Emirates vs. Air Canada
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Lowering the standards of the profession
pcm,
I'm not sure where to start with this one, but making such a bold statement as to imply EKs pilot wages are bringing down the profession is ill-informed. I'm not here to advertise my salary, but with less than 10 years of seniority with Emirates my take home is quite a bit more than your estimate of "just over $100,000". You would have been closer if you said just under $200,000.
Although I'm not at all versed on the ins and outs of the Air Canada contract, a quick check of www.airlinepilotcentral.com says that had I joined them instead of Emirates, at best I'd be an EMB190 Capt making $99,600 or perhaps a wide body FO pulling in $111,600. I am sure there are some additions to this, and I could include a few extra dollars to mine as well. No matter which way you slice and dice it I'm comfortably above both those amounts and no I don't, by the laws of the land, have to pay tax.
Having specifically mentioned the EK types in your post, perhaps you are making a direct comparison with an AC widebody Captain and are surprised at the results? I am sure that you are aware that Emirates pays us all the same amount regardless of type (they're all more or less the same anyway). Therefore, my salary is a relatively good indication of the average salary that Emirates pays pilots in this profession. The AC 777 Captains salary of $190,700 is NOT the average that Air Canada pays. With more than 70% of the fleet being single aisle, it appears that the vast majority of AC Captains make around $120,000.
This thread seems to continue to swipe at Emirates for it's poor salary structure, but I think we may have lost a bit of perspective. Although we are not the best paid and we have all seen cutbacks over the past few years, if we consider the backbone of professionals in an airline, Emirates costs are competitive:
MANAGERIAL STAFF: Very well looked after from what I see and hear (VPs, SVPs, airport/region/country managers and the like).
PILOTS: We work harder than most, but the salary is okay.
ENGINEERS: From what I've heard, they've had it worse than us in terms of more work for less pay, but I still hear some of them say "there are no better options".
CABIN CREW: Maybe not professionals, but certainly a large and essential group. Given the demographic that we seek to employ, I think most are happy with their packet and with housing, transport etc thrown in it wouldn't qualify as slave labour.
DISPATCHERS: There may be a few skeletons in this closet, but there are a few senior guys (ex LH) who I'm guessing wouldn't stick around for peanuts. Even if I knew their salary I wouldn't know what a dispatcher made in Canada to compare.
My argument is that the cost to Emirates for it's group of airline PROFESSIONALS (although I probably left some groups out) is not an unfair advantage. Do you know that a Captain at LAN Ecuador makes around $3,000 US per month? Imagine what they pay the rest of the staff. Why isn't there a NO TO LAN thread on here? All the third world airlines are the same. The majority of their staff live in the third world (obviously), and therefore make a sub-Canadian standard salary. Air Canada doesn't seem to have a problem going head to head with these carriers. Emirates is the target because it has been so successful. They have worked hard, and spent millions to develop a brand that the consumer wants. EK also benefits geographically as it is located on the doorstep of 2/3 of the world population, most of it without a reliable local airline. Would Air Canada like to come and harvest some of this bounty? Apparently they would rather just limit Joe Public's access to his/her airline of choice (i.e. Emirates). It is draconian. Perhaps all you NO TO EK types would like to go back to the days when Bell Canada was the only game in town?
Yes, Emirates does employ thousands of workers in the organization who by Canadian standards are poorly compensated. With 30 million Filipinos making less than a dollar a day at home, the UAE has welcomed almost as many to it's shores as Canada has. Perhaps you can welcome these 300K into Canada and show them what a real wage is like? Oh yeah, many of the Filipinos in Canada come in as Private Nurses or Nannies and don't make a "real" Canadian wage do they? Much like the Caribbean farm workers in the orchards and vineyards of Southern Ontario. Should we boycott Canadian fruit and wines?
Emirates is not lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that the guy slinging the bags into the back of the jet makes more than the pilot is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that the Purser makes more than the FO is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that you are expected to pay for your type endorsement is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that guys are killing each other to fly for free is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that the flag carrier of the country has a fixed salary for the first two years that is lower than that of a garbage man is lowering the standards of the profession.
These things are not happening here, they are happening in your backyard.
By the way, while on the subject of the garbage man, please continue to write to your MP about us expats. I would gladly pay a certain amount in taxes if it meant that I could start to re-establish my ties to the homeland. Obviously, I wouldn't benefit from the daily visits by the sanitation department, snow plow, ability to visit the local doctor/hospital etc... so don't think I should pay the full whack "for the benefit of the infastructure when (or if) I return" as you say, but given the current rules I think many of us would consider a small payment for the ability to keep a house at home or to have the medical cover for emergencies for instance. Or is that not punitive enough for you?
