AOA funding of UK retirement age appeal
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Max Rehash,
some of us are not so foolish as to announce our identity on a public internet forum. Especially not to win a silly argument on the internet if this is indeed possible. If you feel so strongly about using names, please feel free to post from now on under your real name. You may as well.
Incidentally, RA 65 is unlikely to have little or no impact on me personally, even if it was introduced tomorrow. I just can't COPE with the complete lack of understanding or empathy on how RA65 will effect junior crew. Trying to sell it as a win-win is just a complete load of (you know what). In my previous career, my colleagues and I took great pride in fostering the new generation and trying to leave the organisation a better place than we found it. Compare that to some of the senior members in this company who could care less about those that follow them while they are busy trying to kick the ladder away behind them. My only comfort is that the business situation at the moment at least favours the FO's and SO's interests and may save them from some of their senior brethren. Why does it seem that is it always fellow pilots who are often responsible for inflicting the worst career damage on their fellow pilots?
As I have said previously, the only guys that I have real sympathy for are the first of the B scalers approaching 55. They do have a better argument to keep working.
some of us are not so foolish as to announce our identity on a public internet forum. Especially not to win a silly argument on the internet if this is indeed possible. If you feel so strongly about using names, please feel free to post from now on under your real name. You may as well.
Incidentally, RA 65 is unlikely to have little or no impact on me personally, even if it was introduced tomorrow. I just can't COPE with the complete lack of understanding or empathy on how RA65 will effect junior crew. Trying to sell it as a win-win is just a complete load of (you know what). In my previous career, my colleagues and I took great pride in fostering the new generation and trying to leave the organisation a better place than we found it. Compare that to some of the senior members in this company who could care less about those that follow them while they are busy trying to kick the ladder away behind them. My only comfort is that the business situation at the moment at least favours the FO's and SO's interests and may save them from some of their senior brethren. Why does it seem that is it always fellow pilots who are often responsible for inflicting the worst career damage on their fellow pilots?
As I have said previously, the only guys that I have real sympathy for are the first of the B scalers approaching 55. They do have a better argument to keep working.
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Jagman,
won't use names on this forum but it was in the within the last month and the initials were PL and MD from the Airbus fleet. Quickest way to confirm it yourself unless you know who I am referring to is to call RH. From what I hear, there may be a very limited requirement for extensions on one fleet for a few particular people but even that may be off the agenda now. CX is in cost cutting and cash conserving mode now so the game has changed. I actually have no gripe with the extendee's as at least there is compensation in the form of BPP to those effected as per the COS.
won't use names on this forum but it was in the within the last month and the initials were PL and MD from the Airbus fleet. Quickest way to confirm it yourself unless you know who I am referring to is to call RH. From what I hear, there may be a very limited requirement for extensions on one fleet for a few particular people but even that may be off the agenda now. CX is in cost cutting and cash conserving mode now so the game has changed. I actually have no gripe with the extendee's as at least there is compensation in the form of BPP to those effected as per the COS.
Think I may know those initials SFG but also I hear on the drums that some people are being extended - even on the dead (or dying) Classic for heavens sake! What will CX do with them?
Recently too and I don't mean December. What's all that about? Do you think we will get a new contract? I do........
Recently too and I don't mean December. What's all that about? Do you think we will get a new contract? I do........
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Instead of the continual slagging off of the senior pilots in the airline, why doesn't everyone encourage the AOA to negotiate a comprehensive agreement with the company, settling all the issues that are presently giving us all heartburn. Whether it's this year, next, or in 5 years time, the company will officially have 65 in the near term. The fact that they have many pilots already on age 65 contracts puts them at risk legally for charges of discrimination. No airline willingly gets rid of it's experience (read: safety). CX is now about the only airline without a formal age 65 retirement. What do you think is the most likely outcome? A continuation of an increasingly indefensible position, or acceptance and implementation of the industry norm. hmmm, don't think i'd bet my bpp on the former....
Kitsune,
Insults like........ what?
I haven't insulted anyone. Suggesting a purchase of testosterone is hardly an insult.
There have been plenty of insults flung at the senior officers from the junior pilots on this thread but I guess that passed you by.
In the meantime ATY has hit the nail on the head... again. Though I fear that the AOA is attempting to do just that and are being 'stone-walled' as usual.
Insults like........ what?
I haven't insulted anyone. Suggesting a purchase of testosterone is hardly an insult.
There have been plenty of insults flung at the senior officers from the junior pilots on this thread but I guess that passed you by.
In the meantime ATY has hit the nail on the head... again. Though I fear that the AOA is attempting to do just that and are being 'stone-walled' as usual.
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"...risk legally for charges of discrimination.."
err...so the pay cut at 55 isn't discriminatory then?
If you have watched the AOA's video on RA65 you will be able to see this is a matter concerning the AOA. The AOA's position obviously differs with the status quo, which is broadly the company's position. It is not a matter for the pilot's to agree a deal amongst themselves. I sense the only concession the company is prepared to make is "RA65-no BPP"... effectively COS08...
Here's an alternative suggestion. RA65 for all, pay for over 55's pitched at a level to ensure a fair and transparent BPP compensation package for Junior Crew and a bit of savings for the company and "The Management's Bonus". I am guessing that pay will be between B and C scale with no bolt-ons. I'll leave you to fight over whether it's the same pay for Freighter or Pax... I don't care...
This achieves your aim of non-discrimination and eases your safety concern over experience retention. Max Reheat gets to do the job he loves.
There you go... on one hand everyone's got what they want and on the other hand everyone's mildly p!ssed off... hallmarks of a good deal...
So how about it ATY....?
err...so the pay cut at 55 isn't discriminatory then?
