sound like your parents 50 years ago and you don't even notice it!
The most insane aspect of your childish and simplificated world view:
you guys believe higher conditions for new-joiners would PROTECT you! The opposite is true you fools! Where do you think Cathay will get the higher expenditure from??? Yes?? Anyone???? Fools!
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Justdreamer, don't believe half of what you read in here. These guys sitting in Hong Kong since 10 plus years and will do so for the next 10. Thats how much they hate it here.
The true reason for these hypocrites is the insane and absurd concept of scaring away new joiners in order to improve their own package. That is the truth. They don't care about you one bit.This place made some people very lonely and bitter, not everyone is made to live an expat life..
You can easily commute on the 747 DEFO to places in Asia, as a Second Officer anyway.
Expect to live about 45 min away from the city centre on a non-expat pay package, as a single guy or with an employed spouse you can get a small place on the Island for about 20k. 95% of the things people complain about have nothing to do with Cathay, they just don't like the place, their life, their wife, god knows what, and ( if they are honest to themselves) the rather dull job.
The true reason for these hypocrites is the insane and absurd concept of scaring away new joiners in order to improve their own package. That is the truth. They don't care about you one bit.This place made some people very lonely and bitter, not everyone is made to live an expat life..
You can easily commute on the 747 DEFO to places in Asia, as a Second Officer anyway.
Expect to live about 45 min away from the city centre on a non-expat pay package, as a single guy or with an employed spouse you can get a small place on the Island for about 20k. 95% of the things people complain about have nothing to do with Cathay, they just don't like the place, their life, their wife, god knows what, and ( if they are honest to themselves) the rather dull job.
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Justdreamer,
Remember that the views you see here are not representative of the mix of views at CX. Sure not everyone is happy but there are plenty of people who although they have a moan every now and then (Who doesn't love a good moan?), actually like HK and actually enjoy flying for Cathay. The happy people as usual just stay quiet about that especially here where it is not considered the 'cool' opinion to say you are happy.
Remember that the views you see here are not representative of the mix of views at CX. Sure not everyone is happy but there are plenty of people who although they have a moan every now and then (Who doesn't love a good moan?), actually like HK and actually enjoy flying for Cathay. The happy people as usual just stay quiet about that especially here where it is not considered the 'cool' opinion to say you are happy.
STW,
Justdreamer was asking questions on the DEFO thread; so why are you telling this guy about SO rosters and commuting opportunities?
Tuen Mun is awesome - hardly any foreigners, awesome 60 story (pink) high rises planned by creative architects, huge box aircons which keep you awake at night (unless you sleep with earplugs), attractive shopping malls and fresh air due to its proximity to the Mainland.
All good reasons to give up the blue skies wherever you come from to fly a 747 on 12 day patterns with multiple roster changes to the US or a 330 regionally and to India at with 8-9 G days a month to recover from all the night work (further let's not forget the infinite time to command).
Justdreamer was asking questions on the DEFO thread; so why are you telling this guy about SO rosters and commuting opportunities?
Tuen Mun is awesome - hardly any foreigners, awesome 60 story (pink) high rises planned by creative architects, huge box aircons which keep you awake at night (unless you sleep with earplugs), attractive shopping malls and fresh air due to its proximity to the Mainland.
All good reasons to give up the blue skies wherever you come from to fly a 747 on 12 day patterns with multiple roster changes to the US or a 330 regionally and to India at with 8-9 G days a month to recover from all the night work (further let's not forget the infinite time to command).
geh65,
Is it maybe because the happy people are all on full expat terms?!
Hence I am yet to find a happy C-scaler mainly due to the cost of living in HKG and lack of desire to live in Tuen Mun.
Is it maybe because the happy people are all on full expat terms?!
Hence I am yet to find a happy C-scaler mainly due to the cost of living in HKG and lack of desire to live in Tuen Mun.
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You just proved my point Aquis.
You and your comrades constantly compare apple with oranges.
These new recruits come with a certain limited choice on their hand, you see?
Would you rather fly 737 in Nigeria for 2000 US or maybe live in Tung Chung, and earn three times as much in your first month?
You think it is a choice between what? A380 Captain at Korean, 777 at Delta and DEFO at Cathay??? In what world do you live?