As for calling your CP a CSer......well if that's not lowering the image of a pilot and therefore the profession then I don't know what is. Grow up.
I'm not sure where to start with this one, but making such a bold statement as to imply EKs pilot wages are bringing down the profession is ill-informed. I'm not here to advertise my salary, but with less than 10 years of seniority with Emirates my take home is quite a bit more than your estimate of "just over $100,000". You would have been closer if you said just under $200,000.
Although I'm not at all versed on the ins and outs of the Air Canada contract, a quick check of www.airlinepilotcentral.com says that had I joined them instead of Emirates, at best I'd be an EMB190 Capt making $99,600 or perhaps a wide body FO pulling in $111,600. I am sure there are some additions to this, and I could include a few extra dollars to mine as well. No matter which way you slice and dice it I'm comfortably above both those amounts and no I don't, by the laws of the land, have to pay tax.
Having specifically mentioned the EK types in your post, perhaps you are making a direct comparison with an AC widebody Captain and are surprised at the results? I am sure that you are aware that Emirates pays us all the same amount regardless of type (they're all more or less the same anyway). Therefore, my salary is a relatively good indication of the average salary that Emirates pays pilots in this profession. The AC 777 Captains salary of $190,700 is NOT the average that Air Canada pays. With more than 70% of the fleet being single aisle, it appears that the vast majority of AC Captains make around $120,000.
This thread seems to continue to swipe at Emirates for it's poor salary structure, but I think we may have lost a bit of perspective. Although we are not the best paid and we have all seen cutbacks over the past few years, if we consider the backbone of professionals in an airline, Emirates costs are competitive:
MANAGERIAL STAFF: Very well looked after from what I see and hear (VPs, SVPs, airport/region/country managers and the like).
PILOTS: We work harder than most, but the salary is okay.
ENGINEERS: From what I've heard, they've had it worse than us in terms of more work for less pay, but I still hear some of them say "there are no better options".
CABIN CREW: Maybe not professionals, but certainly a large and essential group. Given the demographic that we seek to employ, I think most are happy with their packet and with housing, transport etc thrown in it wouldn't qualify as slave labour.
DISPATCHERS: There may be a few skeletons in this closet, but there are a few senior guys (ex LH) who I'm guessing wouldn't stick around for peanuts. Even if I knew their salary I wouldn't know what a dispatcher made in Canada to compare.
My argument is that the cost to Emirates for it's group of airline PROFESSIONALS (although I probably left some groups out) is not an unfair advantage. Do you know that a Captain at LAN Ecuador makes around $3,000 US per month? Imagine what they pay the rest of the staff. Why isn't there a NO TO LAN thread on here? All the third world airlines are the same. The majority of their staff live in the third world (obviously), and therefore make a sub-Canadian standard salary. Air Canada doesn't seem to have a problem going head to head with these carriers. Emirates is the target because it has been so successful. They have worked hard, and spent millions to develop a brand that the consumer wants. EK also benefits geographically as it is located on the doorstep of 2/3 of the world population, most of it without a reliable local airline. Would Air Canada like to come and harvest some of this bounty? Apparently they would rather just limit Joe Public's access to his/her airline of choice (i.e. Emirates). It is draconian. Perhaps all you NO TO EK types would like to go back to the days when Bell Canada was the only game in town?
Yes, Emirates does employ thousands of workers in the organization who by Canadian standards are poorly compensated. With 30 million Filipinos making less than a dollar a day at home, the UAE has welcomed almost as many to it's shores as Canada has. Perhaps you can welcome these 300K into Canada and show them what a real wage is like? Oh yeah, many of the Filipinos in Canada come in as Private Nurses or Nannies and don't make a "real" Canadian wage do they? Much like the Caribbean farm workers in the orchards and vineyards of Southern Ontario. Should we boycott Canadian fruit and wines?
Emirates is not lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that the guy slinging the bags into the back of the jet makes more than the pilot is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that the Purser makes more than the FO is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that you are expected to pay for your type endorsement is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that guys are killing each other to fly for free is lowering the standards of the profession.
The fact that the flag carrier of the country has a fixed salary for the first two years that is lower than that of a garbage man is lowering the standards of the profession.
These things are not happening here, they are happening in your backyard.
