Emirates vs. Air Canada
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Between the sheets
Posts: 159
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rollingthunder;
Not that I am supporting this move on the part of the UAE gov't expelling the Canadian troops, and not like your point has anything to do with it anyways...
I would like you to clarify a point you are trying to make. You seem to be saying that what Emirates wants to do is to fly pax from Europe to Canada in 380s, then move them from Canada to elsewhere (or in Canada, whatever) using smaller planes, 777s let's say. And you say Emirates has done this in other places in the world. Really? Any examples? Because I've been flying for them for 2 years and I have no idea what you're speaking about.
Not that I am supporting this move on the part of the UAE gov't expelling the Canadian troops, and not like your point has anything to do with it anyways...
I would like you to clarify a point you are trying to make. You seem to be saying that what Emirates wants to do is to fly pax from Europe to Canada in 380s, then move them from Canada to elsewhere (or in Canada, whatever) using smaller planes, 777s let's say. And you say Emirates has done this in other places in the world. Really? Any examples? Because I've been flying for them for 2 years and I have no idea what you're speaking about.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Hades.
Posts: 752
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
enginefireleft
Welcome to the real world! It's called commercial competition (shall we ban AC from LHR/LGW etc?) and unfortunately for some, the middle east airlines have various advantages to start with. However, add in some very clever commercial planners and intelligent leadership combined with giving passengers a better deal than they are getting from the legacy carriers & .... voila, you're dead in the water.
Hubris: excessive pride or self-confidence.
$40 Million a week profit is not hubris.
5 new destinations this year is not hubris.
Double figure increase in pax year on year is not hubris.
Etc, etc, etc.
I DON'T support the Camp Mirage thing. Military should be kept separate, especially with Mr Ahminadinnerjaket next door
poaching passengers away from the local carriers in the countries they fly to
I think they are stupid, and increasingly desperate given the huge numbers of airplanes they had the hubris to order.
$40 Million a week profit is not hubris.
5 new destinations this year is not hubris.
Double figure increase in pax year on year is not hubris.
Etc, etc, etc.
I DON'T support the Camp Mirage thing. Military should be kept separate, especially with Mr Ahminadinnerjaket next door
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like the rest of the world may follow Canada's lead:
I hope they do.
Air France CEO Calls for EU Curbs on Expansion by Gulf Carriers
By Laurence Frost and Andrea Rothman -
document.write(dateFormat(new Date(1286814122000),"mmm d, yyyy h:MM TT Z"));
Oct Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, chief executive officer for Air France-KLM Group. Photographer: Antoine Antoniol/Bloomberg
Air France-KLM Group is teaming upwith Europe’s biggest airlines to push for European Union actionto slow the encroachment of Emirates and other Gulf carriers,saying the region’s status as an air-travel hub is under threat.
“Europe is at the crossroads of international air travel,and this is a role we need to value and defend,” Air FranceChief Executive Officer Pierre-Henri Gourgeon said in aninterview. “What we’re telling the authorities is that we needa strategy that gives us a chance to resist.”
Gourgeon, British Airways Plc CEO Willie Walsh and DeutscheLufthansa AG’s Wolfgang Mayrhuber are among executives scheduledto attend a meeting of the Association of European Airlines onOct. 15 in London. They will discuss a joint push with Americanrivals for a change to the export-guarantee regime and thetrans-Atlantic trade agreement that enshrines it, said Christian de Barrin, a spokesman of the Brussels-based industry group.
For the past two decades, the U.S. and Europe have agreedto withhold export credit guarantees from airlines registered infive countries where Airbus SAS and Boeing Co. airliners arebuilt: Britain, France, Germany, Spain and the U.S. This meansmany European and all American carriers are denied cheapergovernment-backed plane financing available to rivals fromcountries including Gulf states.
‘Home-Country’ Rule
The role of export financing has ballooned since the creditcrunch reduced banks’ willingness to lend. The share of planedeliveries covered by government guarantees more than doubled to34 percent in 2009, Airbus and Boeing figures show.
“Our ability to fund the acquisition of new aircraft ishandicapped by the so-called ‘home-country’ rule,” BA spokesmanPaul Marston said. “These guarantees are not operating in theway they were intended -- and we therefore urge the EU to amendthe rules to remove the competitive distortions that havedeveloped.”
In a policy paper published on its website last week,Lufthansa called for an end to “market imbalances” resultingfrom export-credit financing, saying “basic rules of regulatorypolicy are being disregarded.”
Emirates, the biggest Gulf carrier, already pays verylittle in the way of airport charges or fuel tax at its Dubaihub, as well as escaping many of the social charges that weighon European companies, Air France’s Gourgeon said. Thosebenefits could generate 3 billion euros ($4.2 billion) ofoperating income if applied to Air France-KLM, he said.
No Tax?
“When you’re supported in this way you can offer the endproduct at very low prices,” the CEO said in the Oct. 7interview at Air France’s headquarters near Paris Charles deGaulle airport. “They don’t pay tax -- they don’t even have aword for it.”
European carriers may also seek action under EU Regulation868, which imposes protective duties on foreign carriers thatuse subsidies or other forms of “non-commercial advantage” toundercut prices, the AEA’s de Barrin said.
