AOA funding of UK retirement age appeal
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Albatross
Either you put your name on the Petition or you didn't.
If you are in the first category, you can express some disappointment with the decision to fund the Appeal. However, when expressing that disappontment it must be tempered by the fact "due process" occurred and not even 1:10 of your fellow members agreed, alternatively, could be @rsed, to sign. Whilst the GC didn't need a mandate from the membership to fund the Appeal, the Petition's failure empowers them even further. It is, therefore, wholly inappropriate to "slag-off" the GC for continuing to fund the Appeal.
If you are in the second category and didn't sign, I suggest you locate your "neck" switch and select "wind-in".
As an aside, should the rumours be true and a Contract is stuffed in my mailbox formalizing 55+ dropping onto B and C scale and the removal of BPP for freighter capts over 55, or the removal of BPP in toto, I shall be very interested to hear of Charlie's response. Should Charlie wish to continue his Appeal on the basis of the pay cut, despite being a "funding skeptic", I might just utter under my breath.... "go get the funking barstewards Charlie
"
If you are in the first category, you can express some disappointment with the decision to fund the Appeal. However, when expressing that disappontment it must be tempered by the fact "due process" occurred and not even 1:10 of your fellow members agreed, alternatively, could be @rsed, to sign. Whilst the GC didn't need a mandate from the membership to fund the Appeal, the Petition's failure empowers them even further. It is, therefore, wholly inappropriate to "slag-off" the GC for continuing to fund the Appeal.
If you are in the second category and didn't sign, I suggest you locate your "neck" switch and select "wind-in".
As an aside, should the rumours be true and a Contract is stuffed in my mailbox formalizing 55+ dropping onto B and C scale and the removal of BPP for freighter capts over 55, or the removal of BPP in toto, I shall be very interested to hear of Charlie's response. Should Charlie wish to continue his Appeal on the basis of the pay cut, despite being a "funding skeptic", I might just utter under my breath.... "go get the funking barstewards Charlie
"
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Stillalbatross
Your comments straight back at you, because I was one of the FO's affected in the late 90's. So now you and the rest want to shaft me again using the "it's in the contract" argument, so that you can spend 20+ years as a Captain, when the retirement age does go to 65. Who will be the "fatcat's" then? Having had mortgages paid for by Cathay and still no doubt whining.
By the way, does BYPASS not mean that you have been bypassed. You have not been bypassed by an extendee, you are only "bypassed" if someone junior to you has been promoted out of seniority ahead of you!
Your comments straight back at you, because I was one of the FO's affected in the late 90's. So now you and the rest want to shaft me again using the "it's in the contract" argument, so that you can spend 20+ years as a Captain, when the retirement age does go to 65. Who will be the "fatcat's" then? Having had mortgages paid for by Cathay and still no doubt whining.
By the way, does BYPASS not mean that you have been bypassed. You have not been bypassed by an extendee, you are only "bypassed" if someone junior to you has been promoted out of seniority ahead of you!
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Iceman
Please don't confuse this post as defending Albatross's views.
Point taken on the use of the "By Pass" phrase. However, I imagine it used because in my version of the COS, the clause dealing with extendees is labelled "BYPASS PAY".
Your version of COS may well differ and all versions may be subject to change
Point taken on the use of the "By Pass" phrase. However, I imagine it used because in my version of the COS, the clause dealing with extendees is labelled "BYPASS PAY".
Your version of COS may well differ and all versions may be subject to change
If someone joins CX at the age of 25-30 as opposed to 35-40 they already have the opportunity to work many more years in a company with a relatively short time to command. In the past when people were required to have much higher experience levels they joined at 35-45 because of the higher salary. CX has cut that drastically and now some of these guys (with up to 14 years to command) find they need to work on.
"expense of every S/O and F/O who is currently in the company. They suffer the greatest loss"
A lot of SO's and FO's will earn less for a period but will still have far longer on a higher command pay than many of the extendees.
Having never been able to afford a Porsche 911 it is good to see a young Captain (up from SO) driving into the CX car park with another 20 years plus of command if he wants.
