AOA funding of UK retirement age appeal
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I'm not sure I understand your banter Raven but at least you seem to agree that an "apples to apples" comparison isn't possible, as over half the people who join the company do so directly in the right seat or have the relevant experience to do so.
The old system whereby S/Os didn't get a seniority number until they upgraded made ttc easier to quantify but right now it's tricky. In fact, all of the straight through captain upgrades in the last few months and for the next 12 months will have joined as an F/O. Unless you've a better suggestion, I'll use time in the company as the best guide to ttc.
The old system whereby S/Os didn't get a seniority number until they upgraded made ttc easier to quantify but right now it's tricky. In fact, all of the straight through captain upgrades in the last few months and for the next 12 months will have joined as an F/O. Unless you've a better suggestion, I'll use time in the company as the best guide to ttc.
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"who joined as S/O doing freighter commands out of seniority order"
How can it be out of seniority order when ANYBODY with a seniority number in the company can bid for a course? (Not excusing/including the most recent DEC debacle as people who had a valid seniority number).
Don't blame the guys for bidding on a course within a system that was validated and approved by all of us in 2000.
If you're going to blame anybody for a 2 fleet system blame the company. DO NOT forget who the enemy is!!!
How can it be out of seniority order when ANYBODY with a seniority number in the company can bid for a course? (Not excusing/including the most recent DEC debacle as people who had a valid seniority number).
Don't blame the guys for bidding on a course within a system that was validated and approved by all of us in 2000.
If you're going to blame anybody for a 2 fleet system blame the company. DO NOT forget who the enemy is!!!
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Loop
I can't believe we're having this debate. You're letting emotion cloud your judgement.
Read carefully... An apples to apples comparison IS Possible. It's when you compare the time in the right seat.
Please don't say that your time as an S/O compares in any way possible with someone's time as a F/O. It doesn't matter if you had previous time at Ryanair, were a cadet, a 1000 hour GA instructor, or wherever.
When you've done ten years as an F/O, at Cathay, then you can compare yourself with someone else who's done 10 years as an F/O.
Don't take my word for it... Ask the CAD!
As I said (I mean "bantered") in my last post, you are only fooling yourself
making any other comparison.
I can't believe we're having this debate. You're letting emotion cloud your judgement.
Read carefully... An apples to apples comparison IS Possible. It's when you compare the time in the right seat.
Please don't say that your time as an S/O compares in any way possible with someone's time as a F/O. It doesn't matter if you had previous time at Ryanair, were a cadet, a 1000 hour GA instructor, or wherever.
When you've done ten years as an F/O, at Cathay, then you can compare yourself with someone else who's done 10 years as an F/O.
Don't take my word for it... Ask the CAD!
As I said (I mean "bantered") in my last post, you are only fooling yourself
making any other comparison.
Last edited by raven11; 23rd Feb 2009 at 01:40.
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Liam Gallagher
Maybe I am neither of the people you have outlined.
Instead: People join an association for protection, protection of their CoS….not to use the association to gain things that are not in their CoS, at the expense of others.
Maybe you are one of those guys getting close to 55 and have not planned your retirement? So locate your “neck” and select “retirement” position…
Maybe I am neither of the people you have outlined.
Instead: People join an association for protection, protection of their CoS….not to use the association to gain things that are not in their CoS, at the expense of others.
Maybe you are one of those guys getting close to 55 and have not planned your retirement? So locate your “neck” and select “retirement” position…
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Jagman1
“What you sign now will not be cast in concrete for ever more and never changed.”
Are you serious? YES it is set in concrete that’s why you sign a contract silly…….
Stop wasting the time and resources of the Association trying for something outside your CoS and instead use their resources in ensuring ALL of our CoS are met.
“What you sign now will not be cast in concrete for ever more and never changed.”
Are you serious? YES it is set in concrete that’s why you sign a contract silly…….
Stop wasting the time and resources of the Association trying for something outside your CoS and instead use their resources in ensuring ALL of our CoS are met.
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Albatros
What?!? What the heck does housing allowance have to do with time to command?
You say that most of you could have flown 737's... Then aren't you making my experience point for me?
If you and your colleagues are going to constantly compare time to command with those of us who joined in the eighties or nineties, you must compare apples to apples. Those who joined back then as F/Os were hired, trained, and tested as F/Os. Those who joined as S/Os were hired trained and tested as S/Os.
You cannot seriously call their experience at Cathay similar in any way.
If you're going to compare, then make an accurate comparison.
What?!? What the heck does housing allowance have to do with time to command?
You say that most of you could have flown 737's... Then aren't you making my experience point for me?
If you and your colleagues are going to constantly compare time to command with those of us who joined in the eighties or nineties, you must compare apples to apples. Those who joined back then as F/Os were hired, trained, and tested as F/Os. Those who joined as S/Os were hired trained and tested as S/Os.
You cannot seriously call their experience at Cathay similar in any way.
If you're going to compare, then make an accurate comparison.
Last edited by raven11; 23rd Feb 2009 at 04:21.
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Those who joined back then as F/Os were hired, trained, and tested as F/Os.
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Dragon69
Yeah...those are the ones...the ones that don't consider 45 degrees of bank a steep turn? The ones that don't seem to have the trouble upgrading to Captain....Hmmmmm, I wonder why?
Yeah...those are the ones...the ones that don't consider 45 degrees of bank a steep turn? The ones that don't seem to have the trouble upgrading to Captain....Hmmmmm, I wonder why?
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Blutack
Are you serious? YES it is set in concrete that’s why you sign a contract silly…….
I get the feeling some of you might just be about to experience the dilemma that seems to come around every few years.