“When so many entities and economies around the world arebeing shored up by governments in order to survive, it issurprising to single out Emirates with unsubstantiated claims ofbeing subsidized,” President Tim Clark said in commentse-mailed to Bloomberg. “We have grown without subsidy throughthe success of our commercially-driven business model -- and seeno reason to apologize for what we have achieved.”
Qatar, Etihad
John Clancy, trade spokesman at the European Commission,the 27-nation EU’s executive arm in Brussels, didn’t immediatelyhave a comment. Neither did Helen Kearns, the commission’sspokeswoman for transportation.
Emirates overtook Lufthansa last year as the biggestcarrier on international flights, thanks to a sixfold increasein traffic since 2000, when it ranked 24th. British Airways, topin 2000, now stands fourth in the International Air TransportAssociation ranking, which treats Air France and KLM as separateairlines.
Airbus and Boeing together have outstanding orders for 102widebody planes from Qatar Airways, 59 from Etihad Airways and175 from Emirates, which has already taken delivery of 13 of the90 Airbus A380 superjumbos it has ordered in total.
The U.S. Export-Import Bank guaranteed $414 million ofEmirates bonds last year to fund the purchase three Boeing 777jets, an example of the cheaper financing that would be offlimits for Lufthansa or Southwest Airlines Inc.
Level Playing Field
“There’s definitely an argument that there needs to be alevel playing field in financing,” said Howard Wheeldon, seniorstrategist at BGC Partners. “Any pressure that France, Britainand Germany can bring to bear makes good sense.”
For investment-grade U.S. carriers, cost savings from theagency-guaranteed financing they are denied would amount to 3percent of total loan value annually, according to Air Francedata comparing the spreads on guaranteed debt with those ofcommercially traded plane-financing notes over the past twoyears.
“That’s a lot of money,” Marc Verspyck, the Frenchcarrier’s senior vice president for finance, said in aninterview. In addition to the actual savings, eligibility forguarantees cuts financing risk when ordering planes, he said.
Air France rose 1.4 percent to 12 euros at the 5:30 p.m.close of trading in Paris. Lufthansa slipped 0.4 percent to14.35 euros on the Frankfurt exchange. British Airways gained1.6 percent to 268.4 pence in London.
Manchester Route
European airlines may struggle to maintain efficientconnections as Middle Eastern carriers lure more passengers awaywith new destinations, Gourgeon said. He cited Emirates’sintroduction of an Airbus A380 superjumbo flying between Dubaiand Manchester, northern England, since last month.
“It will progressively become more difficult for BritishAirways to have enough passengers to offer the same frequency offlights to Hong Kong,” the CEO said. Traffic through Paris,Milan and Munich would also suffer, he said.
If left unchecked, the competitive imbalance between theGulf and Europe will eventually lead to a mass shift in stopovertraffic, and other economic activities, to Middle Eastern hubs,Gourgeon said.
“I think it’s very dangerous for Europe,” he said. “Whatthey’re trying to do is buy our jobs.”
To contact the reporters on this story:Laurence Frost in Paris at [email protected]Andrea Rothman in Paris at [email protected]
To contact the editors responsible for this story:Kenneth Wong at [email protected];Benedikt Kammel at [email protected]
I hope they do.
Air France CEO Calls for EU Curbs on Expansion by Gulf Carriers
By Laurence Frost and Andrea Rothman -
document.write(dateFormat(new Date(1286814122000),"mmm d, yyyy h:MM TT Z"));
Oct Pierre-Henri Gourgeon, chief executive officer for Air France-KLM Group. Photographer: Antoine Antoniol/Bloomberg
Air France-KLM Group is teaming upwith Europe’s biggest airlines to push for European Union actionto slow the encroachment of Emirates and other Gulf carriers,saying the region’s status as an air-travel hub is under threat.
“Europe is at the crossroads of international air travel,and this is a role we need to value and defend,” Air FranceChief Executive Officer Pierre-Henri Gourgeon said in aninterview. “What we’re telling the authorities is that we needa strategy that gives us a chance to resist.”
Gourgeon, British Airways Plc CEO Willie Walsh and DeutscheLufthansa AG’s Wolfgang Mayrhuber are among executives scheduledto attend a meeting of the Association of European Airlines onOct. 15 in London. They will discuss a joint push with Americanrivals for a change to the export-guarantee regime and thetrans-Atlantic trade agreement that enshrines it, said Christian de Barrin, a spokesman of the Brussels-based industry group.
For the past two decades, the U.S. and Europe have agreedto withhold export credit guarantees from airlines registered infive countries where Airbus SAS and Boeing Co. airliners arebuilt: Britain, France, Germany, Spain and the U.S. This meansmany European and all American carriers are denied cheapergovernment-backed plane financing available to rivals fromcountries including Gulf states.
‘Home-Country’ Rule
The role of export financing has ballooned since the creditcrunch reduced banks’ willingness to lend. The share of planedeliveries covered by government guarantees more than doubled to34 percent in 2009, Airbus and Boeing figures show.