By the way, while on the subject of the garbage man, please continue to write to your MP about us expats. I would gladly pay a certain amount in taxes if it meant that I could start to re-establish my ties to the homeland. Obviously, I wouldn't benefit from the daily visits by the sanitation department, snow plow, ability to visit the local doctor/hospital etc... so don't think I should pay the full whack "for the benefit of the infastructure when (or if) I return" as you say, but given the current rules I think many of us would consider a small payment for the ability to keep a house at home or to have the medical cover for emergencies for instance. Or is that not punitive enough for you?
As for calling your CP a CSer......well if that's not lowering the image of a pilot and therefore the profession then I don't know what is. Grow up.
Last edited by Townie; 19th Jul 2010 at 07:36. Reason: forgot the CSer bit!!!!!
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Just to add some FACTS to the argument:
As a Line Skipper (been here less than 7 years), I will TAKE HOME circa 40,000dhs or about $12,000 CAD per month. When you backwards correct for Canadian tax at 29%, that comes out at around $200,000 CAD pa. Assume I take the accommodation allowance (or free company Villa) of $70,000 CAD pa (again backwards taxed), you can see that as a junior line shag Captain, I'm earning more than a senior Air Canada A330 Jock......!! Before you cry pension, schooling, and medical AND dental, yes all of that is covered as well! Perhaps that's why we have over 300 Canadian Pilots working here??
EK does NOT get free landing fees at DXB
EK does NOT get free fuel (if we did, wouldn't we tanker out of DXB all the time??). Due to refining limitations in the UAE, Jet A1 is imported from Singapore!
EK does NOT receive state funding. Aside from the fact that Dubai doesn't have any spare cash, EK has been highly profitable in every year but 1 of its 25 year history.... It pays a dividend TO the Government of Dubai ($400m this year alone!).
EK funds its Aircraft using regular banking sources like any other Airline.
These FACTS can be openly viewed on the EK website in the Annual Report (which incidentally is INDEPENDENTLY audited by Price Waterhouse Coopers).
Yes EK doesn't pay any form of Corporation Tax (part of operating in a Tax free environment).
EK probably pays less than market rate for land rent on its buildings and services.
It has overall cheaper labour costs than most competitors. For the cost of 1 baggage handler at YYZ, you will get 10 here!
The entire point being, why the hell should any Government (much less any single Airline) dictate to its population how AND who with they must spend their money? Is that not an example of a Nanny State at its finest? If people want spend their money and travel a certain way, then let them.... its called competition!! There IS demand.
You don't hear the UK government or BA/Virgin/BMI crying into their beer about unfair competition from EK's 14 flights a day to the UK do you?? That's because they have actually taken time to look at the facts!! Something it appears most of you Cry Babies would be well served to do!
As a Line Skipper (been here less than 7 years), I will TAKE HOME circa 40,000dhs or about $12,000 CAD per month. When you backwards correct for Canadian tax at 29%, that comes out at around $200,000 CAD pa. Assume I take the accommodation allowance (or free company Villa) of $70,000 CAD pa (again backwards taxed), you can see that as a junior line shag Captain, I'm earning more than a senior Air Canada A330 Jock......!! Before you cry pension, schooling, and medical AND dental, yes all of that is covered as well! Perhaps that's why we have over 300 Canadian Pilots working here??
EK does NOT get free landing fees at DXB
EK does NOT get free fuel (if we did, wouldn't we tanker out of DXB all the time??). Due to refining limitations in the UAE, Jet A1 is imported from Singapore!
EK does NOT receive state funding. Aside from the fact that Dubai doesn't have any spare cash, EK has been highly profitable in every year but 1 of its 25 year history.... It pays a dividend TO the Government of Dubai ($400m this year alone!).
EK funds its Aircraft using regular banking sources like any other Airline.
These FACTS can be openly viewed on the EK website in the Annual Report (which incidentally is INDEPENDENTLY audited by Price Waterhouse Coopers).
Yes EK doesn't pay any form of Corporation Tax (part of operating in a Tax free environment).
EK probably pays less than market rate for land rent on its buildings and services.
It has overall cheaper labour costs than most competitors. For the cost of 1 baggage handler at YYZ, you will get 10 here!
The entire point being, why the hell should any Government (much less any single Airline) dictate to its population how AND who with they must spend their money? Is that not an example of a Nanny State at its finest? If people want spend their money and travel a certain way, then let them.... its called competition!! There IS demand.
You don't hear the UK government or BA/Virgin/BMI crying into their beer about unfair competition from EK's 14 flights a day to the UK do you?? That's because they have actually taken time to look at the facts!! Something it appears most of you Cry Babies would be well served to do!