Stop wasting the time and resources of the Association
Last edited by CYRILJGROOVE; 23rd Feb 2009 at 06:44.
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Yeah...those are the ones...the ones that don't consider 45 degrees of bank a steep turn? The ones that don't seem to have the trouble upgrading to Captain....Hmmmmm, I wonder why?
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Blutack
"Maybe I am neither of the people you have outlined"
errr... no... you either signed the Petition or you did not; can't be half pregnant here. Equally, you have either read (and understood) this entire thread or you have not. You are clearly in the latter camp.... otherwise you would not have written...
"Maybe you are one of those guys getting close to 55 and have not planned your retirement"
Further....
"YES it is set in concrete that’s why you sign a contract silly"
Even putting aside the excellent (hard earnt) advice that Cyril and Jagman have given you regarding CX's view of the "advisory" nature of contracts, Governments and Courts overturn private Contracts everyday. In fact some believe that is their role, and Charlie is asking a UK Court to do exactly that; indeed, it is his right to do so......
errr... no... you either signed the Petition or you did not; can't be half pregnant here. Equally, you have either read (and understood) this entire thread or you have not. You are clearly in the latter camp.... otherwise you would not have written...
"Maybe you are one of those guys getting close to 55 and have not planned your retirement"
Further....
"YES it is set in concrete that’s why you sign a contract silly"
Even putting aside the excellent (hard earnt) advice that Cyril and Jagman have given you regarding CX's view of the "advisory" nature of contracts, Governments and Courts overturn private Contracts everyday. In fact some believe that is their role, and Charlie is asking a UK Court to do exactly that; indeed, it is his right to do so......
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 23rd Feb 2009 at 07:28.
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Dragon
Grow up! I refuse to reply to such a childish post.
Except to say your post embarresses us all. It says everything one needs to know about your background/experience.
You have neither.
Grow up! I refuse to reply to such a childish post.
Except to say your post embarresses us all. It says everything one needs to know about your background/experience.
You have neither.
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Raven, you seem to be stuck on transmit but I'll try it in bite sized pieces for you.
1. More than half of new joiners over the last 10 years joined as F/Os, whether it be on the freighter (pre 2008) or as unified DEFOs.
2. Cathay's F/O intake criteria have changed little over the last couple of decades.
3. Ttpc is now 9 years, 2 months and 23 days. One year from now it will be 10 years, 2 months and 23 days.
4. All straight through captain upgrades for the next year joined as an F/O.
For these reasons I use time in the company as ttpc (for clarification, note addition of the letter p!)
Please don't read any more into my posts than I've written. The question was asked about ttc a couple of days ago. You replied that S/Os need to subtract S/O time. I don't disagree, but how do they do this and is it relevant right now? Should they subtract 18 months, actual time to JFO upgrade, actual time to F/O upgrade or time to F/O BPP? It's a mess, and if you go down that route then you'll end up with an answer that nobody can get their head around.
I'm not qualified to answer the question posed, so perhaps you'd like to start the ball rolling?
1. More than half of new joiners over the last 10 years joined as F/Os, whether it be on the freighter (pre 2008) or as unified DEFOs.
2. Cathay's F/O intake criteria have changed little over the last couple of decades.
3. Ttpc is now 9 years, 2 months and 23 days. One year from now it will be 10 years, 2 months and 23 days.
4. All straight through captain upgrades for the next year joined as an F/O.
For these reasons I use time in the company as ttpc (for clarification, note addition of the letter p!)
Please don't read any more into my posts than I've written. The question was asked about ttc a couple of days ago. You replied that S/Os need to subtract S/O time. I don't disagree, but how do they do this and is it relevant right now? Should they subtract 18 months, actual time to JFO upgrade, actual time to F/O upgrade or time to F/O BPP? It's a mess, and if you go down that route then you'll end up with an answer that nobody can get their head around.
I'm not qualified to answer the question posed, so perhaps you'd like to start the ball rolling?
Liam and Cyril.
Thank you guys.Throughout you've spoken a lot of sense. I think it's about time the moderator put this thread to bed.
The 'dissillusioned few' have had their chance and, thank goodness, have failed. They are, as we hoped, a tiny minority. I wish to fly until 65 and enjoy 20 years of retirement and it pretty much looks like I will (the 65 bit anyway).
The minority will rant and rave but will do little else. As someone who thoroughly enjoys my job, I will not be responding on this subject any further. May even extend beyond 65 if I feel like it too!!
Incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you guys.Throughout you've spoken a lot of sense. I think it's about time the moderator put this thread to bed.
The 'dissillusioned few' have had their chance and, thank goodness, have failed. They are, as we hoped, a tiny minority. I wish to fly until 65 and enjoy 20 years of retirement and it pretty much looks like I will (the 65 bit anyway).
The minority will rant and rave but will do little else. As someone who thoroughly enjoys my job, I will not be responding on this subject any further. May even extend beyond 65 if I feel like it too!!
Incoming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Stillborn....
Of course, the whole thing is an evil scam perpetrated by people with more money than you could ever dream of possessing, just to screw you...... PERSONALLY.
Grow up,
and by the way...
Get some time in!!!!
Of course, the whole thing is an evil scam perpetrated by people with more money than you could ever dream of possessing, just to screw you...... PERSONALLY.
Grow up,
and by the way...
Get some time in!!!!
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Let's try and understand a simple concept (especially for people like stillalbatross). No one has the right to tell me when i'm 'over the hill', 'too old', 'past my prime'...etc, etc. CX has many pilots flying to 65. The debate is over..it's only the details that need working out. If you worked for ANY other airline, you would be working to a retirement age of 65. You are ALREADY doing so at CX....just need to formalise it for everyone. Get over it, it's done.