Emirates vs. Air Canada
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again the usual responses,...either condescension or denial, I guess when Canada is the center of your universe and you're happy to live in your little bubble, this action is either petty childishness, or of little importance. Take as you wish but in the end, this will hurt Canadian business, and only the protectionist Air Canada stooges at Transport Canada and their partners in the moronic Harper government are to blame.
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six7driver, In the old days books were burned by such governments, this is just a modern version of the same, such regimes carry the seeds of their own demise, your generation needs to read a bit of recent history, but it would seem you are bound to repeat the blunders of generations past , tell me, why did the Emerates put spy ware on Rims products untill forced to remove same and pay a cash settlement? Let me gues, they didnt want folks reading Goldilocks? No its because they dont want free comunication between those who dont share their view of society. I only hope those working there have the smarts to encode or have prior comunication protocols set up when they write/phone/emai, belive me Big Brother is not a character out of fiction .
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Clunk is right on. Free SMS between Blackberry users worldwide cuts Du and Etisalat out of alot of $$$$. These coneheads got caught and spanked, which is the highest insult to these people.
If a local feels like they have been embarrased someone pays, its never logical, just reactionary. The amount of unsold Blackberry inventory in the UAE will cost retailers a huge amount of money, including locals who have a share in retail.
This also sends a message to anyone who deals with the UAE. They are as reliable as a 30hr wx forecast.
six7driver, its not about payback for slots or Air Canada. Its about a culture who sense of righteous entitlement was knocked down a peg in full sight, so they react like a 3 year old.
If this has even a whiff of payback, EK or EY will never see another Canadian destination ever.
If a local feels like they have been embarrased someone pays, its never logical, just reactionary. The amount of unsold Blackberry inventory in the UAE will cost retailers a huge amount of money, including locals who have a share in retail.
This also sends a message to anyone who deals with the UAE. They are as reliable as a 30hr wx forecast.
six7driver, its not about payback for slots or Air Canada. Its about a culture who sense of righteous entitlement was knocked down a peg in full sight, so they react like a 3 year old.
If this has even a whiff of payback, EK or EY will never see another Canadian destination ever.
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come on look at the facts clunk, if the UAE government is the sinister totalitarian government you describe, complete with the old big brother boogeyman, then why does Canada - and yes this includes you, a proud Canadian no doubt - have a military base there?, (of course what's more ironic is that you share it along side those ever ready defenders of freedom and justice for all. the good ol USA.) I think it's you that needs a more careful read of history. If anything this country is a Frankenstein of the west's creation. Your admonishments of its society are just because its approach to dealing with issues of security and dissent, and doing business is too honest for your sheltered moral superiority to stomach. Maybe RIM's problem has nothing to do with Emirates business aspirations in Canada, but had Canada's Harper government not adopted the arrogant protectionist business stance driven by the elitist Air Canada cronies at Transport Canada, it might have had some leverage to talk to the UAE government about why it's about to wipe out the business aspirations of an important Canadian company in this region.
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six7 driver,, We also had military bases in Germany right after WW2, this hardley shows a pro Nazi stance on the part of Canada any more than having bases in your neck of the woods puts us in their camp, having said that yours is not the only state trying to put a muzzle on devices which are very hard to monitor, Saudi being another one, now theres a model of democracy for the world to follow!Im sure you are getting brownie points from those who sign your pay cheques for you rather extreame posts, however, having spent a fair bit of time in most of the sandboxes, and having a fair grasp of the local lingo I think my take on the situation is a little more based on fact and local experience than yours, so lets agree to disagree and talk again in ten years {If Im still breathing that is!} and see how things turn out.
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the day emirates airlines produces profitable audited books (stand alone) without danata........then u can have access to Canadian markets...........it will never happen 
and lets not forget slavery in the middle east is ripe......... 
and lets not forget slavery in the middle east is ripe.........