"expense of every S/O and F/O who is currently in the company. They suffer the greatest loss"
A lot of SO's and FO's will earn less for a period but will still have far longer on a higher command pay than many of the extendees.
Having never been able to afford a Porsche 911 it is good to see a young Captain (up from SO) driving into the CX car park with another 20 years plus of command if he wants.
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Fair deal for everybody. NO GROUP SHOULD HAVE TO GIVE UP ANYTHING. How do we achieve that?. Junior crew can't be expected to disadvantaged and likewise the more senior crew. There has to be a happy median.
Any ideas
eg Increased graduated pay scales for FO's after a certain years of service.
Nothing really makes up for a delayed command, but if its going to happen we need some compensation if BPP is scraped.
Any ideas
eg Increased graduated pay scales for FO's after a certain years of service.
Nothing really makes up for a delayed command, but if its going to happen we need some compensation if BPP is scraped.
OK still-born-albatross...
You've driven me to it....
"I want to work to 65, I know it's going to shaft you but at this stage in life I really don't f*cking care.................................."
From the mindless ramblings of acerbic hatred that you direct towards your colleagues, you are clearly still reasonably young, in your early 30s at the most I would say; however, you have the intellect of a teenager.
A lot has changed in the world and indeed this company over the last 20 years.
Since the heyday of the late 80s we have seen
1. The introduction of the B (and subsequent) scales.
2. The introduction of ASL.
3. The slashing of A scale salaries in 1999.
4. The disaster of July 2001.
5. SARS
6. The current economic mess.
I find it hard to imagine that anyone one of us can have organised his retirement provisions to cater for where we find ourselves now.
Everyone suffered as a result of the ASL shambles, commands slipped almost overnight from 5 years to 10 years. Guys grumbled but really we just got on with life, with an expectation that retirement would begin at 55 with much less gold in the pot than previously expected, or hoped for.
The opportunity to retire at 65 is becoming the world-wide norm. It happened recently at British Airways and yes command time there has slipped. These things happen, it IS going to happen here, one day.... maybe sooner, maybe later than we all think. But yes, it is going to happen. I will pity those of you who joined and whose command has now slipped to perhaps the age of 40. Most of us here who have been lucky enough to get a command were in our 40's when the day came, why should you be any different.
I'm afraid that it is the narrow, short sightedness of the likes of you that have made my mind up.
"I really don't care, get some time in!"
You've driven me to it....
"I want to work to 65, I know it's going to shaft you but at this stage in life I really don't f*cking care.................................."
From the mindless ramblings of acerbic hatred that you direct towards your colleagues, you are clearly still reasonably young, in your early 30s at the most I would say; however, you have the intellect of a teenager.
A lot has changed in the world and indeed this company over the last 20 years.
Since the heyday of the late 80s we have seen
1. The introduction of the B (and subsequent) scales.
2. The introduction of ASL.
3. The slashing of A scale salaries in 1999.
4. The disaster of July 2001.
5. SARS
6. The current economic mess.
I find it hard to imagine that anyone one of us can have organised his retirement provisions to cater for where we find ourselves now.
Everyone suffered as a result of the ASL shambles, commands slipped almost overnight from 5 years to 10 years. Guys grumbled but really we just got on with life, with an expectation that retirement would begin at 55 with much less gold in the pot than previously expected, or hoped for.
The opportunity to retire at 65 is becoming the world-wide norm. It happened recently at British Airways and yes command time there has slipped. These things happen, it IS going to happen here, one day.... maybe sooner, maybe later than we all think. But yes, it is going to happen. I will pity those of you who joined and whose command has now slipped to perhaps the age of 40. Most of us here who have been lucky enough to get a command were in our 40's when the day came, why should you be any different.
I'm afraid that it is the narrow, short sightedness of the likes of you that have made my mind up.
"I really don't care, get some time in!"
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Max Reheat.
Bravo. Great to see someone call a spade a spade. Especially seeing as how you were brave enough to reveal your identity by telling us which flight you were about to operate on another thread. Another hint; when you are on pprune, your handle has a green button next to it. This is a great tool for name elimination.