If you have watched the AOA's video on RA65 you will be able to see this is a matter concerning the AOA. The AOA's position obviously differs with the status quo, which is broadly the company's position. It is not a matter for the pilot's to agree a deal amongst themselves. I sense the only concession the company is prepared to make is "RA65-no BPP"... effectively COS08...
Here's an alternative suggestion. RA65 for all, pay for over 55's pitched at a level to ensure a fair and transparent BPP compensation package for Junior Crew and a bit of savings for the company and "The Management's Bonus". I am guessing that pay will be between B and C scale with no bolt-ons. I'll leave you to fight over whether it's the same pay for Freighter or Pax... I don't care...
This achieves your aim of non-discrimination and eases your safety concern over experience retention. Max Reheat gets to do the job he loves.
There you go... on one hand everyone's got what they want and on the other hand everyone's mildly p!ssed off... hallmarks of a good deal...
So how about it ATY....?
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There are even still some of us left who still love flying for this company and give it 100%, 100% of the time.
No airline willingly gets rid of it's experience (read: safety).
In the past Captains were being extended because it was a cheap and quick solution to their crewing levels, No training, B scale package, etc. With the new BOP, if indeed it is true that we will be over crewed, where is the advantage of keeping a Captain beyond 55????
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Could the CNs in this thread give us the time it took to command in this company? I would like to compare what it has taken to achieve command over the last 10-15 years....
Also if there's any F/Os that were previously S/Os; how long were you an S/O for.
cheers
Also if there's any F/Os that were previously S/Os; how long were you an S/O for.
cheers
Last edited by Humber10; 21st Feb 2009 at 10:50.
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It can take longer for various reasons medical, cad can suspend your entitlement for command for medical reasons ( though you still fly as F/O), waiting for a base, waiting to use a joker
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Methinks BusyB is a special case. There are very few captains who, if they had progressed normally, would have done more than 10.5 years in the right seat. Many did 2-3 years and I think Last Officer Gosper only did 11 but don't take that as gospel, I wasn't here then!!
The current ttc is 9 years 1 month and 21 days but with the ASL bulge, anyone joining after 1st Jan 00 is looking at 10.5 years........hopefully!!
The current ttc is 9 years 1 month and 21 days but with the ASL bulge, anyone joining after 1st Jan 00 is looking at 10.5 years........hopefully!!
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There is a distinction younger pilots need to understand when making these comparisons.
For pilots who joined in the earlier nineties, ten or eleven years to command was in the right seat. Second Officers joining the Company need to count right seat time to command, and not second officer time, to make an apples to apples comparison.
For pilots who joined in the earlier nineties, ten or eleven years to command was in the right seat. Second Officers joining the Company need to count right seat time to command, and not second officer time, to make an apples to apples comparison.
Last edited by raven11; 22nd Feb 2009 at 06:38.
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Can't believe the AoA is going to fund a case which is directly outside of their Cos.....Why did you sign RA55 all those years ago then.......why do all the hard working paying members have to pay for a court case which is going for something that is outside of these peoples Cos?
All this and its ultimately going to disadvantage junior officers!
All this and its ultimately going to disadvantage junior officers!
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Raven. Unfortunately an "apples to apples" comparison isn't possible here. Firstly, many S/O's joined as ex Ryanair (or any other airline) skippers or with a whole load of experience in the military, just as new joiner F/Os have been doing for Cathay's entire history. Secondly, we are employing S/Os and F/Os concurrently so for every S/O who has only to count right seat time there is an F/O who joined on the same day who has to count all of his time in the company.
For these reasons, time in the company is probably the best way to count your time.
For these reasons, time in the company is probably the best way to count your time.
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The main issue here is an association funding something with the use of members funds which is not in their CoS!
If you sign up for something then later on decide its not what you want....then fund it yourself don't use the resources of others....especially those that will be disadvantaged.
If you sign up for something then later on decide its not what you want....then fund it yourself don't use the resources of others....especially those that will be disadvantaged.
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Blutack
To save you looking at the reply to Albatross...
"Can't believe the AoA is going to fund a case"
You are one of two people. If you put your name on the Petition, you can express disappointment, however temper your views because 90% of your fellow members disagreed/couldn't be @rsed.
If you didn't put your name on the Petition, locate your "neck" switch and select the "wind-in" position....
"Can't believe the AoA is going to fund a case"
You are one of two people. If you put your name on the Petition, you can express disappointment, however temper your views because 90% of your fellow members disagreed/couldn't be @rsed.
If you didn't put your name on the Petition, locate your "neck" switch and select the "wind-in" position....
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Loopdeloop
Save that arguement for the young ladies.
I've flown with hundreds of S/O's. For everyone who is as experienced as you describe there are three who are not, and many with 300 hours total time.
Time to command comparisons with those who joined as FO's can only be measured by time in the seat as FO's.
Otherwise, you're just fooling yourself.
Save that arguement for the young ladies.
I've flown with hundreds of S/O's. For everyone who is as experienced as you describe there are three who are not, and many with 300 hours total time.
Time to command comparisons with those who joined as FO's can only be measured by time in the seat as FO's.
Otherwise, you're just fooling yourself.
Blutak
The world does not stand still. What you sign now will not be cast in concrete for ever more and never changed. Stop whining. The AOA membership disagrees with you so leave it and save your subs if you like. This subject is closed - as it should be.
Oh and get some time in.............!
The world does not stand still. What you sign now will not be cast in concrete for ever more and never changed. Stop whining. The AOA membership disagrees with you so leave it and save your subs if you like. This subject is closed - as it should be.
Oh and get some time in.............
!