AOA funding of UK retirement age appeal
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Cyril
Perhaps Night Watch (and others) can see that the AOA, whether they conciously realised it or not, have adopted the policy of giving away BPP in return for RA65; he would like this subtle, but significant, policy shift at least discussed...
Further, perhaps he feels funding this APPEAL doesn't represent value. Perhaps he sees the risk in relying on an argument that a piece of recent Legislation, despite being clearly written one way, should be applied another way. Perhaps he sees the risk that even if the Judge buys that argument, further argument will have to be raised to say that the Company's actions are done out of Ageism, not to achieve the legitimate business aim of the career progression of Junior Pilots locked into a Seniority System.... that same legitimate business aim and Seniority System that saw Charlie get his Command.
Further, perhaps he feels funding this APPEAL doesn't represent value. Perhaps he sees the risk in relying on an argument that a piece of recent Legislation, despite being clearly written one way, should be applied another way. Perhaps he sees the risk that even if the Judge buys that argument, further argument will have to be raised to say that the Company's actions are done out of Ageism, not to achieve the legitimate business aim of the career progression of Junior Pilots locked into a Seniority System.... that same legitimate business aim and Seniority System that saw Charlie get his Command.
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Codswallop
Still yet to see any logical posts giving sound reasons for not agreeing to fund the appeal. I understand the costs involved have been revised down to 15K GBP (confirmation required). The supporters of the motion need to show some honesty and admit it is their own career progression (or BPP retention collecting Capts wages for FO duties) and not the money the AOA is spending that is the core issue at stake. The supporters of the motion are in effect saying they support the companies blatant age discrimination practices and additionally have no confidence in the GC to run the finances of the AOA.
Are we going to call for a vote when the AOA need to buy office furniture or update the computers. Do we need a vote to send our reps on courses or to conferences on safety...........of course not that is a waste of time and effort just like this poorly thought out petition circulating at present.
Are we going to call for a vote when the AOA need to buy office furniture or update the computers. Do we need a vote to send our reps on courses or to conferences on safety...........of course not that is a waste of time and effort just like this poorly thought out petition circulating at present.
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Cyril
"Still yet to see any logical posts giving sound reasons for not agreeing to fund the appeal"
So being of questionable value and not in line with AOA policy are not sound reasons?
You have said previously.. "I am saying that there has to be some compensation for BPP" and now you say.. "or BPP retention collecting Capts wages for FO duties". Your thinking seems to be confused; on one hand you recognize FO's and SO's have their careers and earnings degraded by an increase in retirement age and should be compensated. On the other hand however, you are critical of them for taking, or wanting, the compensation.
AOA policy is not to sacrifice BPP for retirement age 65. No one is hiding the fact; that is because the Junior Crews are protecting their wallets. Are they wrong for doing so? You say they are endorsing the company's discriminatory policies... got a Court Order to back up that statement... problem is, Charlies currently got a Court Order that says it not discriminatory.
I know you don't see the need to answer questions; however;
1. The wording of the relevant Act seems pretty clear; it doesn't apply to those who fly foreign registered aircraft. I assume Charlie was aware of this first time round; what new evidence or argument is going to be introduced in the Appeal?
2. Assuming you get around that one; how do you negate the Defence of "legimate business practice"?
3. You say a cost of GBP15,000. Am I correct in assuming if the Appeal is unsuccessful the company's costs will need to be met; so we need to budget GBP30,000?... hardly office furniture...
4. Success will result in either no RA or RA65 and you are honest enough to admit that the BPP provision in our Contracts will become impotent;
(i) Is this in line with current AOA policy on RA?
(ii) If it is not; why should the membership fund it?
So being of questionable value and not in line with AOA policy are not sound reasons?
You have said previously.. "I am saying that there has to be some compensation for BPP" and now you say.. "or BPP retention collecting Capts wages for FO duties". Your thinking seems to be confused; on one hand you recognize FO's and SO's have their careers and earnings degraded by an increase in retirement age and should be compensated. On the other hand however, you are critical of them for taking, or wanting, the compensation.