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Thanks Townie and Oblaaspop for finally posting some reasonable arguments...it gets tiring to only hear the protectionist side from the ill informed and flag wavers... 
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The corporate tax load on AC is considerably higher than that of emirates. emirates doesnt pay corporate taxes in UAE does it?
That is why the Canadian government doesn't want a low cost international carrier flying into Canada. The Canadian government would take a tax hit to have emirates fly here too much.
Also there isn't a realistic way for AC to compete into Dubai because most of the traffic emirates takes into DXB is thru traffic. AC already covers that Indian market thru it's Star Alliance partners (and AC takes a cut of the ongoing ticket out of ticket from Europe to India - and the Canadian Government takes a tax from that ticket)
If emirates launches out of Vancouver to DXB the Canadian govt doesn't get the same level of tax revenue from that flight. It also gets zero tax revenue for the onward connection to India.
There is no incentive for the Canadian government to allow more EK flights into Canada. There is an incentive to reduce the number of flights EK flies into Canada
That is why the Canadian government doesn't want a low cost international carrier flying into Canada. The Canadian government would take a tax hit to have emirates fly here too much.
Also there isn't a realistic way for AC to compete into Dubai because most of the traffic emirates takes into DXB is thru traffic. AC already covers that Indian market thru it's Star Alliance partners (and AC takes a cut of the ongoing ticket out of ticket from Europe to India - and the Canadian Government takes a tax from that ticket)
If emirates launches out of Vancouver to DXB the Canadian govt doesn't get the same level of tax revenue from that flight. It also gets zero tax revenue for the onward connection to India.
There is no incentive for the Canadian government to allow more EK flights into Canada. There is an incentive to reduce the number of flights EK flies into Canada
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Indeed (as I mentioned before), EK doesn't pay Corporation tax.
However, the Pax would pay departure tax, the airline would pay landing fees, handling charges, parking charges, buy (lots of) fuel, employ engineers, gate/checkin/ticket staff, would have ticket offices in town, complimentary limo's with drivers for J & F class pax, cargo handling/sheds, advertising expenditure in local/national press & TV.......... Did I miss anything? Should I go on, or do you guys FINALLY get the point?
All of the above would generate taxable revenue for the Canadian Government, it would CREATE jobs and stimulate business - local companies would be able to use additional cargo capacity and get their goods to international destinations quicker AND the flying public would FINALLY get the service they so desperately crave...... It has to be win, win SURELY??
The British/American governments can see the advantages, why can't you guys?
Its really not that difficult chaps!!!
However, the Pax would pay departure tax, the airline would pay landing fees, handling charges, parking charges, buy (lots of) fuel, employ engineers, gate/checkin/ticket staff, would have ticket offices in town, complimentary limo's with drivers for J & F class pax, cargo handling/sheds, advertising expenditure in local/national press & TV.......... Did I miss anything? Should I go on, or do you guys FINALLY get the point?
All of the above would generate taxable revenue for the Canadian Government, it would CREATE jobs and stimulate business - local companies would be able to use additional cargo capacity and get their goods to international destinations quicker AND the flying public would FINALLY get the service they so desperately crave...... It has to be win, win SURELY??
The British/American governments can see the advantages, why can't you guys?
Its really not that difficult chaps!!!
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Oblasspop,
All the items you mentioned paying would not even be a drop in the bucket compared to what A/C contributes to the tax base of Canada.
People keep trying to say Emirates would create all kinds of jobs here if allowed in. I beg to differ. How many jobs will there really be for one flight a day? Lets have a look.
Baggage handling will be looked after by the lowest cost available, (servise air etc.) who look after alot of other carriers and have a bunch of young guys making min wage available to work the flight. Net job gains, maybe 2 or 3? (part time low paying jobs)
Customer service agents? Again I ask how many do you need to work one flight a day? How many full time CSA's does Emirates employ in YYZ? I would guess not alot. (10? maybe 15 at the very most.. Part time low paying jobs)
The fuelers will not need to hire anyone else.
Catering? They may need 2 or 3 more people at the most to cover an extra 500 meals each day. (part time low paying jobs)
Maintainence? Contracted out to the lowest bidder. Might need a couple guys if whoever they chose is short staffed. (unlikely though)
Travel agents? I'm sure the current staff can handle one more airline option when booking flights.
Advertisement? Again I'm sure the current staff at the various medias can cue up the premade ads Emirates will provide.
Limo drivers? Have a look at the number of limo's cued up at the major airports in Canada waiting for a fare. Definitely no need to hire anyone else.