“Our ability to fund the acquisition of new aircraft ishandicapped by the so-called ‘home-country’ rule,” BA spokesmanPaul Marston said. “These guarantees are not operating in theway they were intended -- and we therefore urge the EU to amendthe rules to remove the competitive distortions that havedeveloped.”
In a policy paper published on its website last week,Lufthansa called for an end to “market imbalances” resultingfrom export-credit financing, saying “basic rules of regulatorypolicy are being disregarded.”
Emirates, the biggest Gulf carrier, already pays verylittle in the way of airport charges or fuel tax at its Dubaihub, as well as escaping many of the social charges that weighon European companies, Air France’s Gourgeon said. Thosebenefits could generate 3 billion euros ($4.2 billion) ofoperating income if applied to Air France-KLM, he said.
No Tax?
“When you’re supported in this way you can offer the endproduct at very low prices,” the CEO said in the Oct. 7interview at Air France’s headquarters near Paris Charles deGaulle airport. “They don’t pay tax -- they don’t even have aword for it.”
European carriers may also seek action under EU Regulation868, which imposes protective duties on foreign carriers thatuse subsidies or other forms of “non-commercial advantage” toundercut prices, the AEA’s de Barrin said.
“When so many entities and economies around the world arebeing shored up by governments in order to survive, it issurprising to single out Emirates with unsubstantiated claims ofbeing subsidized,” President Tim Clark said in commentse-mailed to Bloomberg. “We have grown without subsidy throughthe success of our commercially-driven business model -- and seeno reason to apologize for what we have achieved.”
Qatar, Etihad
John Clancy, trade spokesman at the European Commission,the 27-nation EU’s executive arm in Brussels, didn’t immediatelyhave a comment. Neither did Helen Kearns, the commission’sspokeswoman for transportation.
Emirates overtook Lufthansa last year as the biggestcarrier on international flights, thanks to a sixfold increasein traffic since 2000, when it ranked 24th. British Airways, topin 2000, now stands fourth in the International Air TransportAssociation ranking, which treats Air France and KLM as separateairlines.
Airbus and Boeing together have outstanding orders for 102widebody planes from Qatar Airways, 59 from Etihad Airways and175 from Emirates, which has already taken delivery of 13 of the90 Airbus A380 superjumbos it has ordered in total.
The U.S. Export-Import Bank guaranteed $414 million ofEmirates bonds last year to fund the purchase three Boeing 777jets, an example of the cheaper financing that would be offlimits for Lufthansa or Southwest Airlines Inc.
Level Playing Field
“There’s definitely an argument that there needs to be alevel playing field in financing,” said Howard Wheeldon, seniorstrategist at BGC Partners. “Any pressure that France, Britainand Germany can bring to bear makes good sense.”
For investment-grade U.S. carriers, cost savings from theagency-guaranteed financing they are denied would amount to 3percent of total loan value annually, according to Air Francedata comparing the spreads on guaranteed debt with those ofcommercially traded plane-financing notes over the past twoyears.
“That’s a lot of money,” Marc Verspyck, the Frenchcarrier’s senior vice president for finance, said in aninterview. In addition to the actual savings, eligibility forguarantees cuts financing risk when ordering planes, he said.
Air France rose 1.4 percent to 12 euros at the 5:30 p.m.close of trading in Paris. Lufthansa slipped 0.4 percent to14.35 euros on the Frankfurt exchange. British Airways gained1.6 percent to 268.4 pence in London.
Manchester Route
European airlines may struggle to maintain efficientconnections as Middle Eastern carriers lure more passengers awaywith new destinations, Gourgeon said. He cited Emirates’sintroduction of an Airbus A380 superjumbo flying between Dubaiand Manchester, northern England, since last month.
“It will progressively become more difficult for BritishAirways to have enough passengers to offer the same frequency offlights to Hong Kong,” the CEO said. Traffic through Paris,Milan and Munich would also suffer, he said.
If left unchecked, the competitive imbalance between theGulf and Europe will eventually lead to a mass shift in stopovertraffic, and other economic activities, to Middle Eastern hubs,Gourgeon said.
“I think it’s very dangerous for Europe,” he said. “Whatthey’re trying to do is buy our jobs.”
To contact the reporters on this story:Laurence Frost in Paris at [email protected]Andrea Rothman in Paris at [email protected]
To contact the editors responsible for this story:Kenneth Wong at [email protected];Benedikt Kammel at [email protected]
It would seem our 
"friends" at the U.A.E. like hardball......
By The Associated Press, cbc.ca, Updated: October 14, 2010 10:27 AM UAE lobbied against Canada's UN bid
A UAE official says the country lobbied against Canada's bid for a United Nations Security Council seat in the latest blow to relations that have soured after disputes over airline routes.
The official says the United Arab Emirates opposed Canada's UN effort in part because of its trade policies. Canada failed earlier this week to win one of the non-permanent Security Council seats after coming behind Portugal in second ballot voting in New York.
The UAE has pushed back hard against Ottawa for not opening up more routes for its airlines Emirates and Etihad. Canadian troops are being forced to leave Camp Mirage, a military base in Dubai used to supply Canadian forces in Afghanistan.