AOA policy is not to sacrifice BPP for retirement age 65. No one is hiding the fact; that is because the Junior Crews are protecting their wallets. Are they wrong for doing so? You say they are endorsing the company's discriminatory policies... got a Court Order to back up that statement... problem is, Charlies currently got a Court Order that says it not discriminatory.
I know you don't see the need to answer questions; however;
1. The wording of the relevant Act seems pretty clear; it doesn't apply to those who fly foreign registered aircraft. I assume Charlie was aware of this first time round; what new evidence or argument is going to be introduced in the Appeal?
2. Assuming you get around that one; how do you negate the Defence of "legimate business practice"?
3. You say a cost of GBP15,000. Am I correct in assuming if the Appeal is unsuccessful the company's costs will need to be met; so we need to budget GBP30,000?... hardly office furniture...
4. Success will result in either no RA or RA65 and you are honest enough to admit that the BPP provision in our Contracts will become impotent;
(i) Is this in line with current AOA policy on RA?
(ii) If it is not; why should the membership fund it?
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NOT THE SLIGHTEST BIT CONFUSED
Compensation for BPP Yes........Plenty of suggestions given
Continue paying BPP to those on a beach in Cairns collecting managers wages for doing the clerks job when he could do the managers job in HKG ....NO
Compensation for BPP Yes........Plenty of suggestions given
Continue paying BPP to those on a beach in Cairns collecting managers wages for doing the clerks job when he could do the managers job in HKG ....NO
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Cyril
"Continue paying BPP to those on a beach in Cairns collecting managers wages for doing the clerks job when he could do the managers job in HKG"
I am sure between the 2 of us we could waste a ton of bandwith discussing the inadequacies of our Contracts.... but since we live in the real world how about we deal with the Contract as written, or in this case how it is applied. Should you not like the way the company is applying the Contract as regards who gets BPP, I suggest you take up with Mr Rhodes rather than take issue with any Junior Pilot you may stumble across.
Whilst you steel yourselve to meet with Mr Rhodes, how about dealing with my 4 questions.....
I am sure between the 2 of us we could waste a ton of bandwith discussing the inadequacies of our Contracts.... but since we live in the real world how about we deal with the Contract as written, or in this case how it is applied. Should you not like the way the company is applying the Contract as regards who gets BPP, I suggest you take up with Mr Rhodes rather than take issue with any Junior Pilot you may stumble across.
Whilst you steel yourselve to meet with Mr Rhodes, how about dealing with my 4 questions.....
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Cyril,
Give it up mate...they're not listening...they don't care..you're wasting your time. They don't respect you, or me.
They want their bypass pay, they want to make a point, and they want it all now! They are the majority.
I've had enough. I say let them have their vote, then we ("the minority") can put an end to this indignity where we must beg for help from our own Union! Cyril, we will then have no choice but to end this sham and quit their AOA. Their membership will then be free of us pesky old guys, and free to then demand bypass pay, and plenty of it, for all those found unsuitable, or sitting on a base.
They can then call the AOA what it would then be: a fragment. It will no longer be the AOA. They can call it the AOF (Aircrew Officers Fragment) of JAF (Junior Pilots Fragment).
You know what the Company's response will be to their fractured union:Z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z!
The Company will ignore them, and their broken Union, continue to extend guys on reduced terms, and all with no bypass pay. The Company will do this because they can...because the membership will have lost what little leverage they had. The leverage of unity.
But don't tell them that. What do we know? You see, this is all about democracy....
It makes me proud to be in the same Union as them, how about you?
They'll kill any chance of getting their bypass pay, and they'll permanently weaken and kill the union. But after all Cyril, they are the majority of "the membership", so I guess that means they can vote on any abhorrent policy, just as long as it favours them..."the membership".
Cyril, I know that you've been a paying member of the AOA for two decades, but you're not in "the membership" mate, and neither am I. Surely you must understand this, their main line of argument...it has been going on for 15 pages now: It's all about "the membership"...THEIR MEMBERSHIP!
But what about you and I you say? Well Cyril, we're nothing, we're chopped liver mate! Our role ended after we hired them and trained them. We don't count in their Union. Only they, the majority represent "the membership".