It is so ironic that you work and live at the international HQ of Capitalism and you don't understand market forces. Not one bit.
Also, you know very well that 12 day patterns on the 747 are as rare as snow on christmas in HK. Complete BS.
You and your comrades constantly compare apple with oranges.
These new recruits come with a certain limited choice on their hand, you see?
Would you rather fly 737 in Nigeria for 2000 US or maybe live in Tung Chung, and earn three times as much in your first month?
You think it is a choice between what? A380 Captain at Korean, 777 at Delta and DEFO at Cathay??? In what world do you live?
It is so ironic that you work and live at the international HQ of Capitalism and you don't understand market forces. Not one bit.
Also, you know very well that 12 day patterns on the 747 are as rare as snow on christmas in HK. Complete BS.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 8th Aug 2016 at 02:12.
So these are the candidates we are gunning for; 737 drivers from Nigeria?
I would call that market forces with C-scale.
Another definition of market forces would be for the 737 driver from Lagos to head for the Middle East rather than CX (unless he got rejected by the ME3).
Further there are market forces and there is a reasonable standard of living.
Please don't lecture me on market forces since I actually have a degree in economics - do you?
P.s.: I am a B-Scaler and I actually enjoy flying the line with my colleagues (despite the usual BS with management); if I was on C-scale I'd be gone to a place where I can live in a house or villa - here we go again...market forces
I would call that market forces with C-scale.
Another definition of market forces would be for the 737 driver from Lagos to head for the Middle East rather than CX (unless he got rejected by the ME3).
Further there are market forces and there is a reasonable standard of living.
Please don't lecture me on market forces since I actually have a degree in economics - do you?
P.s.: I am a B-Scaler and I actually enjoy flying the line with my colleagues (despite the usual BS with management); if I was on C-scale I'd be gone to a place where I can live in a house or villa - here we go again...market forces
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You claim that being a DEFO at Cathay is worse than a position in the Middle East.
This is a valid position, but you make it sound like everybody who disagrees is an idiot and doesn't know what he is getting into at in Cathay.
Think for a second who you actually would choose over Cathay. And what kind of place, culture, economy, etc.
Also, that wasn't really the question of just dreamer, right?
Why is somebody who flies a 737 in Nigeria not an acceptable candidate for a job at Cathay? Bit snobbish, isn't it?
What I find so arrogant, so unbearably patronising is that people like you think they have some sort of superior knowledge, some sort of oversight. Tell me, you ever worked at in there ME? Instead of giving honest and open answers about the real conditions, you try to spin it, you use this forum for childish propaganda.
This is a valid position, but you make it sound like everybody who disagrees is an idiot and doesn't know what he is getting into at in Cathay.
Think for a second who you actually would choose over Cathay. And what kind of place, culture, economy, etc.
Also, that wasn't really the question of just dreamer, right?
Why is somebody who flies a 737 in Nigeria not an acceptable candidate for a job at Cathay? Bit snobbish, isn't it?
What I find so arrogant, so unbearably patronising is that people like you think they have some sort of superior knowledge, some sort of oversight. Tell me, you ever worked at in there ME? Instead of giving honest and open answers about the real conditions, you try to spin it, you use this forum for childish propaganda.
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"Further there are market forces and there is a reasonable standard of living."
This statement of yours proves black on white that you DO NOT understand market forces.
This statement of yours proves black on white that you DO NOT understand market forces.
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You're not entirely wrong, STW, but not entirely right either.
Sure, for someone with 0 experience, CX is a great first airline. And I can't understand how some of our SOs can complain about their package. Sure it's a struggle, but it usually is when you're 20 and it's your first job.
The DEFO thing is different.
Some pilots already have a stable job, fly 320, have lot of experience. And while CX looks attractive thanks to the good salary and the wide bodies, when you do the maths, you realize it could not be worth giving up your home country to come to HK.
And these guys still have options: apply to a major in their home country, go to the middle east, get a contract in China.
We can even compare the different options:
- A legacy carrier in your home country should be a no brainer, unless they are in the edge of bankruptcy.