Either you are very clever (the flight thing was a cunning ploy), very brave or very dumb. Why don't you now just change your pprune handle to your real name? That way all your FO's can be forewarned of your great talent for CRM.
You sound extremely confident that RA65 is coming soon. Do you know something we don't? There must be something in a new management rule book on downsizing for recessions that says "keep your most expensive employees at the expense of your cheaper employee's even if you have a legitimate way of seeing them off. This is the secret to cost cutting". Yeah right. Good luck with that.
Bravo. Great to see someone call a spade a spade. Especially seeing as how you were brave enough to reveal your identity by telling us which flight you were about to operate on another thread. Another hint; when you are on pprune, your handle has a green button next to it. This is a great tool for name elimination.
Either you are very clever (the flight thing was a cunning ploy), very brave or very dumb. Why don't you now just change your pprune handle to your real name? That way all your FO's can be forewarned of your great talent for CRM.
You sound extremely confident that RA65 is coming soon. Do you know something we don't? There must be something in a new management rule book on downsizing for recessions that says "keep your most expensive employees at the expense of your cheaper employee's even if you have a legitimate way of seeing them off. This is the secret to cost cutting". Yeah right. Good luck with that.
SFGDOG,
I'm not afraid of people knowing my identity... really.
On the expense of individuals within a workforce. Don't look at the expense, look at the value.
There are some who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
We have too many of those posting on this site.
I'm not afraid of people knowing my identity... really.
On the expense of individuals within a workforce. Don't look at the expense, look at the value.
There are some who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
We have too many of those posting on this site.
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SFGDOG, you sound like the teenager you probably are. 'Oohhh, I 'might' know who you are....??? pathetic. 65 is about to be the done deal boy. As for 'keeping your most expensive employees'....they won't really be all that expensive at that point will they? Regardless of the facts (yea, I know, inconvenient aren't they) the issue of age discrimination is basically forcing the issue on the company. The fact that you can't see it coming is the same problem the dinosaurs had millions of years ago (nice pun don't you think?).
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ATY,
yeah, done deal. Why don't you go and tell NR that? Or better still, tell the couple of very senior trainers who were just told by RH and NR, no extensions on anything. Nada. Not even on the freighter. I guess NR must be keeping his cunning plan carefully hidden because these guys were given no comfort whatsoever. Perhaps if you keep repeating it long enough it will eventually happen.
By the way. I do agree with you, RA65 will happen one day. But only when it suits management. Even if CM's appeal is successful, there is still a long road from that to adoption of RA65 across the company. Legal processes are anything but speedy and at the moment there is just no benefit in it for CX (yes I think they will survive without all that experience and Max reheats CRM). They will therefore take their time with this until their hand is forced or they see some financial or operational imperitive for the company. It's just business. End of story.
yeah, done deal. Why don't you go and tell NR that? Or better still, tell the couple of very senior trainers who were just told by RH and NR, no extensions on anything. Nada. Not even on the freighter. I guess NR must be keeping his cunning plan carefully hidden because these guys were given no comfort whatsoever. Perhaps if you keep repeating it long enough it will eventually happen.
By the way. I do agree with you, RA65 will happen one day. But only when it suits management. Even if CM's appeal is successful, there is still a long road from that to adoption of RA65 across the company. Legal processes are anything but speedy and at the moment there is just no benefit in it for CX (yes I think they will survive without all that experience and Max reheats CRM). They will therefore take their time with this until their hand is forced or they see some financial or operational imperitive for the company. It's just business. End of story.
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ATY
I sense you would welcome a shift to RA65; and if that is at the expense of BPP and not a slip, but a massive shift, in Command times, then, in your mind: so be it. With the amount of litigation, particularly the BPP for FO's resultant of the +55 on the freighter, clearly something is going to give.
Obviously, this will be a bitter, if not unpalatable pill for Junior Crew. However, perhaps with some justication, you say this pill must be swallowed because; "the issue of age discrimination is basically forcing the issue on the company."