They feel resentful and angry and jealous. They want us older "ex-members" to take our 6 million Oz, assorted pots of gold, private jets, yachts, cars, and everything else we've plundered and stolen, and just quit! According to their posts on these pages, we've been hording it long enough now, enough is enough...it's their turn! After all, they have been waiting several years now, and we're in their way!
So Cyril, just give it up. They're not listening and they don't care. So let them cut off their nose to spite their face. Let them have their tantrum and throw the toys out of the crib.
I'm serious mate...let them!
Give it up mate...they're not listening...they don't care..you're wasting your time. They don't respect you, or me.
They want their bypass pay, they want to make a point, and they want it all now! They are the majority.
I've had enough. I say let them have their vote, then we ("the minority") can put an end to this indignity where we must beg for help from our own Union! Cyril, we will then have no choice but to end this sham and quit their AOA. Their membership will then be free of us pesky old guys, and free to then demand bypass pay, and plenty of it, for all those found unsuitable, or sitting on a base.
They can then call the AOA what it would then be: a fragment. It will no longer be the AOA. They can call it the AOF (Aircrew Officers Fragment) of JAF (Junior Pilots Fragment).
You know what the Company's response will be to their fractured union:Z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z,z!
The Company will ignore them, and their broken Union, continue to extend guys on reduced terms, and all with no bypass pay. The Company will do this because they can...because the membership will have lost what little leverage they had. The leverage of unity.
But don't tell them that. What do we know? You see, this is all about democracy....
It makes me proud to be in the same Union as them, how about you?
They'll kill any chance of getting their bypass pay, and they'll permanently weaken and kill the union. But after all Cyril, they are the majority of "the membership", so I guess that means they can vote on any abhorrent policy, just as long as it favours them..."the membership".
Cyril, I know that you've been a paying member of the AOA for two decades, but you're not in "the membership" mate, and neither am I. Surely you must understand this, their main line of argument...it has been going on for 15 pages now: It's all about "the membership"...THEIR MEMBERSHIP!
But what about you and I you say? Well Cyril, we're nothing, we're chopped liver mate! Our role ended after we hired them and trained them. We don't count in their Union. Only they, the majority represent "the membership".
They feel resentful and angry and jealous. They want us older "ex-members" to take our 6 million Oz, assorted pots of gold, private jets, yachts, cars, and everything else we've plundered and stolen, and just quit! According to their posts on these pages, we've been hording it long enough now, enough is enough...it's their turn! After all, they have been waiting several years now, and we're in their way!
So Cyril, just give it up. They're not listening and they don't care. So let them cut off their nose to spite their face. Let them have their tantrum and throw the toys out of the crib.
I'm serious mate...let them!
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Raven old chap
The expression 'hitting the nail on the head' comes to mind.
Sadly the expression 'divide and rule' follows close behind.
I suspect the masses aren't listening and just don't wish to
N
The expression 'hitting the nail on the head' comes to mind.
Sadly the expression 'divide and rule' follows close behind.
I suspect the masses aren't listening and just don't wish to
N
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Raven11
I would like to say that was a serious mature response worthy of an aircraft commander....
It would seem the AOA can be unified... but only if it agrees with you...
Are you sure Funding has been denied? You may have shot-off a bit prematurely... but then who hasn't
It would seem the AOA can be unified... but only if it agrees with you...
Are you sure Funding has been denied? You may have shot-off a bit prematurely... but then who hasn't
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Raven...stick With It
I understand your frustration my friend but there is plenty of fight in this old dog and I refuse to quit the union, and never will. I will not let the industrial bullies commit to jettisoning one segment of the union just because they perceive they have the numbers to have a mutiny and pick on the numerical minority based upon the false pretext of democracy.
Your correct Raven 15 pages of debate and they still believe BPP should be paid if everyone has a unified retirement age. Any commonsense compromise is dismissed out of hand or they are so blinded they do not read it..
To want to go to war over 15-30K GBP when it is affordable and of little consequence versus the strong possibility of ending up with zip for BPP, splitting the union is the tactic of fools. Never mind RP07 expires at the end of this year just 10 months away and that is an issue that requires time and effort of the GC with a unified membership, but generation Y cannot see it. They want to be paid for a job they are not prepared to do.
