DEFO back at CX
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Always easy to spot someone who has nothing really useful to say when they don't debate the issues just attack the person. Please explain what is incorrect in my statements?
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You think?
The chessboard was set and their moves are tactically planned out.
Rule by constant referendum does not allow long-game planning by the AOA leadership. The split demographic and wide-spread interests among the members assures than no long-term mandate can be given to any committee.
Hence running around like chickens oblivious to the wagons circling.
The chessboard was set and their moves are tactically planned out.
Rule by constant referendum does not allow long-game planning by the AOA leadership. The split demographic and wide-spread interests among the members assures than no long-term mandate can be given to any committee.
Hence running around like chickens oblivious to the wagons circling.
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Sam Ting Wong
You are correct in that I cannot prove the training ban is having an effect of $10billion.
From 1990-2015 the average growth rate was 5.6%. This period included The Asian Contagion, 9-11, SARS, GFC and Swine Flu.
The year before the training ban we grew at 5%. The year after it was introduced we shrunk by 0.7%. We are giving 4 extra aircraft to KA next year which equates to shrinkage of about 2.7%.
So yes, I think I can categorically say the TB is having an effect. I think I can further say that two years(2015/2016) of almost zero growth, vs long term average of 5.6%, equates to a 'missed opportunity' of over 10% more revenue.
There will always be applicants - the current problem is getting them trained. I have heard the recruitment target was lowered by over a 100 this year due inadequate training resources. Ironically, as I have shown in the past, hiring DEFOs in a training constrained system is better for those already employed but not yet Captains as it leads to quicker commands!
I have shown in the past that management spent approx $10 for every $1 they 'saved' in the disputes of 1999 and 2001. It's unfortunate that we have come to a situation where the pilots are standing up for themselves against a corporate culture that would rather diminish returns than be seen to acquiesce!
The TB is having an effect - unfortunately the 'pain' is being felt by both sides. But I would ask you, what is the alternative?
From 1990-2015 the average growth rate was 5.6%. This period included The Asian Contagion, 9-11, SARS, GFC and Swine Flu.
The year before the training ban we grew at 5%. The year after it was introduced we shrunk by 0.7%. We are giving 4 extra aircraft to KA next year which equates to shrinkage of about 2.7%.
So yes, I think I can categorically say the TB is having an effect. I think I can further say that two years(2015/2016) of almost zero growth, vs long term average of 5.6%, equates to a 'missed opportunity' of over 10% more revenue.
There will always be applicants - the current problem is getting them trained. I have heard the recruitment target was lowered by over a 100 this year due inadequate training resources. Ironically, as I have shown in the past, hiring DEFOs in a training constrained system is better for those already employed but not yet Captains as it leads to quicker commands!
I have shown in the past that management spent approx $10 for every $1 they 'saved' in the disputes of 1999 and 2001. It's unfortunate that we have come to a situation where the pilots are standing up for themselves against a corporate culture that would rather diminish returns than be seen to acquiesce!
The TB is having an effect - unfortunately the 'pain' is being felt by both sides. But I would ask you, what is the alternative?
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Got to love the new mitigation measure for purely comical purposes. A solution that costs them more than solving the original problem.
Any upgraded KA captain or newly hired KA pilot will be on a superior package than what the AOA was originally asking for.
Greater salary package.
EFP at 75 hours and HDP commencing at sign on.
A better, negotiated rostering practice (that ironically was won after years of contract compliance).
25 year mortgage.
Ability to re-mortgage.
10 weeks annual leave.
Guaranteed 13th month.
RA65 without having to sign any benefits away.
Child university education.
Trial work share arrangement.
And for many, a travel fund.
The Cathay pilot attrition rate in 2016 is nearly 50 percent higher than in 2015. Hard to imagine that this is a useful tactic to stop the bleeding.
Once again CX management show its nothing to do with money. It's all about loss of face and retention of a perceived power.
On another angle, it'd be interesting to know if the fuel hedging contract applied to the entire group or just Cathay Pacific.
Any upgraded KA captain or newly hired KA pilot will be on a superior package than what the AOA was originally asking for.