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67,
So it's the Harper government that is responsible for the UAE blocking Blackberry? And i supose by the same reasoning it's the Harper governments fault that the UAE threatened to not renew Camp Mirage's lease? I would bet that pumps alot more into the local UAE economy than EK would into Canada's.
If we get the boot from there we're pulling out of theatre in 2011 anyway, so no great loss. I hear Qatar has a smallish base leased to our friendly neighbours to the south, might have to bum a corner there for awhile if that is the way it goes.
Get out of the sun it's affecting your reasoning.
So it's the Harper government that is responsible for the UAE blocking Blackberry? And i supose by the same reasoning it's the Harper governments fault that the UAE threatened to not renew Camp Mirage's lease? I would bet that pumps alot more into the local UAE economy than EK would into Canada's.
If we get the boot from there we're pulling out of theatre in 2011 anyway, so no great loss. I hear Qatar has a smallish base leased to our friendly neighbours to the south, might have to bum a corner there for awhile if that is the way it goes.
Get out of the sun it's affecting your reasoning.
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Wadefac,
EK DOES produce independently audited results (as has been mentioned several times before if you had bothered to notice) by Price Waterhouse Coopers.
They appear on the Emirates corporate website and are broken down into individual business units for you to peruse over at your leisure.
Am I to assume that you are intimating that DNATA is the only part of the Emirates Group to make a profit? Hmmmm, $1bn USD profit for an Airport Handling company...... now that is impressive!!!!
FYI EK currently has an AVERAGE load factor of around 90% and if you were to bother going on-line to do some research (instead of jumping on the 'I'll talk out of my arse because it sounds good' bandwagon), you will notice that the average seat prices are AT LEAST that of other major carriers.
THAT is why EK makes a profit....it fills its wide bodies and charges top dollar while doing so. Look and learn instead of being green eyed with envy!
EK DOES produce independently audited results (as has been mentioned several times before if you had bothered to notice) by Price Waterhouse Coopers.
They appear on the Emirates corporate website and are broken down into individual business units for you to peruse over at your leisure.
Am I to assume that you are intimating that DNATA is the only part of the Emirates Group to make a profit? Hmmmm, $1bn USD profit for an Airport Handling company...... now that is impressive!!!!
FYI EK currently has an AVERAGE load factor of around 90% and if you were to bother going on-line to do some research (instead of jumping on the 'I'll talk out of my arse because it sounds good' bandwagon), you will notice that the average seat prices are AT LEAST that of other major carriers.
THAT is why EK makes a profit....it fills its wide bodies and charges top dollar while doing so. Look and learn instead of being green eyed with envy!
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Audited books? Come on now, you dont seem to know how it works. Each fiscal year my good lady and I would troop into the office of one of the largest bean counting firms in the world, the conversation would normally start with something along the lines of, "What would you like the bottom line to be this year?" To make a the point to you, if we changed the depreciation rate on our fleet 1/4% on the books it would be the difference between a large proffit or just break even, not my rules by the way, just the way it is,so I dont care who does the audit, it means little or nothing. Those who doubt the preceeding should read some of the audited books for the Wall Street bunch who just wrecked so many lives.{Liars figure, and figures lie, is the credo of creative acountants , }
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six7driver
...while I miss the UAE...
The UAE Ministry of Information have for years smeared magazines, books, newspapers, etc., with opaque black permanent ink to blatently censor public consumption. Changed, has it? Are you suggesting the UAE are an example of freedom and democracy? FWIW, the UAE is a dictatorship along with, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar....shall I go on?
Come to think of it, so was Iraq.
Etisalat have shutout Blackberry (and for that matter, any foreign company they cannot control) purely and simply for their inability to censor, control or profit. I think you're giving them too much credit as to their motivation for doing so.
Blackberry will soon rectify that situation both there and in neighbouring dictatorships. So, why worry about RIM?