Should I go on? Please show us where all these great high paying jobs that will contribute to Canada's tax base are coming from?
PS Somehow I don't think customers are CRAVING a 24 hr layover in Dubai to get from YYZ to India or Asia...
All the items you mentioned paying would not even be a drop in the bucket compared to what A/C contributes to the tax base of Canada.
People keep trying to say Emirates would create all kinds of jobs here if allowed in. I beg to differ. How many jobs will there really be for one flight a day? Lets have a look.
Baggage handling will be looked after by the lowest cost available, (servise air etc.) who look after alot of other carriers and have a bunch of young guys making min wage available to work the flight. Net job gains, maybe 2 or 3? (part time low paying jobs)
Customer service agents? Again I ask how many do you need to work one flight a day? How many full time CSA's does Emirates employ in YYZ? I would guess not alot. (10? maybe 15 at the very most.. Part time low paying jobs)
The fuelers will not need to hire anyone else.
Catering? They may need 2 or 3 more people at the most to cover an extra 500 meals each day. (part time low paying jobs)
Maintainence? Contracted out to the lowest bidder. Might need a couple guys if whoever they chose is short staffed. (unlikely though)
Travel agents? I'm sure the current staff can handle one more airline option when booking flights.
Advertisement? Again I'm sure the current staff at the various medias can cue up the premade ads Emirates will provide.
Limo drivers? Have a look at the number of limo's cued up at the major airports in Canada waiting for a fare. Definitely no need to hire anyone else.
Should I go on? Please show us where all these great high paying jobs that will contribute to Canada's tax base are coming from?
PS Somehow I don't think customers are CRAVING a 24 hr layover in Dubai to get from YYZ to India or Asia...
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The corporate tax load on AC is considerably higher than that of emirates. emirates doesnt pay corporate taxes in UAE does it?
That is why the Canadian government doesn't want a low cost international carrier flying into Canada. The Canadian government would take a tax hit to have emirates fly here too much.
Also there isn't a realistic way for AC to compete into Dubai because most of the traffic emirates takes into DXB is thru traffic. AC already covers that Indian market thru it's Star Alliance partners (and AC takes a cut of the ongoing ticket out of ticket from Europe to India - and the Canadian Government takes a tax from that ticket)
If emirates launches out of Vancouver to DXB the Canadian govt doesn't get the same level of tax revenue from that flight. It also gets zero tax revenue for the onward connection to India.
There is no incentive for the Canadian government to allow more EK flights into Canada. There is an incentive to reduce the number of flights EK flies into Canada
That is why the Canadian government doesn't want a low cost international carrier flying into Canada. The Canadian government would take a tax hit to have emirates fly here too much.
Also there isn't a realistic way for AC to compete into Dubai because most of the traffic emirates takes into DXB is thru traffic. AC already covers that Indian market thru it's Star Alliance partners (and AC takes a cut of the ongoing ticket out of ticket from Europe to India - and the Canadian Government takes a tax from that ticket)
If emirates launches out of Vancouver to DXB the Canadian govt doesn't get the same level of tax revenue from that flight. It also gets zero tax revenue for the onward connection to India.
There is no incentive for the Canadian government to allow more EK flights into Canada. There is an incentive to reduce the number of flights EK flies into Canada
The Canadian government would get the same from EK that it does from any other international carrier that operates in/out of the country. By your argument we should ban BA, Lufthansa, CX etc too.
All the items you mentioned paying would not even be a drop in the bucket compared to what A/C contributes to the tax base of Canada.
People keep trying to say Emirates would create all kinds of jobs here if allowed in. I beg to differ. How many jobs will there really be for one flight a day? Lets have a look...
...Should I go on? Please show us where all these great high paying jobs that will contribute to Canada's tax base are coming from?
PS Somehow I don't think customers are CRAVING a 24 hr layover in Dubai to get from YYZ to India or Asia...
People keep trying to say Emirates would create all kinds of jobs here if allowed in. I beg to differ. How many jobs will there really be for one flight a day? Lets have a look...
...Should I go on? Please show us where all these great high paying jobs that will contribute to Canada's tax base are coming from?
PS Somehow I don't think customers are CRAVING a 24 hr layover in Dubai to get from YYZ to India or Asia...
As far as all the jobs you mentioned, again, is that any different than the jobs created by any of the other foreign carriers that operate in/out of Canada?
Naturally EK is going to try and put as positive a spin on things as it can just like AC will make things out to be catastrophic.