Greater salary package.
EFP at 75 hours and HDP commencing at sign on.
A better, negotiated rostering practice (that ironically was won after years of contract compliance).
25 year mortgage.
Ability to re-mortgage.
10 weeks annual leave.
Guaranteed 13th month.
RA65 without having to sign any benefits away.
Child university education.
Trial work share arrangement.
And for many, a travel fund.
The Cathay pilot attrition rate in 2016 is nearly 50 percent higher than in 2015. Hard to imagine that this is a useful tactic to stop the bleeding.
Once again CX management show its nothing to do with money. It's all about loss of face and retention of a perceived power.
On another angle, it'd be interesting to know if the fuel hedging contract applied to the entire group or just Cathay Pacific.
Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 11th Aug 2016 at 10:52.
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Numero,
the point where we differ is simply the question if this current war is in the interest of us, and I mean all of us. I see an obsessed concentration on improving C conditions in the current negotiations. It is common belief that C pilots are beeing exploited, I disagree. No C pilot ever received a cut, no C pilot was forced to sign the contract. Ironically, a lot of B pilots now rejected the TA offer, because they eventually realised that the bill for higher C conditions will land on the B table.Since introduction of C I listen to indignant B colleagues lecturing C pilots how inferior their package is, how unacceptable. I think this is wrong and might have created excuberant expectations.I understand that this might sound cynical, but I can assure you I am all in favor of sustainable improvements of HKPA. I respect C pilots, I think they are unlucky in a way, like I was unlucky to have joined at a time with no more A scale. I am at no point suggesting to sell any group out, I would never object any raise for C in order to get more for myself. I am just saying this is not my war anymore, I want to go home.
I concur completely with Anotherday, competitiveness is key.
Time will tell.
the point where we differ is simply the question if this current war is in the interest of us, and I mean all of us. I see an obsessed concentration on improving C conditions in the current negotiations. It is common belief that C pilots are beeing exploited, I disagree. No C pilot ever received a cut, no C pilot was forced to sign the contract. Ironically, a lot of B pilots now rejected the TA offer, because they eventually realised that the bill for higher C conditions will land on the B table.Since introduction of C I listen to indignant B colleagues lecturing C pilots how inferior their package is, how unacceptable. I think this is wrong and might have created excuberant expectations.I understand that this might sound cynical, but I can assure you I am all in favor of sustainable improvements of HKPA. I respect C pilots, I think they are unlucky in a way, like I was unlucky to have joined at a time with no more A scale. I am at no point suggesting to sell any group out, I would never object any raise for C in order to get more for myself. I am just saying this is not my war anymore, I want to go home.
I concur completely with Anotherday, competitiveness is key.
Time will tell.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 11th Aug 2016 at 12:56.
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STW:
But what calibre of applicant does such a remuneration package attract? By CX's own admission the standards & experience levels are so low that they need to open up to DEFO's (Or...was that the plan all along since the concept of C Scale???) CX could pay even less than the C Scale package & still get applicants. Case in point is the number of applicants before the minuscule housing allowance was even offered! Sure, they'll be even more inexperienced & maybe able to accept the package due their partner has a good salary, or he/she is a retired banker at age 40 something.
And any DEFO leaving a legacy airline or the vast majority of airlines give up a seniority number only to start again at the bottom of a seniority list which equates to at least 12+ years till upgrade also questions the calibre of applicant in my opinion. Not to mention probably leaving your home country to live in HK, the most expensive city in the world to live in as an expat, on that remuneration package?
When the package was far better (B Scale) they attracted the calibre of pilot who deserved that package by virtue of experience, qualifications & credentials. C Scale does not. I can't see how anyone can say differently.
My experience from meeting C Scale guys & catching up with friends around the globe on B Scale is that it's those on C Scale are only too quick to moan to anyone who'll listen about how tough life is & how they're all off to EK to get away from CX. It's the B Scale guys who agree with you & choose not to judge a guy's decision. They just want to get on with it. But it's been their constant complaints that drive their angst.