- Middle east: less pollution than HK, different fun than HK (less drinking, more golfing), too hot summers, desertic scenery compared to green HK, tax free salary as compared to 15% in HK, arab/muslim culture compared to chinese-cannot-attitude, rosters as bad as 330 here, time to command much shorter, impossible to commute, product definitely better than CX, massive expansion plans, bigger accommodation.
- contract in China:
Better money.
Commuting contract.
Not a career but just a 4 years contract.
It's easy to be happy with CX when you're an A-scale based Captain, but go and talk to your expat SO and JFO to see if they are happy.
CX used to be an airline where people would work hard to get into, now it's just the airline where you end up when you don't have a choice. And that's basically what STW is implying with 'market force'
Sure, for someone with 0 experience, CX is a great first airline. And I can't understand how some of our SOs can complain about their package. Sure it's a struggle, but it usually is when you're 20 and it's your first job.
The DEFO thing is different.
Some pilots already have a stable job, fly 320, have lot of experience. And while CX looks attractive thanks to the good salary and the wide bodies, when you do the maths, you realize it could not be worth giving up your home country to come to HK.
And these guys still have options: apply to a major in their home country, go to the middle east, get a contract in China.
We can even compare the different options:
- A legacy carrier in your home country should be a no brainer, unless they are in the edge of bankruptcy.
- Middle east: less pollution than HK, different fun than HK (less drinking, more golfing), too hot summers, desertic scenery compared to green HK, tax free salary as compared to 15% in HK, arab/muslim culture compared to chinese-cannot-attitude, rosters as bad as 330 here, time to command much shorter, impossible to commute, product definitely better than CX, massive expansion plans, bigger accommodation.
- contract in China:
Better money.
Commuting contract.
Not a career but just a 4 years contract.
It's easy to be happy with CX when you're an A-scale based Captain, but go and talk to your expat SO and JFO to see if they are happy.
CX used to be an airline where people would work hard to get into, now it's just the airline where you end up when you don't have a choice. And that's basically what STW is implying with 'market force'
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Kirk,
I suggest to consider:
"when you do the maths, you realize it could not be worth giving up your home country to come to HK."
- I disagree. I think after so many years in Asia we lost contact with reality. you would not believe what kind of contracts are out there. Plus you might not be in your own country to begin with, on some ****ty low cost slave contract somewhere else. I don't think we will see a lot of BA 737 F/O's joining, will we?
"contract in China:
Better money.
Commuting contract.
Not a career but just a 4 years contract."
-Not an option unless you have wide body PIC time, plus no seniority, poor contract compliance by the employer, medical takes ages,sick pay limited, you live at least partly in a way worse place than HK, etc etc.And the money is not necessarily better, there are hidden costs and the agencies put everything as cash value into the advertised sums.
Again, I just find we should give honest information on these forums and not use them as political instruments. Up to the individual to decide. Mainly because it clearly isn't working, is it?
And this " If I had/would/should/could" attitude I find extremely annoying. But that might just be me.
Why not tell everyone exactly what he has to expect? Without exaggerating, just the plain truth.
Like:
-if you come as a DEFO to Cathay expect 10-20 years to command ( read: nobody knows, but probably > 12)
- expect to live in a sterile suburb 30-45 min train away among Chinese if you don't want to spend own money or if you are not single. If your partner works different story.
- expect 13 -15 days off on the 747 incl leave
- pay 50-150 k over your career
- maybe more housing, maybe not
- no change of type possibly, forget about basing
- commuting possible in Asia, hard borderline crazy to Australia, insane to Europe
- living cost high
- pollution
- schools cost money
- surprise, surprise: it helps if you actually like Hong Kong
Done.
I suggest to consider:
"when you do the maths, you realize it could not be worth giving up your home country to come to HK."
- I disagree. I think after so many years in Asia we lost contact with reality. you would not believe what kind of contracts are out there. Plus you might not be in your own country to begin with, on some ****ty low cost slave contract somewhere else. I don't think we will see a lot of BA 737 F/O's joining, will we?
"contract in China:
Better money.
Commuting contract.
Not a career but just a 4 years contract."