The UAE official spoke on condition of anonymity Thursday because of standing government rules on behind-the-scenes briefings. Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said the lack of support from Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff for Canada's bid helped scuttle it, an assertion Ignatieff called "ridiculous."
The Liberals have also criticized the Conservative government's handling of negotiations with the UAE, but NDP defence critic Jack Harris said he supported the government on the issue.
"friends" at the U.A.E. like hardball......By The Associated Press, cbc.ca, Updated: October 14, 2010 10:27 AM UAE lobbied against Canada's UN bid
A UAE official says the country lobbied against Canada's bid for a United Nations Security Council seat in the latest blow to relations that have soured after disputes over airline routes.
The official says the United Arab Emirates opposed Canada's UN effort in part because of its trade policies. Canada failed earlier this week to win one of the non-permanent Security Council seats after coming behind Portugal in second ballot voting in New York.
The UAE has pushed back hard against Ottawa for not opening up more routes for its airlines Emirates and Etihad. Canadian troops are being forced to leave Camp Mirage, a military base in Dubai used to supply Canadian forces in Afghanistan.
The UAE official spoke on condition of anonymity Thursday because of standing government rules on behind-the-scenes briefings. Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said the lack of support from Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff for Canada's bid helped scuttle it, an assertion Ignatieff called "ridiculous."
The Liberals have also criticized the Conservative government's handling of negotiations with the UAE, but NDP defence critic Jack Harris said he supported the government on the issue.
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 14th Oct 2010 at 15:51. Reason: Clarity
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 237
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A UAE official says the country lobbied against Canada's bid for a United Nations Security Council seat in the latest blow to relations that have soured after disputes over airline routes.
They've supplanted the art of negotiation for the sledge hammer of extortion.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let`s hope Canada , and the remaining members of ICAO do not forget these diplomatic swipes anytime too soon . The UAE think that because they spend billions of $ on aircraft in the USA (with Boeing) and in Europe (with Airbus) , that they can do whatever they want in the marketplace . Any and all resistance to Emirates`/ Etihad`s plans in the future will thus be met in a similiar fashion. They have shown their cards , and have thus admitted that denial and humiliation are unacceptable and domination of the industry is the goal . No wonder they haven`t joined Star , One World or Skyteam. They don`t need them , nor are they team players.
The fare paying public are too narrow minded and short sighted to see the long term implications here. Remember how a decade`s worth of cheap imports into the USA from China had a helping hand in the outsourcing of manufacturing and the demise of GDP in the West ? The USA and Europe are about to commit the same mistake with aviation. Strike 3 and you are out. Time to say NO to the UAE. Does anyone else see this ????
The fare paying public are too narrow minded and short sighted to see the long term implications here. Remember how a decade`s worth of cheap imports into the USA from China had a helping hand in the outsourcing of manufacturing and the demise of GDP in the West ? The USA and Europe are about to commit the same mistake with aviation. Strike 3 and you are out. Time to say NO to the UAE. Does anyone else see this ????
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those of us who have had the misfortune to have dealings in this part of the world, such bully tactics come as no suprise, the majority of the governments in this part of the globe are unable, by dint of their religon/culture unable to seperate politics/trade/culture and behavior, if you havnt dealt with them and dont at least have a working grasp of their language its very hard to understand how imature their view of the world and other cultures really is , I trust that those ex pats who suport the actions of this bunch putting our troops in at the very least a supply problem, at the worst mortal danger dont expect to return to Canada and take advantage of the very real benifits of living in a country where the rule of law is held supreme, but Im sure they will !. I can only hope that ALL the landing rights in Canada are withdrawn from these folks,we dont need them and most dont want them here if this type of behavior continues., Im not holding my breath that they will change untill the rest of the world pushes back,and it will.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
Age: 49
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The fare paying public are too narrow minded and short sighted to see the long term implications here
What are the long term implications??? Air Canada are going to go out of business? Air France? KLM? The American carriers were doing so before Emirates showed up. Air Canada had financial problems before Emirates showed up.
Sorry not buying it. I still maintain that interational aviation reeks of hypocrisy and a holier than thou attitude. The legacy carriers are there for that reason (go look up BAs history of dirty tricks against Virgin) and the Canadian aviation landscape has many a sour tale to tell against the largest carrier.
So Emirates and the UAE are corrupt, bullying, immature, liars, unwanted, dishonest, dangerous, backwards...etc etc etc. They are probably looking at the West and laughing at the double standards.
The UAE think that because they spend billions of $ on aircraft in the USA (with Boeing) and in Europe (with Airbus) , that they can do whatever they want in the marketplace
Yawn!! Emirates today....who will it be tomorrow?