I disagree: CX could have maintained B Scale when we consider the other full service airlines of the world competing in the same market, distant from the Asian Boom region. Add to that money thrown away due fuel hedging & international fines for deliberately breaking the law for price fixing. Yet its the pilots who suffer salary cuts?? Maintaining B Scale "might have" made for slightly lesser profits (but profits all the same), less pay increases to upper management & less bonuses, if other departments were held accountable. Let's call C Scale for what it is: a money grab at the expense of standards.
There is no shortage of applicants, which leads back to my original claim that C scale is sufficient to attract enough new pilots.
And any DEFO leaving a legacy airline or the vast majority of airlines give up a seniority number only to start again at the bottom of a seniority list which equates to at least 12+ years till upgrade also questions the calibre of applicant in my opinion. Not to mention probably leaving your home country to live in HK, the most expensive city in the world to live in as an expat, on that remuneration package?
When the package was far better (B Scale) they attracted the calibre of pilot who deserved that package by virtue of experience, qualifications & credentials. C Scale does not. I can't see how anyone can say differently.
My experience from meeting C Scale guys & catching up with friends around the globe on B Scale is that it's those on C Scale are only too quick to moan to anyone who'll listen about how tough life is & how they're all off to EK to get away from CX. It's the B Scale guys who agree with you & choose not to judge a guy's decision. They just want to get on with it. But it's been their constant complaints that drive their angst.
I disagree: CX could have maintained B Scale when we consider the other full service airlines of the world competing in the same market, distant from the Asian Boom region. Add to that money thrown away due fuel hedging & international fines for deliberately breaking the law for price fixing. Yet its the pilots who suffer salary cuts?? Maintaining B Scale "might have" made for slightly lesser profits (but profits all the same), less pay increases to upper management & less bonuses, if other departments were held accountable. Let's call C Scale for what it is: a money grab at the expense of standards.
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What was the point of the industrial action? To improve conditions. Two years later this has failed. Upgrades are delayed, no increase to HKPA, no pay rises.
Those who voted no failed to realize that may have had an adverse effect on the company but not on the individual managers. So they manage the scenario as it is. However for the pilots we lost out on the benefits.
The committee has tried but failed to deliver. Shall we now keep butting our head against a brick wall assuming something will change to our favor?
Those who voted no failed to realize that may have had an adverse effect on the company but not on the individual managers. So they manage the scenario as it is. However for the pilots we lost out on the benefits.
The committee has tried but failed to deliver. Shall we now keep butting our head against a brick wall assuming something will change to our favor?
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SumTingWong
With a lack of fortitude, spine, and appalling English, most of us would rather that you do do exactly that, go home, wherever the f that may be, (but sounds like Sham Shui Po or Mong Kok!) and leave flying to those who can, and are also prepared to defend their contract.
I am just saying this is not my war anymore, I want to go home.
Last edited by LongTimeInCX; 11th Aug 2016 at 20:40.
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iPad
You've clearly got a grasp of the non-essentials having been here 2 minutes
Wrong.
There's a couple of managers who will be looking over their shoulders. They are having to justify why $x+ are being spent on outsourcing training, when an agreement with the pilots would only have cost the group $x-. Having to justify why control over the pilots is costing more dollars is a good thing, is going to be hard to justify. Forget rationalizing it against the fuel hedging loss debacle. Amateurs!
No you didn't.
If you hadn't joined on such woeful conditions, we wouldn't as a group be having to fight to improve yours, and stop ours being dragged down to yours.
Seriously I wonder where these brushwingers get their brains from.
Stay the course. Just wait for the Company to realise they both need the goodwill from the pilots along with TB/CC lifted, and stop whinging about benefits you never had not being given to you.
Oi veh!
What was the point of the industrial action?
Those who voted no failed to realize that may have had an adverse effect on the company but not on the individual managers.
There's a couple of managers who will be looking over their shoulders. They are having to justify why $x+ are being spent on outsourcing training, when an agreement with the pilots would only have cost the group $x-. Having to justify why control over the pilots is costing more dollars is a good thing, is going to be hard to justify. Forget rationalizing it against the fuel hedging loss debacle. Amateurs!