-Not an option unless you have wide body PIC time, plus no seniority, poor contract compliance by the employer, medical takes ages,sick pay limited, you live at least partly in a way worse place than HK, etc etc.And the money is not necessarily better, there are hidden costs and the agencies put everything as cash value into the advertised sums.
Again, I just find we should give honest information on these forums and not use them as political instruments. Up to the individual to decide. Mainly because it clearly isn't working, is it?
And this " If I had/would/should/could" attitude I find extremely annoying. But that might just be me.
Why not tell everyone exactly what he has to expect? Without exaggerating, just the plain truth.
Like:
-if you come as a DEFO to Cathay expect 10-20 years to command ( read: nobody knows, but probably > 12)
- expect to live in a sterile suburb 30-45 min train away among Chinese if you don't want to spend own money or if you are not single. If your partner works different story.
- expect 13 -15 days off on the 747 incl leave
- pay 50-150 k over your career
- maybe more housing, maybe not
- no change of type possibly, forget about basing
- commuting possible in Asia, hard borderline crazy to Australia, insane to Europe
- living cost high
- pollution
- schools cost money
- surprise, surprise: it helps if you actually like Hong Kong
Done.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 8th Aug 2016 at 03:27.
its�5perworddammit
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So why'd you join on B-scale?
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STW
I think your intentions are good, but you've made 1 fatal mistake - you make reference to specific dollar amounts:
To be fair, you mention the true issue:
This is the problem all along, and there's so many of us whose fingers are sore from repeating ourselves, so once again, all you wannabees should listen now:
- Don't be fooled by the dollar amounts quoted.
- DO NOT simply convert the HK$ salary and allowances to your home currency, unless you also convert your potential HK$ expenses to your home currency. That includes what you've got "left over" in your bank account after standard expenses like accommodation and food.
- Your left over cash is for living/lifestyle and ultimately savings. And don't think for a minute you can cut back on living/lifestyle things - maybe for a short while, but long term it's impossible. It's these living/lifestyle things where you will likely underestimate expenditure.
I think your intentions are good, but you've made 1 fatal mistake - you make reference to specific dollar amounts:
pay 50-150 k over your career
live in Tung Chung, and earn three times as much in your first month?
living cost high
- Don't be fooled by the dollar amounts quoted.
- DO NOT simply convert the HK$ salary and allowances to your home currency, unless you also convert your potential HK$ expenses to your home currency. That includes what you've got "left over" in your bank account after standard expenses like accommodation and food.
- Your left over cash is for living/lifestyle and ultimately savings. And don't think for a minute you can cut back on living/lifestyle things - maybe for a short while, but long term it's impossible. It's these living/lifestyle things where you will likely underestimate expenditure.
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Ultimately, and undeniably;
The DEFO package will, for some, be a big improvement, and will be a worthwhile pursuit. For others, it won't. There are many factors to affect which side of the balance one sits.
If you don't agree, then you've been here too long.
I don't see what's so difficult to understand.
One example: I can't see a wave of 10 year United FOs applying. I can, however, see a wave of Ozzies flying for LCCs around Asia throwing their cap in the ring.
The number of applicants will speak volumes. If they need to tweak the package to usher-in more applicants, they will. I suspect, however, that won't be necessary.
The DEFO package will, for some, be a big improvement, and will be a worthwhile pursuit. For others, it won't. There are many factors to affect which side of the balance one sits.
If you don't agree, then you've been here too long.
I don't see what's so difficult to understand.
One example: I can't see a wave of 10 year United FOs applying. I can, however, see a wave of Ozzies flying for LCCs around Asia throwing their cap in the ring.
The number of applicants will speak volumes. If they need to tweak the package to usher-in more applicants, they will. I suspect, however, that won't be necessary.
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Interesting banter. Like I said I'd suggest you talk to someone who works here in and in HKG.
As far as the facts go you have a significant amount of highly experienced people on a base who are deferring command opportunities in HKG WITH full expat housing available to them. Others who had been here for quite a while yet bolted looking for greener pastures. That ought to tell you something right there of where your dream might go.
As far as the facts go you have a significant amount of highly experienced people on a base who are deferring command opportunities in HKG WITH full expat housing available to them. Others who had been here for quite a while yet bolted looking for greener pastures. That ought to tell you something right there of where your dream might go.