Last edited by Married a Canadian; 14th Oct 2010 at 22:17.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... Married a Canadian , it`s all about competitive advantage/ disadvantage. As this is a flight crew oriented forum , I am certain that most flight crewmembers with EK and/or EY would agree that it is to THEIR disadvantage that their government run airline is so closely aligned with their regulatory body. Imagine American Airlines and the FAA having the same owner. How about Transport Canada and Air Canada ? Qantas and CASA ? British Airways and the UK CAA ? Now do you get it ? Do you feel safer knowing that the fox is guarding the henhouse ? You shouldn`t ! If there was such a thing as transparency in the UAE , perhaps you would see what you refuse to acknowledge as reality. That`s just a start. The airlines of the UAE possess an unfair , untenable and unrealistic competitive advantage versus most other ICAO / IATA airlines. We haven`t even mentioned the safety implications of this frightening arrangement. The Canadian government should stand firm.
To all Canadians living in our great country please use the letter below as a template to compose a letter to The Right Honourable Steven Harper P.C. M.P. to show your support in his actions.
Your address here
October 14, 2010
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington St
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A2
Attention: The Right Honourable Steven Harper Prime Minister P.C. M.P.
Dear Prime Minister Harper:
I am writing you today to register the condescension that I feel towards the United Arab Emirates in their diplomatic blackmail to secure unprecedented landing rights into Canada. This blackmail is extremely odious given the fact that over 150 fine Canadian men and women in the Canadian Armed Forces have given their lives to secure freedom from Muslim extremists in Afghanistan. I should note that the absence of any military from the U.A.E. to support Muslim brothers and sisters would suggest duplicity of the highest order on the government of the U.A.E.
I compliment your government stand in not giving into these repellent demands.
To pay tribute on the sordid demands that the U.A.E. Government foisted on to our military at Camp Mirage may I suggest the following:
· Have the Honourable Chuck Strahl Minister of Transport advise the Government of the U.A.E. that First and Second Freedoms of the air are denied to all U.A.E. aircraft
· Only allow flights that have already been agreed to but with "restrictive" slot times for arrival and departures from current airports in Canada that they serve
· Rescind the use of all Canadian Airports as alternate airports for their operational requirements
·Have the Honourable Lawrence Cannon advise the Government of the U.A.E. that citizens of the U.A.E. can only come to Canada under very restrictive visa requirements
Thanking you in advance, I remain
Your name here
cc
The Honourable Chuck Strahl Minister of Transport P.C. M.P.
The Honourable Lawrence Cannon Minister of Foreign Affairs, P.C. M.P.
The Honourable your M.P. here
Your address here
October 14, 2010
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington St
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A2
Attention: The Right Honourable Steven Harper Prime Minister P.C. M.P.
Dear Prime Minister Harper:
I am writing you today to register the condescension that I feel towards the United Arab Emirates in their diplomatic blackmail to secure unprecedented landing rights into Canada. This blackmail is extremely odious given the fact that over 150 fine Canadian men and women in the Canadian Armed Forces have given their lives to secure freedom from Muslim extremists in Afghanistan. I should note that the absence of any military from the U.A.E. to support Muslim brothers and sisters would suggest duplicity of the highest order on the government of the U.A.E.
I compliment your government stand in not giving into these repellent demands.
To pay tribute on the sordid demands that the U.A.E. Government foisted on to our military at Camp Mirage may I suggest the following:
· Have the Honourable Chuck Strahl Minister of Transport advise the Government of the U.A.E. that First and Second Freedoms of the air are denied to all U.A.E. aircraft
· Only allow flights that have already been agreed to but with "restrictive" slot times for arrival and departures from current airports in Canada that they serve
· Rescind the use of all Canadian Airports as alternate airports for their operational requirements
·Have the Honourable Lawrence Cannon advise the Government of the U.A.E. that citizens of the U.A.E. can only come to Canada under very restrictive visa requirements
Thanking you in advance, I remain
Your name here
cc
The Honourable Chuck Strahl Minister of Transport P.C. M.P.
The Honourable Lawrence Cannon Minister of Foreign Affairs, P.C. M.P.
The Honourable your M.P. here
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 14th Oct 2010 at 20:17. Reason: Clarity
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMHO this is simply about Emirates trying to find somewhere else to operate an A380 or two and nothing more. They've ordered a sh**load of these buggers and if they ever had to default on payments, park or cancel orders because they hadn't anywhere to operate them would be a complete disaster for EK and a complete embarassment for a certain ruling party member. Not to mention what it would do to Airbus.
That's probably not going to happen. Face saving is the order of the day out there and the UAE will, in its own way, try to show us who's the boss. I suspect EK will move on to other markets with their A380s.
I say, good luck. Good game.
Canada is out of Afghanistan next year. Camp Mirage is now Camp Yesterday and that's fine. Perhaps Shk al Thani will step up and offer Canada an interim solution. I for one, won't be losing any sleep over this. In fact, we can't get our troops out of there soon enough as far as I'm concerned.
Don't look for GCC unity on this issue after what AUH and DXB did to GF and QR.
And another thing, the UN Security Council gig for Canada is no great loss either. The UN mafia rarely acknowledge what counties fund the place as it is. Should Canada really waste more $$$ on that organization?
I wonder, how long would it take EK to realize operating from YYC and YVR even without competition, was a money losing proposition for them and pull out?
I would react to this UAE hissy fit by doing nothing and simply get our troops out of the UAE. The UAE needs to decide what it's role is in fighting terrorism whilst the remainder of the world watches and waits for its decision.