As far as what the customers are craving: if you are indeed correct, then the EK service will be short lived anyway. Shouldn't the consumer be the one to decide what it is they want or are willing to pay for? The one thing EK will not do is flog a dead horse; if it doesn't make them money they'll drop it.
There hasn't been a well thought out reason yet given why EK should be blocked from offering the consumer an alternative choice. It still comes down to whinging and whining by AC.
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There hasn't been a well thought out reason yet given why EK should be blocked from offering the consumer an alternative choice. It still comes down to whinging and whining by AC
Clunk,
Part of your argument is not really valid, I believe, as the cost of extracting oil from the middle east region vs the grand banks or oil sands of alberta are substantially lower, so the profit margins on the oil in the ME are quite a bit higher. And I think there's still quite a bit in reserves in the ME. But part of this particular argument is EK vis a vis oil revenues, and I think its fairly well known that Dubai does not have very much of that. Point being, EK isn't thriving because of the existence of oil reserves. That's like saying AC is succesful because of the oil sands, or will at some point be.
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OK so lets consider that things are not what they seem.
EK , get all kinds of independant studies to say how much money we will bring to Canada. From proposed credible institutions. ( Who I am sure were paid very handsomely for their " study ".
This is not disimilar to the institutions that EK have on their payroll saying " we do not have a fatigue issue in this airline" . Just because you have a University/ Organisation preparing an argument for you . It does not mean its fact by any stretch.Management are seen to be doing the right thing , but have a very different agenda.
You could take it one step farther , understanding their modus operandi. They claim they are not subsidised , dont get cheap fuel etc etc etc.
A simple paper exercise could " hide" this easily if it were in fact the case.
To make it " appear" so.
Until this part of the world allows for some "real " transparency into the way they operate. Then I think the Canadian gov have a strong argument.
EK , get all kinds of independant studies to say how much money we will bring to Canada. From proposed credible institutions. ( Who I am sure were paid very handsomely for their " study ".
This is not disimilar to the institutions that EK have on their payroll saying " we do not have a fatigue issue in this airline" . Just because you have a University/ Organisation preparing an argument for you . It does not mean its fact by any stretch.Management are seen to be doing the right thing , but have a very different agenda.
You could take it one step farther , understanding their modus operandi. They claim they are not subsidised , dont get cheap fuel etc etc etc.
A simple paper exercise could " hide" this easily if it were in fact the case.
To make it " appear" so.
Until this part of the world allows for some "real " transparency into the way they operate. Then I think the Canadian gov have a strong argument.
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Fourgolds,
I presume you work for EK? If so, how on earth can you logically argue that we receive cheap fuel?????? On what percentage of flights do you tanker out of Dubai? Less than 1% I'm guessing, heck I even tanked INTO Dubai from TIP and KWI recently. Surely if we received cheap fuel, we would tanker OUT BOUND on 100% of flights.
Get it into your heads chaps, we DO NOT GET CHEAP FUEL!!!
I also presume that you think Price Waterhouse Coopers (the internationally renowned independent Auditors) are telling 'Porkies' when the scour our financial statements and declare that EK pays 'The industry average for landing fees/fuel/parking etc at its DXB Hub'? Surely you are not suggesting that PWC are taking 'Brown Envelopes' to just pretend its a viable report? Do you honestly think that PWC would risk their 170 year solid reputation as being one of the best, most trusted Auditing companies on the planet with an annual turnover of $26 BILLION?? That must have been a big 'kin envelope!!!
Cant you just accept the fact that possibly/maybe/perhaps there might be a percentage chance that EK are right???? Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it is a well run business making genuine profit? Surely it deserves the chance to compete into a market where a dinosaur of an Airline throws its toys out the pram every time its toes are trodden on and insists on government protectionism!
AC is just grabbing at straws and a lot of you Nufies are getting suckered right along with the BS.
I presume you work for EK? If so, how on earth can you logically argue that we receive cheap fuel?????? On what percentage of flights do you tanker out of Dubai? Less than 1% I'm guessing, heck I even tanked INTO Dubai from TIP and KWI recently. Surely if we received cheap fuel, we would tanker OUT BOUND on 100% of flights.
Get it into your heads chaps, we DO NOT GET CHEAP FUEL!!!
I also presume that you think Price Waterhouse Coopers (the internationally renowned independent Auditors) are telling 'Porkies' when the scour our financial statements and declare that EK pays 'The industry average for landing fees/fuel/parking etc at its DXB Hub'? Surely you are not suggesting that PWC are taking 'Brown Envelopes' to just pretend its a viable report? Do you honestly think that PWC would risk their 170 year solid reputation as being one of the best, most trusted Auditing companies on the planet with an annual turnover of $26 BILLION?? That must have been a big 'kin envelope!!!