However for the pilots we lost out on the benefits.
If you hadn't joined on such woeful conditions, we wouldn't as a group be having to fight to improve yours, and stop ours being dragged down to yours.
Seriously I wonder where these brushwingers get their brains from.
Stay the course. Just wait for the Company to realise they both need the goodwill from the pilots along with TB/CC lifted, and stop whinging about benefits you never had not being given to you.
Oi veh!
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Some people need to see the forest for the trees.
KA is being expanded because it's now Cathay Dragon the regional extension of Cathay Pacific.
You do see this right, the airline that is almost identical to CX.
You spend a fortune rebranding it and then do nothing with it to promote it.
Oh let's expand Cathay Dragon because of the TB, ffs are some of you that clueless.
KA is being expanded because it's now Cathay Dragon the regional extension of Cathay Pacific.
You do see this right, the airline that is almost identical to CX.
You spend a fortune rebranding it and then do nothing with it to promote it.
Oh let's expand Cathay Dragon because of the TB, ffs are some of you that clueless.
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What do you mean when "locals don't have the experience"? For what?
KA hires DEFO's with possibly less than 100 hrs in an aircraft (total) and very possible ZERO solo time !!! They are MPL cadets....
Like I said earlier, every last one of the CX SO's should apply for the DEFO spots as, if KA can hire DEFO's with < 100hrs, every last one of the CX SO's is qualified as the precedent has been set by KA (100% owned and managed by CX) as well as the HK CAD would have signed off on the program.
Take this to the anti-discrimination board !!
KA hires DEFO's with possibly less than 100 hrs in an aircraft (total) and very possible ZERO solo time !!! They are MPL cadets....
Like I said earlier, every last one of the CX SO's should apply for the DEFO spots as, if KA can hire DEFO's with < 100hrs, every last one of the CX SO's is qualified as the precedent has been set by KA (100% owned and managed by CX) as well as the HK CAD would have signed off on the program.
Take this to the anti-discrimination board !!
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Webslinger
Please precisely tell me where my argument is "academic and childish" ???
Fact: KA does not have/use SO's
Fact: KA has been for some time now hiring DEFO's because they do nothire/require SO's.
Fact: They bring in both cadets (same stream as CX) as well as MPL candidates.
Fact: MPL candidates can have less than 100 hrs total time in an aircraft..
Fact: The above MPL candidate is not required to have any "solo" time..
Fact: Full cadets (no experience) show up at CX/KA with less than 200 hrs total time... (so much more experience than the MPL right !)
Fact: These candidates, at KA, go straight into the RHS of the A320 & in some cases A330..
Did I get something wrong ?
Fact: KA does not have/use SO's
Fact: KA has been for some time now hiring DEFO's because they do nothire/require SO's.
Fact: They bring in both cadets (same stream as CX) as well as MPL candidates.
Fact: MPL candidates can have less than 100 hrs total time in an aircraft..
Fact: The above MPL candidate is not required to have any "solo" time..
Fact: Full cadets (no experience) show up at CX/KA with less than 200 hrs total time... (so much more experience than the MPL right !)
Fact: These candidates, at KA, go straight into the RHS of the A320 & in some cases A330..
Did I get something wrong ?
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Only an accountant would argue that it is safe to permit someone with 100 hours to occupy the right seat of a 320/330. Any pilot manager in a position of authority that sanctions this should have his pilot credentials withdrawn.
If only we were governed by a professional association (bar, college) this crap would not go on. Hopefully, someday......
The FAA has finally put a stop to this insanity, hopefully it will spread to other jurisdictions; but don't hold your breath.
Dumb accountants come up with these cost saving ideas, but the sad part is that pilot managers attach their stamp of "approval".
If only we were governed by a professional association (bar, college) this crap would not go on. Hopefully, someday......
The FAA has finally put a stop to this insanity, hopefully it will spread to other jurisdictions; but don't hold your breath.
Dumb accountants come up with these cost saving ideas, but the sad part is that pilot managers attach their stamp of "approval".