There are no flies on Canada.
Willie
That's probably not going to happen. Face saving is the order of the day out there and the UAE will, in its own way, try to show us who's the boss. I suspect EK will move on to other markets with their A380s.
I say, good luck. Good game.
Canada is out of Afghanistan next year. Camp Mirage is now Camp Yesterday and that's fine. Perhaps Shk al Thani will step up and offer Canada an interim solution. I for one, won't be losing any sleep over this. In fact, we can't get our troops out of there soon enough as far as I'm concerned.
Don't look for GCC unity on this issue after what AUH and DXB did to GF and QR.
And another thing, the UN Security Council gig for Canada is no great loss either. The UN mafia rarely acknowledge what counties fund the place as it is. Should Canada really waste more $$$ on that organization?
I wonder, how long would it take EK to realize operating from YYC and YVR even without competition, was a money losing proposition for them and pull out?
I would react to this UAE hissy fit by doing nothing and simply get our troops out of the UAE. The UAE needs to decide what it's role is in fighting terrorism whilst the remainder of the world watches and waits for its decision.
There are no flies on Canada.
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 14th Oct 2010 at 20:44.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... and the UAE , along with Saudi Arabia were two of the few countries to formally and legally recognize the Taliban as the Government of Afghanistan. How quickly people forget recent history. Allies ? I think not.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ignore them. Let them cry themselves to sleep... what have they done for us lately?
I don't usually agree with Harper but good on him for protecting our industry.
+1 with Willie...
I say take the Swiss approach and participate on the humanitarian side (UNICEF etc)... leave the rest to bicker and use the effort to look after our own country's best interests...
I don't usually agree with Harper but good on him for protecting our industry.
+1 with Willie...
I say take the Swiss approach and participate on the humanitarian side (UNICEF etc)... leave the rest to bicker and use the effort to look after our own country's best interests...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
Age: 49
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
6000PIC
I have disagreed with this statement before. For Emirates to fly into other countries airspaces they have to meet the safety criteria of the particular regulating bodies.
In reading the middle east forums and hearing afew of the comments on here it does sound like Emirates push their crews pretty hard and there seem to be some disgruntled employees out there
HOWEVER neither the CAA or the FAA or Transport Canada or any of the other bodies have said that Emirates are unsafe to fly into the Heathrows, Torontos and New Yorks.
1001 Crash - Airlines Black List
The above should link to a recent black list in the UK and the US...I do not see Emirates on it.
Now there is either some major palm greasing going in..(which I do not believe...as that would mean said regulatory bodies do not care about safety)...or at the present time Emirates do not operate as dodgy an operation as some people on PPRUNE seem to believe. It may push the limits but has not been considered to be unsafe......fox guarding the chicken coop or not.
You ask if I feel safe with that arrangement?? I feel safe that Transport Canada...and before that the CAA do their jobs and decide who is safe to fly in the airspace I work. If they are making a mistake then lay the finger of blame at them.
The problem I have with this statement is as I have repeatedly said before...comparing it to other ICAO/IATA airlines should only be fair when you gauge HOW they became the legacy carriers they are today. If any airline that has THIS big a problem with Emirates can really say they are squeaky clean in the way they have conducted business over the years of aviation then by all means get on the high horse. Be prepared to have your dealings over the years picked over at fine length.
Competitive advantage?? Compared to what? Air Canada vs Porter? BA vs Virgin (at the start)
The problem with this situation is the politics attached, the region involved (by that I mean culture, mentality) and the fact it is a patriotic situation...which will fan the flames of any debate. Canada vs the UAE and all the associated that goes along with it.
It makes for murky waters when it really should be a simple debate of does Canada/Emirates need the extra slots. Emirates have scored an own goal this week by bringing attention to all these extra shennanigans when they could have gained more sympathy by hammering home the "protection" argument that it could be viewed that Air Canada are receiving.
The responses since the situation blew up reinforce that.
I still believe they should be given as many slots as they want and let them succeed or fail based on the market. Let the politics play out away from this argument.
We haven`t even mentioned the safety implications of this frightening arrangement
In reading the middle east forums and hearing afew of the comments on here it does sound like Emirates push their crews pretty hard and there seem to be some disgruntled employees out there
HOWEVER neither the CAA or the FAA or Transport Canada or any of the other bodies have said that Emirates are unsafe to fly into the Heathrows, Torontos and New Yorks.
1001 Crash - Airlines Black List
The above should link to a recent black list in the UK and the US...I do not see Emirates on it.
Now there is either some major palm greasing going in..(which I do not believe...as that would mean said regulatory bodies do not care about safety)...or at the present time Emirates do not operate as dodgy an operation as some people on PPRUNE seem to believe. It may push the limits but has not been considered to be unsafe......fox guarding the chicken coop or not.
You ask if I feel safe with that arrangement?? I feel safe that Transport Canada...and before that the CAA do their jobs and decide who is safe to fly in the airspace I work. If they are making a mistake then lay the finger of blame at them.