Cant you just accept the fact that possibly/maybe/perhaps there might be a percentage chance that EK are right???? Is it beyond the realms of possibility that it is a well run business making genuine profit? Surely it deserves the chance to compete into a market where a dinosaur of an Airline throws its toys out the pram every time its toes are trodden on and insists on government protectionism!
AC is just grabbing at straws and a lot of you Nufies are getting suckered right along with the BS.
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My point exactly. You can make a compelling argument by appearing to comply. By tankering in to Dubai ( you believe it , why should,nt the auditors). Fact is 50 % of departures are out of DXB ( so its still cheaper ) . So you get PWC or whoever you like to Audit you. ( your papers appear to be in order , PWC have their reputation covered as they audit what appears to be a ligitimate set of transactions). Whereas it is in fact anything but what it " appears " to be.
So I just want to confirm with you then , That you agree with the companies " approved" experts that fatigue is not an issue in EK. Because we have a Fatigue commitee and " independant" studies to confirm that fatigue is not an issue ? . Because if this is the real nature of their character , then why are they not capable of getting the " results " they require to do whatever they need to do.
Seeing the way they conduct bussiness in this part of the world is proof enough for me. Believe me the Canadaian Gov are right to have a healthy suspicion for EK's arguments. I also believe this is only the start of EK,s battles for farther access to many markets. Europe will tighten its reigns , so will many other countries.
The greatest argument is the need for more " transparency"
So I just want to confirm with you then , That you agree with the companies " approved" experts that fatigue is not an issue in EK. Because we have a Fatigue commitee and " independant" studies to confirm that fatigue is not an issue ? . Because if this is the real nature of their character , then why are they not capable of getting the " results " they require to do whatever they need to do.
Seeing the way they conduct bussiness in this part of the world is proof enough for me. Believe me the Canadaian Gov are right to have a healthy suspicion for EK's arguments. I also believe this is only the start of EK,s battles for farther access to many markets. Europe will tighten its reigns , so will many other countries.
The greatest argument is the need for more " transparency"
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GMC 1500, In a part of the globe where mutual aid and cooperation between nations is often dismissed by the rest of the world there is in fact a very smooth runing oil distribution system which provides a stable {till it runs out} delivery system of cheap oil to all nations but one in the Middle East, {You only get three tries to name the one} The very fact that its cheaper to pump oil from dry land wells not only makes it cheaper but ensures that it is being exploited at a faster rate than other sources, therein lies the problem which will ensure the more rapid depleation of the ME fields, I do in fact know a little bit about the oil game by dint of having one of my kin fairly high up in the exploration/distribution part of the industry, it really doesnt matter what infrastructure the nations in the ME build unless they truly build an oil free society, given the local view on life I doubt this will happen. Time frame for this? As one poster said, I may just live long enough to see it, {72 at this time} but happen it will. In the meantime I will help the process today by racing my boat,{ twin 485 H/P V8s!}
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FG, Firstly I don't recall ever mentioning Fatigue. If you want back up on the fatigue point, I CAN confirm that I am completely knackered! Happy? Forgive me but I thought we were discussing Canadian protectionism, not the internal workings of our fatigue management group?
Secondly, you have just proven that you know bugger all about Auditing! Do you honestly think PWC are gonna accept a load of made up crap written on the back of a fag packet? If that were the case, you could set up your own international Auditing company called 'Bodgit and Scarper', sign off on any old rubbish presented to you and make $billions every year...... Jeez why didn't I think of that before?
Thirdly, and something people like you seem to continually and conveniently gloss over is WHERE THE HELL IS THIS STATE FUNDING (in the form of cheap fuel etc) COMING FROM? Dubai does not have any spare cash, indeed EK is propping up Dubai to a certain extent ie the $400m dividend it paid! Or are you saying that, throughout the year the Government gives money/subsidies to EK and then at the end of the year EK gives it back?? Hmmm, what a logical argument you present........ NOT!!!!!
Once more, I'll say it again for the hard of learning, Jet A1 in this country has come all the way from Singapore, if anything it'll be more expensive than some other places!!
By all means place a VALID argument on the table, but I would ask that you think wisely and sensibly about what you are writing because at the moment it just sounds like an 11th Grade debating society where only 1 side is able to put logical facts on the table.