We could argue this point for hours, but IMHO Emirates simply DOES NOT ADD UP financially. A certain family in Dubai is spending the Emirate's future in a single generation. Where will you be when EK caves in on itself? Personally, I could care less if EK flew to every major city in Canada twice a day. It would be short lived anyway. I've been around airlines long enough to know load factors mean SFA to the bottom line. Look up facade in your Funk & Wagnall's. The locals are all about power, money and facade. How are Shk Moh and EK any different in that regard? I'm listening.
How can Flannagan or Clark tell an international audience with a straight face, Emirates is profitable in the 'true' sense of the word? Or, true sense of 'normal' airline economics? A tax break in Dubai cuts it. I'm sure. But when you connect the dots, it doesn't.
The last time I checked, (which isn't recently) the Canadians DO NOT have their own military base in the UAE. As far as I know, no foreign nation does. (I stand to be corrected) Foreign nations may 'share', or have an exclusive corner of a base for their own use...but, no. Canada doesn't have a base in the UAE.
If the ****e hits the fan again, you'll see. Just like the Gulf War, the invitations will go out to foreign forces and bases like al Dhafra will share the concrete with three or four nations (again) and the UAE will be asked to keep TacOps confined to the UAE.
A pissing contest with the UAE is nothing more than give me what I want or get out. Our CAFs should get out of the UAE anyway. Oman is a much better choice.
Willie
...while I miss the UAE...
The UAE Ministry of Information have for years smeared magazines, books, newspapers, etc., with opaque black permanent ink to blatently censor public consumption. Changed, has it? Are you suggesting the UAE are an example of freedom and democracy? FWIW, the UAE is a dictatorship along with, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar....shall I go on?
Come to think of it, so was Iraq.
Etisalat have shutout Blackberry (and for that matter, any foreign company they cannot control) purely and simply for their inability to censor, control or profit. I think you're giving them too much credit as to their motivation for doing so.
Blackberry will soon rectify that situation both there and in neighbouring dictatorships. So, why worry about RIM?
We could argue this point for hours, but IMHO Emirates simply DOES NOT ADD UP financially. A certain family in Dubai is spending the Emirate's future in a single generation. Where will you be when EK caves in on itself? Personally, I could care less if EK flew to every major city in Canada twice a day. It would be short lived anyway. I've been around airlines long enough to know load factors mean SFA to the bottom line. Look up facade in your Funk & Wagnall's. The locals are all about power, money and facade. How are Shk Moh and EK any different in that regard? I'm listening.
How can Flannagan or Clark tell an international audience with a straight face, Emirates is profitable in the 'true' sense of the word? Or, true sense of 'normal' airline economics? A tax break in Dubai cuts it. I'm sure. But when you connect the dots, it doesn't.
The last time I checked, (which isn't recently) the Canadians DO NOT have their own military base in the UAE. As far as I know, no foreign nation does. (I stand to be corrected) Foreign nations may 'share', or have an exclusive corner of a base for their own use...but, no. Canada doesn't have a base in the UAE.
If the ****e hits the fan again, you'll see. Just like the Gulf War, the invitations will go out to foreign forces and bases like al Dhafra will share the concrete with three or four nations (again) and the UAE will be asked to keep TacOps confined to the UAE.
A pissing contest with the UAE is nothing more than give me what I want or get out. Our CAFs should get out of the UAE anyway. Oman is a much better choice.
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 5th Aug 2010 at 14:48.
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Ok Clunk, so what do you suggest?? I appears that whatever EK tries, its damned if does and damned if it doesn't.
Many are spouting off that they want to see Audited accounts. When EK does that, nobody believes them.... So whats the point??
Far better, would be for the Canadians (Air Canada and the Government), to just turn round and say "Look EK, we can't think of any legitimate reasons why you shouldn't come to Canada more often, so just accept the fact that we are narrow-minded and protectionist". At least then EK can stop wasting its time and resources flogging a dead horse!!
Happy??