The airlines of the UAE possess an unfair , untenable and unrealistic competitive advantage versus most other ICAO / IATA airlines
Competitive advantage?? Compared to what? Air Canada vs Porter? BA vs Virgin (at the start)
The problem with this situation is the politics attached, the region involved (by that I mean culture, mentality) and the fact it is a patriotic situation...which will fan the flames of any debate. Canada vs the UAE and all the associated that goes along with it.
It makes for murky waters when it really should be a simple debate of does Canada/Emirates need the extra slots. Emirates have scored an own goal this week by bringing attention to all these extra shennanigans when they could have gained more sympathy by hammering home the "protection" argument that it could be viewed that Air Canada are receiving.
The responses since the situation blew up reinforce that.
I still believe they should be given as many slots as they want and let them succeed or fail based on the market. Let the politics play out away from this argument.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tan, the answer to your question is NO, they wont get it till we kick them out of our airspace, I repeat, you have have delt with them to be able to understand their mind set, they have not a clue that they are shooting themselves in the foot, for person who has spent their life in a Western democracy and not been exposed to their mind set its almost impossible to grasp this .Such simplistic views as expressed by "Married to a Canadian" are on par with Chamberlins understanding of the Nazies, and we all know where that went! Maggie Thatcher understood this about the Argies and got it right, I hope our PM gets it right!
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: The World
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
clunckdriver
I talked to a few expatriate pilots who brought me up to speed on the game the Emirates play. I have no doubt the Emirates propaganda machine has hired ghost writers to defend their actions on all the forums and news media outlets. Unfortunately for them the cat is out of the bag and the Canadian public isn’t buying it...
I talked to a few expatriate pilots who brought me up to speed on the game the Emirates play. I have no doubt the Emirates propaganda machine has hired ghost writers to defend their actions on all the forums and news media outlets. Unfortunately for them the cat is out of the bag and the Canadian public isn’t buying it...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
Age: 49
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Such simplistic views
My simplistic views are based on what I know about Western business practices in the industry I work in.
It dosen't really matter to me what the UAE business practice is. People more knowledgeable than me are saying it is crooked and there is a particular mindset...Fine...I will concede to that.
No one so far has answered me on Western business practice. My simplistic view of things is that we are rank hypocrites and compel this situation by pretending otherwise...hiding behind the word "democracy". If all was so good in the West there would be no PPRUNE as there would be nothing to moan about, what with the upstanding honest companies we work for
. If Emirates go away will the Canadian section revert to all the happy pilots who are pleased with the way the industry is going?This debate does seem to have a certain "You don't understand the ramifications" or "You don't understand the Middle East", aimed at all the people like me.
And yet the ramifications by supposedly intelligent posters seem to be the complete collapse of the Canadian aviation market/economy...not to mention the Europeans and Americans aswell....Emirates flying rampant point to point in sovereign airspace serving cities in Canada direct before flying back to Dubai over the disused domestic carriers below them....international travel will all be via Dubai..even if I want to fly to Iceland from Toronto I would have to go via Dubai (it will be cheaper you see with EX).
Extreme? Then could all the intelligent posters once again tell me what is going to happen that is so bad?
Am I missing the amount of carriers that have gone under or entered bankruptcy on the world scene....Do we need to list Pre Emirates/Post Emirates?
You mentioned earlier in this debate Clunk that Emirates COULD be granted cabotage. Please! Even I would not be an advocate for that...any more than I would for British airways.
Easy to stir up the emotions on this topic because of the political and patriotic nature. In doing so though you "complicate" matters.
Let EK shoot themselves in the foot if that is what they seem to be doing...but stop using the "Western vs Middle East" argument. It grows tiresome when no one will comment on Western vs Western in the airline world.
Good Morning All:
From the Globe and Mail
Airlines battle ‘one-sided' agreement with Emirates
BRENT JANG — TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Oct. 13, 2010 5:30PM EDT
Last updated Wednesday, Oct. 13, 2010 11:24PM EDT
Ottawa’s refusal to grant new Canadian landing rights to the United Arab Emirates and allegations that Persian Gulf carriers thrive on subsidies have irked the head of Dubai’s airport, home to Emirates Airline.
Emirates, owned by the Dubai government, has been seeking to introduce flights to Calgary and Vancouver, as well as lobbying to gradually boost its Toronto service – currently limited to three round-trip flights a week between Dubai International Airport and Toronto’s Pearson International Airport.
Canada to leave Dubai base
But after Ottawa recently refused to grant greater access to Dubai-based Emirates and Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways, the UAE served notice that it will evict the Canadian Forces from Camp Mirage, a Persian Gulf base that serves as a crucial jump-off point to Afghanistan.
Paul Griffiths, chief executive officer at Dubai Airports Co., fired back Wednesday at critics in Canada and Europe, where Air France is leading a group of European and U.S. carriers to voice concerns about expansion-minded Emirates receiving low-interest aircraft financing and other subsidies.
“The only thing Dubai is guilty of is providing an environment that actually supports aviation,” Mr. Griffiths said in a statement. “Most governments around the world treat aviation as a pariah, choking its growth with costly, misdirected regulation, instead of adopting policies that recognize its considerable socio-economic benefits and support its sustainable growth. They then compound the problem with parasitic forms of taxation that usually flow straight out of the sector.”