Secondly, you have just proven that you know bugger all about Auditing! Do you honestly think PWC are gonna accept a load of made up crap written on the back of a fag packet? If that were the case, you could set up your own international Auditing company called 'Bodgit and Scarper', sign off on any old rubbish presented to you and make $billions every year...... Jeez why didn't I think of that before?
Thirdly, and something people like you seem to continually and conveniently gloss over is WHERE THE HELL IS THIS STATE FUNDING (in the form of cheap fuel etc) COMING FROM? Dubai does not have any spare cash, indeed EK is propping up Dubai to a certain extent ie the $400m dividend it paid! Or are you saying that, throughout the year the Government gives money/subsidies to EK and then at the end of the year EK gives it back?? Hmmm, what a logical argument you present........ NOT!!!!!
Once more, I'll say it again for the hard of learning, Jet A1 in this country has come all the way from Singapore, if anything it'll be more expensive than some other places!!
By all means place a VALID argument on the table, but I would ask that you think wisely and sensibly about what you are writing because at the moment it just sounds like an 11th Grade debating society where only 1 side is able to put logical facts on the table.
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GMC, the taxpayer and consumer do not suffer at all.
Your point about "choice" is not valid since the choice is already there on a daily basis.
The taxpayer? ??? MORE than daily flights to the UAE will not make a significant impact to the taxpayer. The only party it will benefit it Emirates.
This is not protectionism. This is just the process. This is what happens everywhere. If an airline wants increased frequency, it applies to the local gov't for it, and if the gov't deems it mutually beneficial then a deal will follow. It is a business deal, so if one party doesn't like it, its not going to happen. There is no point in whinging about it, or jumping up and down insisting its your right that the other party take what you want! So.... at this point its not mutually beneficial.
And don't quote the "study" by emirates of the 400 million or so to the Canadian economy. That is just hogwash. Im sure Ottawa has its own more legitimate measures that suit the interests of Canada, not the UAE. It is Canada's asset to give, and Canada will decide. But increased frequency will happen...its just not the right time right now.
So lets all stop this pointless drivel shall we?
Your point about "choice" is not valid since the choice is already there on a daily basis.
The taxpayer? ??? MORE than daily flights to the UAE will not make a significant impact to the taxpayer. The only party it will benefit it Emirates.
This is not protectionism. This is just the process. This is what happens everywhere. If an airline wants increased frequency, it applies to the local gov't for it, and if the gov't deems it mutually beneficial then a deal will follow. It is a business deal, so if one party doesn't like it, its not going to happen. There is no point in whinging about it, or jumping up and down insisting its your right that the other party take what you want! So.... at this point its not mutually beneficial.
And don't quote the "study" by emirates of the 400 million or so to the Canadian economy. That is just hogwash. Im sure Ottawa has its own more legitimate measures that suit the interests of Canada, not the UAE. It is Canada's asset to give, and Canada will decide. But increased frequency will happen...its just not the right time right now.
So lets all stop this pointless drivel shall we?
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555Orange,
I didn't quote the 'study'.
As for the suffering of consumers/taxpayers in Canada, just try to get a seat on a direct Dxb flight out of yyz. they're oversold everyday they operate. The demand is there. the consumers/taxpayers want it. Let AC provide the service if they're so sure they can make money on it.
I didn't quote the 'study'.
As for the suffering of consumers/taxpayers in Canada, just try to get a seat on a direct Dxb flight out of yyz. they're oversold everyday they operate. The demand is there. the consumers/taxpayers want it. Let AC provide the service if they're so sure they can make money on it.
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Bottom line.............slavery works..........if any free trade regulations applied to any ME airline ......they would be flying in circles and have no where to land....
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The UAE telcom authority has just decided to suspend BlackBerry services for it's two providers Etisalat and du starting Oct 11. Effectively as of that date all Canadian RIM products are useless... Nothing in the globe and mail yet, though it is headline news in the UAE... if you want to read go to gulfnews. .
WxGeek 555orange and your ilk... the message is clear.. screw our business, we'll screw yours....
.... AIN'T PAYBACK A B#TCH... HA HA HA HA!!!
WxGeek 555orange and your ilk... the message is clear.. screw our business, we'll screw yours....
.... AIN'T PAYBACK A B#TCH... HA HA HA HA!!!
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How does it go? "Cut of ones nose to spite ones face" This will only harden the postion of the rest of the world, one does not gain landing rights anywhere with this kind of stupid, imature behavior, the ME just doesnt understand how the West views such behavior.
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Yup RIM must be shaking in their boots at the thought of losing all the UAE customers. Why that must be a huge percentage of their business...not sure how they'll survive that.