However, surely the company is going to continue to cut your pay on your 55th birthday and most probably no longer contribute to your pension scheme, limit your health care and remove your loss of licence benefits. Are you not being somewhat disingenuous to trumpet any formalization of the current scheme (without BPP) as a triumph over discrimination?
There may well be a forced change to our COS, but please, don't try and tell us this some good over evil thing..... it is merely another stunt by the company to enhance the bottom line by avoiding/eliminating BPP and getting an A-Scaler to work for B or C Scale lite.
Obviously, this will be a bitter, if not unpalatable pill for Junior Crew. However, perhaps with some justication, you say this pill must be swallowed because; "the issue of age discrimination is basically forcing the issue on the company."
However, surely the company is going to continue to cut your pay on your 55th birthday and most probably no longer contribute to your pension scheme, limit your health care and remove your loss of licence benefits. Are you not being somewhat disingenuous to trumpet any formalization of the current scheme (without BPP) as a triumph over discrimination?
There may well be a forced change to our COS, but please, don't try and tell us this some good over evil thing..... it is merely another stunt by the company to enhance the bottom line by avoiding/eliminating BPP and getting an A-Scaler to work for B or C Scale lite.
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You say the contracts will be 'forced'. Wrong. CX will give you all a 'voluntary' choice to choose the new contract, or stay on your old contract, WITH bpp. Of course, you will only be able to work to 55...but of course you'll have no problem with that...as you seem to think it should suite the rest of us just fine....!
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ATY,
you seem to know how this is going to play out??? I hope you are correct in that it will be voluntary. Whilst I can't speak for all FO's or SO's, my prediction is that most that are not within spitting distance of command or close to being 55 will opt to stay with BPP. The phrase "bird in the hand" springs to mind. That then brings me back to my former point, why would the company do something like this unless it is forced (and it seems a long way from that at this time)? The quickest way to stop paying BPP in the current environment is to get rid of the extendees when their contracts expire. This kills two birds with one stone (those birds again). This helps reduce the overmanning, assuming the company is being truthful about being overmanned, and saves BPP.
I think we are more likely to see VSS offered in some new form than RA65 at the moment. Assuming that there is something to this GFC thing and airlines going bust all over the place and cutting capacity. But what would us pathetic teenagers know about those things anyway.
you seem to know how this is going to play out??? I hope you are correct in that it will be voluntary. Whilst I can't speak for all FO's or SO's, my prediction is that most that are not within spitting distance of command or close to being 55 will opt to stay with BPP. The phrase "bird in the hand" springs to mind. That then brings me back to my former point, why would the company do something like this unless it is forced (and it seems a long way from that at this time)? The quickest way to stop paying BPP in the current environment is to get rid of the extendees when their contracts expire. This kills two birds with one stone (those birds again). This helps reduce the overmanning, assuming the company is being truthful about being overmanned, and saves BPP.
I think we are more likely to see VSS offered in some new form than RA65 at the moment. Assuming that there is something to this GFC thing and airlines going bust all over the place and cutting capacity. But what would us pathetic teenagers know about those things anyway.
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"the issue of age discrimination is basically forcing the issue on the company."
The cabin crew retirement age was only increased to 45 last year. They also have bases outside Hong Kong, even in places that have age discrimination laws. Why do some pilots think they will be granted 65 ?
More than one group of employees have a mandatory retirement age.
SFGDOG,
I am intrigued.... what has expressing an opinion on here got to do with CRM?
For your consideration...
If the RA65 is offered as ATY suggests, then I would suspect that most Captains would accept, perhaps after an attempted intervention by the AOA. As a consequence of that, your command would certainly be delayed for an in-quantifiable period. Explain to me, then, why on earth would a current FO choose to stay with the current contract (albeit on BPP) rather than have the opportunity of another 10 yrs as a Captain beyond the age of 55.
Don't forget either, that once you reach adulthood, your aspirations will change. Regardless of how clever you have been in creating a pot of gold, every day you are able not to dip into it will be a day that the pot can grow even larger. You are either deluded or a liar to suggest that you will retire at 55. And once at that ripe 'old' age when given the choice of remaining at CX or leaving and starting again with Korean or China Airlines etc then you would magnanimously choose the latter, merely to enhance the careers of a group of disenchanted junior employees whom you have never met and who incessantly post their hated on sites such as this.