The Air Canada Pilots Association began publicly attacking Emirates in the spring of 2009. Last March, Montreal-based Air Canada launched a series of stinging critiques against Emirates. “Few Canadians actually travel to Dubai as a destination and fewer still residents of Dubai travel to Canada,” Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu said in a recent speech in Montreal. “Simply put, it would be yet another defeat for Canada to adopt an unbalanced trade agreement with the UAE and allow for the dumping of seats into the Canadian market to siphon off profitable flying.”
Emirates’ growth strategy pits it against two Star Alliance partners, Air Canada and Germany’s Deutsche Lufthansa AG, which rely on Frankfurt as a key European hub. Dubai serves as a stopover hub for most Emirates travellers to and from Canada, so the battle is over international connecting traffic between Canada and the Middle East, Africa and the South Asian subcontinent, industry observers say.
Emirates has been pushing for up to 50 new takeoff and landing slots over the long term, but Air Canada and Transport Canada oppose the distribution of so many new flights, saying there have to be “reciprocal” benefits, and not the one-sided advantages for the UAE.
Air Canada argues that Emirates doesn’t really want to fly customers between Canada and Dubai, but instead sees the foreign carrier as aggressively seeking to skim off lucrative international traffic via the UAE.
“We want to have fair market conditions, and it’s the Canadian government’s call to judge and see if there are fair market conditions,” Lufthansa spokesman Martin Riecken said Wednesday. “If there’s a one-sided imbalance in the traffic rights situation, that is certainly not something we would support.”
From the Globe and Mail
Airlines battle ‘one-sided' agreement with Emirates
BRENT JANG — TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Oct. 13, 2010 5:30PM EDT
Last updated Wednesday, Oct. 13, 2010 11:24PM EDT
Ottawa’s refusal to grant new Canadian landing rights to the United Arab Emirates and allegations that Persian Gulf carriers thrive on subsidies have irked the head of Dubai’s airport, home to Emirates Airline.
Emirates, owned by the Dubai government, has been seeking to introduce flights to Calgary and Vancouver, as well as lobbying to gradually boost its Toronto service – currently limited to three round-trip flights a week between Dubai International Airport and Toronto’s Pearson International Airport.
Canada to leave Dubai base
But after Ottawa recently refused to grant greater access to Dubai-based Emirates and Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways, the UAE served notice that it will evict the Canadian Forces from Camp Mirage, a Persian Gulf base that serves as a crucial jump-off point to Afghanistan.
Paul Griffiths, chief executive officer at Dubai Airports Co., fired back Wednesday at critics in Canada and Europe, where Air France is leading a group of European and U.S. carriers to voice concerns about expansion-minded Emirates receiving low-interest aircraft financing and other subsidies.
“The only thing Dubai is guilty of is providing an environment that actually supports aviation,” Mr. Griffiths said in a statement. “Most governments around the world treat aviation as a pariah, choking its growth with costly, misdirected regulation, instead of adopting policies that recognize its considerable socio-economic benefits and support its sustainable growth. They then compound the problem with parasitic forms of taxation that usually flow straight out of the sector.”
The Air Canada Pilots Association began publicly attacking Emirates in the spring of 2009. Last March, Montreal-based Air Canada launched a series of stinging critiques against Emirates. “Few Canadians actually travel to Dubai as a destination and fewer still residents of Dubai travel to Canada,” Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu said in a recent speech in Montreal. “Simply put, it would be yet another defeat for Canada to adopt an unbalanced trade agreement with the UAE and allow for the dumping of seats into the Canadian market to siphon off profitable flying.”
Emirates’ growth strategy pits it against two Star Alliance partners, Air Canada and Germany’s Deutsche Lufthansa AG, which rely on Frankfurt as a key European hub. Dubai serves as a stopover hub for most Emirates travellers to and from Canada, so the battle is over international connecting traffic between Canada and the Middle East, Africa and the South Asian subcontinent, industry observers say.
Emirates has been pushing for up to 50 new takeoff and landing slots over the long term, but Air Canada and Transport Canada oppose the distribution of so many new flights, saying there have to be “reciprocal” benefits, and not the one-sided advantages for the UAE.
Air Canada argues that Emirates doesn’t really want to fly customers between Canada and Dubai, but instead sees the foreign carrier as aggressively seeking to skim off lucrative international traffic via the UAE.
“We want to have fair market conditions, and it’s the Canadian government’s call to judge and see if there are fair market conditions,” Lufthansa spokesman Martin Riecken said Wednesday. “If there’s a one-sided imbalance in the traffic rights situation, that is certainly not something we would support.”
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 15th Oct 2010 at 10:17. Reason: Clarity
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... " the only thing Dubai is guilty of..... " blah blah blah.....what absolute drivel , propaganda and deceit that statement is....more accurately , Dubai is guilty of providing an environment that is against human rights , free speech , tolerance , and transparent business practices. This guy has traded durhams for integrity. Why should both Canada and Germany reward this behavior by allowing further market access ? I am sure there are many governments watching this process intently , certain that they`ll be next. There must come a time when wisdom outmaneuvers greed.