Stick with it raven, stay in the AOA and help me make these naive people understand COS 94, COS 99 and RP01 were not negotiated, they were slipped in our mailboxes....no COS has been negotiated in around 20+ years. COS 09 has the potential to leave a very bitter pill in everyone's mouth if implemented without negotiation.
Your correct Raven 15 pages of debate and they still believe BPP should be paid if everyone has a unified retirement age. Any commonsense compromise is dismissed out of hand or they are so blinded they do not read it..
To want to go to war over 15-30K GBP when it is affordable and of little consequence versus the strong possibility of ending up with zip for BPP, splitting the union is the tactic of fools. Never mind RP07 expires at the end of this year just 10 months away and that is an issue that requires time and effort of the GC with a unified membership, but generation Y cannot see it. They want to be paid for a job they are not prepared to do.
Stick with it raven, stay in the AOA and help me make these naive people understand COS 94, COS 99 and RP01 were not negotiated, they were slipped in our mailboxes....no COS has been negotiated in around 20+ years. COS 09 has the potential to leave a very bitter pill in everyone's mouth if implemented without negotiation.
Last edited by CYRILJGROOVE; 3rd Feb 2009 at 10:08.
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Cyril
It is somewhat concerning that you have (again) chosen not to answer my questions. I think they are germane to the debate... don't forget this is a debate and I accept there are some powerful arguments to fund this venture.
However, you say.... "Any commonsense compromise is dismissed out of hand or they are so blinded they do not read it."
Sorry, I have genuinely missed your commonsense compromise... what is it?
However, you say.... "Any commonsense compromise is dismissed out of hand or they are so blinded they do not read it."
Sorry, I have genuinely missed your commonsense compromise... what is it?
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Cyril
I take it you are referring to this "commonsense compromise"...
"As I said earlier, a defined benefit retirement scheme, pay rates, and all of the freighter jobs to those on our list in order, the old A Vs B scales are all issues worth resolving once and for all. Support the AOA and seek a complete and fair deal for all, do not support the petition"
If I was from Mars and read that I would believe I have choice, either support the petition or sign a contract offering me A scale salary, A scale pension and no more DEC's. Be genuine, that's not what's on offer is it?
A successful litigation could offer another 10-15-20 yrs of A scale to you... but to Junior crew... a successful litigation could offer another 10-15-20 yrs of FO salaries on B and C scales... where's the compromise? Junior crew seem to be giving up a fair bit... what are you giving up in this "compromise"?
"As I said earlier, a defined benefit retirement scheme, pay rates, and all of the freighter jobs to those on our list in order, the old A Vs B scales are all issues worth resolving once and for all. Support the AOA and seek a complete and fair deal for all, do not support the petition"
If I was from Mars and read that I would believe I have choice, either support the petition or sign a contract offering me A scale salary, A scale pension and no more DEC's. Be genuine, that's not what's on offer is it?
A successful litigation could offer another 10-15-20 yrs of A scale to you... but to Junior crew... a successful litigation could offer another 10-15-20 yrs of FO salaries on B and C scales... where's the compromise? Junior crew seem to be giving up a fair bit... what are you giving up in this "compromise"?
Sometime fairly soon, the A Scalers will cease to exist.
It will be funny to see the B Scalers with no one to attack.
And even funnier to watch the C Scalers attack the B Scalers.
...and so on and on...but, such is life...
Will there ever com a time when professional pilots realize who their real enemy is? Perhaps not, as so many of us have our heads in the clouds and fail to see through the camouflage of our elusive scrub-hugging, devious and thieving true enemy.
Before you take aim and squeeze the trigger at what seems to be the enemy and an easy target, check your six...
The first rule of combat is "don't get shot".
It will be funny to see the B Scalers with no one to attack.
And even funnier to watch the C Scalers attack the B Scalers.
...and so on and on...but, such is life...
Will there ever com a time when professional pilots realize who their real enemy is? Perhaps not, as so many of us have our heads in the clouds and fail to see through the camouflage of our elusive scrub-hugging, devious and thieving true enemy.
Before you take aim and squeeze the trigger at what seems to be the enemy and an easy target, check your six...
The first rule of combat is "don't get shot".