You are allowing the red that is clouding your vision to cloud your judgement also.
I am intrigued.... what has expressing an opinion on here got to do with CRM?
For your consideration...
If the RA65 is offered as ATY suggests, then I would suspect that most Captains would accept, perhaps after an attempted intervention by the AOA. As a consequence of that, your command would certainly be delayed for an in-quantifiable period. Explain to me, then, why on earth would a current FO choose to stay with the current contract (albeit on BPP) rather than have the opportunity of another 10 yrs as a Captain beyond the age of 55.
Don't forget either, that once you reach adulthood, your aspirations will change. Regardless of how clever you have been in creating a pot of gold, every day you are able not to dip into it will be a day that the pot can grow even larger. You are either deluded or a liar to suggest that you will retire at 55. And once at that ripe 'old' age when given the choice of remaining at CX or leaving and starting again with Korean or China Airlines etc then you would magnanimously choose the latter, merely to enhance the careers of a group of disenchanted junior employees whom you have never met and who incessantly post their hated on sites such as this.
You are allowing the red that is clouding your vision to cloud your judgement also.
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Max Reheat,
First, CRM. How does the attitude "screw you as long as I am all right jack" belong to anybody in command of an airline crew?
Secondly, it's quite simple really. Why would I choose my lucrative RA65 when I would spend the first 3+ years of that working just to compensate for my lost income due to the delay to command? I would rather take "x" number of years BPP and leave early. Working for free just doesn't sit right with me. Also, this would give the added satisfaction of sticking it to the company for extending the time to command.
So tell me, was it ok for those before you to have retired at 55 so that you could advance or were you campaigning for them at that time begging the company to retain their experience? Yeah I thought so.
Good luck to you if you were fortunate enough to join on A scales, if you had less than 10 years to command because those before you left at 55. But understand this. Many junior officers is this company are doing it tough financially. Especially if they have a family. Promotion is the only way out of that situation. Never mind retirement, the priority is to survive each month. I know one SO who joined from the RAAF who was talking of leaving as he had to use his savings from the RAAF just to survive each month. Most guys coming up for retirement have more than any of the current FO's or SO's will ever hope to have so count your blessings and have the retirement you can afford.
First, CRM. How does the attitude "screw you as long as I am all right jack" belong to anybody in command of an airline crew?
Secondly, it's quite simple really. Why would I choose my lucrative RA65 when I would spend the first 3+ years of that working just to compensate for my lost income due to the delay to command? I would rather take "x" number of years BPP and leave early. Working for free just doesn't sit right with me. Also, this would give the added satisfaction of sticking it to the company for extending the time to command.
So tell me, was it ok for those before you to have retired at 55 so that you could advance or were you campaigning for them at that time begging the company to retain their experience? Yeah I thought so.
Good luck to you if you were fortunate enough to join on A scales, if you had less than 10 years to command because those before you left at 55. But understand this. Many junior officers is this company are doing it tough financially. Especially if they have a family. Promotion is the only way out of that situation. Never mind retirement, the priority is to survive each month. I know one SO who joined from the RAAF who was talking of leaving as he had to use his savings from the RAAF just to survive each month. Most guys coming up for retirement have more than any of the current FO's or SO's will ever hope to have so count your blessings and have the retirement you can afford.
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ATY
What you predict would be in-line with the failed/rejected (for BusyB-withdrawn) deal of Aug 07.
Surely the best option for junior crew would be to stay on the original deal, take the BPP and then as they approach 55 discover that they have been discriminated against and approach the AOA to fund a lawsuit to prevent them being forcably retired as detailed in their contract... sound vaguely familar.
Should the majority of the Junior Crew elect to do that; and the AOA may advise them to do so, the problem then becomes the extendees remain an expensive option for the company (particularly if the floodgates open on BPP for Freighter extendees). Having the extendees on effectively 10 year contracts, presumably with no unpaid leave provisions, that will be unattractive to the company if they get no savings on BPP.