Many are spouting off that they want to see Audited accounts. When EK does that, nobody believes them.... So whats the point??
Far better, would be for the Canadians (Air Canada and the Government), to just turn round and say "Look EK, we can't think of any legitimate reasons why you shouldn't come to Canada more often, so just accept the fact that we are narrow-minded and protectionist". At least then EK can stop wasting its time and resources flogging a dead horse!!
Happy??
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Obiaaspop,I doubt you would expect a nation to sign on to such a statement, even if it had a grain of truth in it, what is really needed is the system of regulation which was in place for years for both domestic flying and bi laterall agreements. For A good example of how this worked one only has to read the acounts of CP Airs first try at getting a transcon route in competition with TCA, the regulators wernt fooled one bit by the books and ripped their case apart, these folks proved that the set asides for maint, fleet availability and all the other things that were needed just didnt add up. A few years later CP came back to the table, well prepared and got their routes, this system also worked when it came to cabotage and landing rights around the world. Would such a system work now? Not a chance! The world airlines are now unregulated and run by bean counters, most of whoom simply lack any vision beyond the quartely reports, only Branson seems to understand that one must have a vision of a long term future for the airline and employees. Its all about ones view of the world, is an airline simply another cash machine, rather than a part of our civilised infrastructure to provide safe, sound service to all parts of the world, not just the major cities? To sum up, one does not use bully tactics or phoney claims about spin of benifits to negotiate any international agreement,this applies to both large and small nations,in the mean time for those great suporters of a totally de regulated industry, look around, is it a better place to be now than it was thirty years ago? I think not.
Last edited by clunckdriver; 6th Aug 2010 at 13:15.
Better for whom?
In 1958 my parents purchased tickets on TCA from London to Vancouver, 24 hours for 400 lb Sterling. That is easily over $5000 today. My dad had a PhD in Chemistry and maybe earned 2500 lb/pa
Deregulation has worked for consumers. Flying is faster, more destinations, cheaper and safer. What is not to like?
Pilots may be earning less is relative terms, but they are still doing better than coal gas engineers who have no jobs. (In the 60's being a CE engineer was a licensee to print cash, then natural gas showed up and surprise.) Don't like it train and get into the next industry that is going up. It may come as a surprise to many but the airline business is not here to provide jobs for employees, it is there to create money for shareholders (not that is does a lot if that either).
Canadian consumers have always being screwed by the regulated airlines and the pilots on the right side of the blanket have being quite happy to be part of it. Do a search and you will find pictures of AC pilots picketing parliament to save the public from the terror of Wardair flying 747's.
AC still has a regulated mentality and I don't know whether to laugh or retch when I hear pilots talking about passengers being "our work"
Airline transport is a commodity, like cars, jeans and cell phones. Keeping Emirates out is nothing to do with fairness, it is everything to do with with keeping the competition out and prices high. Basically screw the majority to keep wages up for a small minority.
There are very few people in Canada whose livelihood is not being impacted by the world markets in some respect and we are all getting pinched from the miner to the autoworkers to the farmers. Why do airlines get a right to keep out the competition when no one else can?
20driver
PS - The WSJ had an excellent article about the golden age of aviation some weeks back. Seems it wasn't that great after all.
Deregulation has worked for consumers. Flying is faster, more destinations, cheaper and safer. What is not to like?
Pilots may be earning less is relative terms, but they are still doing better than coal gas engineers who have no jobs. (In the 60's being a CE engineer was a licensee to print cash, then natural gas showed up and surprise.) Don't like it train and get into the next industry that is going up. It may come as a surprise to many but the airline business is not here to provide jobs for employees, it is there to create money for shareholders (not that is does a lot if that either).
Canadian consumers have always being screwed by the regulated airlines and the pilots on the right side of the blanket have being quite happy to be part of it. Do a search and you will find pictures of AC pilots picketing parliament to save the public from the terror of Wardair flying 747's.