As for MaxReheat's question... "Explain to me, then, why on earth would a current FO choose to stay with the current contract (albeit on BPP) rather than have the opportunity of another 10 yrs as a Captain beyond the age of 55"
You need to read Numero Cruncho's post of some months back regarding the financial punishment for Junior Crew; whilst your career earnings rise by a small percentage... you have to work a lot of extra years. Also, what's to say by the time I get to 55 and get those "extra 10 years of Capts pay"; my pay wont be slashed to C Scale. Perhaps it is better to get command as fast as you can before the world changes again?
Surely the best option for junior crew would be to stay on the original deal, take the BPP and then as they approach 55 discover that they have been discriminated against and approach the AOA to fund a lawsuit to prevent them being forcably retired as detailed in their contract... sound vaguely familar.
Should the majority of the Junior Crew elect to do that; and the AOA may advise them to do so, the problem then becomes the extendees remain an expensive option for the company (particularly if the floodgates open on BPP for Freighter extendees). Having the extendees on effectively 10 year contracts, presumably with no unpaid leave provisions, that will be unattractive to the company if they get no savings on BPP.
As for MaxReheat's question... "Explain to me, then, why on earth would a current FO choose to stay with the current contract (albeit on BPP) rather than have the opportunity of another 10 yrs as a Captain beyond the age of 55"
You need to read Numero Cruncho's post of some months back regarding the financial punishment for Junior Crew; whilst your career earnings rise by a small percentage... you have to work a lot of extra years. Also, what's to say by the time I get to 55 and get those "extra 10 years of Capts pay"; my pay wont be slashed to C Scale. Perhaps it is better to get command as fast as you can before the world changes again?
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Thanks Liam
My thoughts exactly. As much as I hate people being discriminated against, it is worse still for me to earn a dollar less
As an aside, after retiring at 55 (with bypass pay( I can always keep flying somewhere else.
I see no benefit at this time for me in RA65 at this time and please don't quote me in ten years time as my view may change
My thoughts exactly. As much as I hate people being discriminated against, it is worse still for me to earn a dollar less
As an aside, after retiring at 55 (with bypass pay( I can always keep flying somewhere else.
I see no benefit at this time for me in RA65 at this time and please don't quote me in ten years time as my view may change
Stillalbatross,
You make some valid points.
However, if you read my posts carefully I have not mentioned MY pension fund; if you did see it your eyes would water!!! But that's my problem, not yours.
The whole thrust here is that you, SFGDOG and others spoil your arguments with such vitriol that they lose any impact. Even Cyril has stopped posting on this thread, clearly he felt he was banging his head against a brick wall.
Just for one moment disregard the financial aspect of people extending beyond 55 and consider that most are just not ready to give up a job they love. There are even still some of us left who still love flying for this company and give it 100%, 100% of the time.
SFGDOG...
It's ever so easy to post here when you are hiding behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity. Some have declared their hand, why don't you do the same, it may add some impact to your argument. If you are unwilling to do so, then maybe you should nip to the pharmacy and buy some testosterone tablets!!!
In the meantime..... cope with it!
You make some valid points.
However, if you read my posts carefully I have not mentioned MY pension fund; if you did see it your eyes would water!!! But that's my problem, not yours.
The whole thrust here is that you, SFGDOG and others spoil your arguments with such vitriol that they lose any impact. Even Cyril has stopped posting on this thread, clearly he felt he was banging his head against a brick wall.
Just for one moment disregard the financial aspect of people extending beyond 55 and consider that most are just not ready to give up a job they love. There are even still some of us left who still love flying for this company and give it 100%, 100% of the time.
SFGDOG...
It's ever so easy to post here when you are hiding behind a cowardly cloak of anonymity. Some have declared their hand, why don't you do the same, it may add some impact to your argument. If you are unwilling to do so, then maybe you should nip to the pharmacy and buy some testosterone tablets!!!
In the meantime..... cope with it!
Last edited by Max Reheat; 19th Feb 2009 at 13:29.