AC still has a regulated mentality and I don't know whether to laugh or retch when I hear pilots talking about passengers being "our work"
Airline transport is a commodity, like cars, jeans and cell phones. Keeping Emirates out is nothing to do with fairness, it is everything to do with with keeping the competition out and prices high. Basically screw the majority to keep wages up for a small minority.
There are very few people in Canada whose livelihood is not being impacted by the world markets in some respect and we are all getting pinched from the miner to the autoworkers to the farmers. Why do airlines get a right to keep out the competition when no one else can?
20driver
PS - The WSJ had an excellent article about the golden age of aviation some weeks back. Seems it wasn't that great after all.
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DA20, I presume you mean Pounds Stirling, not lbs mass? Pity the Brits switched to Metric, was always fun trying to work things out over there.Yes, air fares were expensive back then, I paid $1750 to get to the UK in 1959 , however, the drop in fares generated by the advent of turbine aircraft coming into wide use brought fares way down to the point that we used comercial to rotate pilots to various parts of the world as it was cheaper than we could do using our RCAF aircraft. Having said that and having survived for twenty one years operating our own outfit I can assure you that the present rock bottom fares are a sure path to going belly up in the long run, most are only covering the DOCs. As to AC picketing to keep Max out of the sky, what the hell is the difference between this and Porters stand vis a vis Jazz? It would be nice to text you on this subject, but the bastions of free enterprise in the Sand Box wont let this happen of course, so much for free competition and open doors!
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Clunk, your argument doesn't hold water!
If nations withheld landing slots because there were no bi-lateral benefits, then why has the UK Government granted slots for 100 EK flights per week into the UK? The UK has a population of around 60 million (about twice that of Canada), and the UAE a population of 5 million. Using your reasoning, the UK has nothing to gain and the the UAE everything...... But you well know that this is not the case.
Australia is another example of where the government is refusing to buckle to pressure from its National Carrier Qantas by using protectionism. Its allowing huge access to EK, EY and QR increasing every year, because even the the Aussies recognise the important benefits of free competition. Do you not think that these governments have looked into whether EK is a legitimate business? Or are you saying that the UK Government are stupid? Bare in mind the UK GDP is considerably bigger than that of Canada before you answer that
The point that everyone seems to be missing is that there is HUGE demand for extra services from Canada. ALL flights to/from YYZ ARE overbooked, and yet AC is still in existence! AC will not 'go under' if EK are granted greater access as the extra people to fill the extra flights already exist! Why can't people see it??
If nations withheld landing slots because there were no bi-lateral benefits, then why has the UK Government granted slots for 100 EK flights per week into the UK? The UK has a population of around 60 million (about twice that of Canada), and the UAE a population of 5 million. Using your reasoning, the UK has nothing to gain and the the UAE everything...... But you well know that this is not the case.
Australia is another example of where the government is refusing to buckle to pressure from its National Carrier Qantas by using protectionism. Its allowing huge access to EK, EY and QR increasing every year, because even the the Aussies recognise the important benefits of free competition. Do you not think that these governments have looked into whether EK is a legitimate business? Or are you saying that the UK Government are stupid? Bare in mind the UK GDP is considerably bigger than that of Canada before you answer that
The point that everyone seems to be missing is that there is HUGE demand for extra services from Canada. ALL flights to/from YYZ ARE overbooked, and yet AC is still in existence! AC will not 'go under' if EK are granted greater access as the extra people to fill the extra flights already exist! Why can't people see it??
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Oblaaspop,the number of flights into Aus has far more to do with the $4.9 billion trade that the Sandbox does with Western Aus alone each year and the 15,000 ex pats living there than any policy regarding Qantas, its all about quid pro, nothing to do with open skies/cabotage/bilaterals. As Canada doesnt need oil or other items from the Sand Box, then there is no need to give a darn thing. Hows your Blackberry working?
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Thanks for your concern Clunk, but I never really could see the point of a Blackberry (crappy Canadian invention if you ask me), so I went for an iPhone instead
On your other points, trade between the UAE and Canada in 2008 was $1.6bn and here are some facts and figures from 2006 that you may find of interest:
The UAE is Canada's largest export market in the Middle East and North Africa.
More than 100 Canadian firms are present in the UAE, including in the aerospace, construction and health care sectors.
More than 12,000 Canadians live and work in UAE.
The Canadian Business Council of Dubai and the Northern Emirates and the Canadian Business Council of Abu Dhabi have more than 500 members representing many professions including engineers and project managers.
Canadian exports include aircraft and aircraft simulators, telecommunications equipment, medical instruments, agri-food products, precious stones, metals and minerals.
Canadian imports from UAE include oil, chemicals, iron and steel products, minerals and precious stones, and textiles.
Bare in mind that these figures are a little old now, so they are likely far higher than those shown above (I couldn't be bothered to go further down the Google page). They come from the Canadian Government Foreign Affairs and International Trade website.... Check it out, you might actually learn something, instead of posting crap!!
Now, were there any other of your silly little fires you'd like me to p1ss on??
On your other points, trade between the UAE and Canada in 2008 was $1.6bn and here are some facts and figures from 2006 that you may find of interest:
The UAE is Canada's largest export market in the Middle East and North Africa.
More than 100 Canadian firms are present in the UAE, including in the aerospace, construction and health care sectors.
More than 12,000 Canadians live and work in UAE.
The Canadian Business Council of Dubai and the Northern Emirates and the Canadian Business Council of Abu Dhabi have more than 500 members representing many professions including engineers and project managers.
Canadian exports include aircraft and aircraft simulators, telecommunications equipment, medical instruments, agri-food products, precious stones, metals and minerals.
Canadian imports from UAE include oil, chemicals, iron and steel products, minerals and precious stones, and textiles.
Bare in mind that these figures are a little old now, so they are likely far higher than those shown above (I couldn't be bothered to go further down the Google page). They come from the Canadian Government Foreign Affairs and International Trade website.... Check it out, you might actually learn something, instead of posting crap!!
Now, were there any other of your silly little fires you'd like me to p1ss on??
Still no answer
Clunk, long evasive non reply.
Simply explain to us why this is not just AC seeking protection from competition, something they, and all other legacy national carriers, have done for years.
You seem to have being around a bit. Why did Max (and Freddy) go under? Wouldn't have being anything to do with cartel pricing from our virgin chorus over at AC among others.
If people want to fly Emirates and Emirates wants to take the risk to expand operations in Canada why not let them have that choice? They along with SQ and others have lots of service from NYC and the world has not fallen in.
This is nothing but AC wanting to keep their home base closed to outsiders who might offer a better product at a better price served with a better attitude. (The attitude is I admit a very very low bar when it comes to AC)
20driver
PS - If the UAE is so objectionable that they should be kept out of Canada, what are you doing over there supporting their economy
Simply explain to us why this is not just AC seeking protection from competition, something they, and all other legacy national carriers, have done for years.
You seem to have being around a bit. Why did Max (and Freddy) go under? Wouldn't have being anything to do with cartel pricing from our virgin chorus over at AC among others.
If people want to fly Emirates and Emirates wants to take the risk to expand operations in Canada why not let them have that choice? They along with SQ and others have lots of service from NYC and the world has not fallen in.
This is nothing but AC wanting to keep their home base closed to outsiders who might offer a better product at a better price served with a better attitude. (The attitude is I admit a very very low bar when it comes to AC)
20driver
PS - If the UAE is so objectionable that they should be kept out of Canada, what are you doing over there supporting their economy
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Yes its Sterling, not Stirling, which proves my English teacher was right when she described my spelling in English as "Original" , she even wrote it on my school report!Gota love those old time one room school ladies, no PC comments from them!