BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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BA's fleet may be mainly Boeing, but lets not forget the 60+ Airbus, plus A380 on order, oh and the fact that Iberia is mostly Airbus as well. So I'm sure there will be some consolidation on the cards.
I don't understand why so many people on here who have nothing to do with this dispute think they have the right to comment.
This proposal is the business of the crew who it concerns, and no one else.
The removal of staff travel WILL be proven as illegal, so would it not be better for WW to just hand it back now before he is court ordered to.
He has done a smashing job breaking up this company, just look at the way it is now. Flight Crew and Cabin Crew barely speak, Strikers hardly speak to non strikers, ground staff vs cabin crew, waterworld vs terminal based staff, LHR vs LGW
This is all his plan, so that if another department walk out on strike other departments wont support them.
WW can settle this today if we wants, without "giving in" to BASSA. But you know what, let it carry on, one day people on here will get as bored talking about this as I am reading about it and living it every day as I am striking cabin crew (and proud of it)
I don't understand why so many people on here who have nothing to do with this dispute think they have the right to comment.
This proposal is the business of the crew who it concerns, and no one else.
The removal of staff travel WILL be proven as illegal, so would it not be better for WW to just hand it back now before he is court ordered to.
He has done a smashing job breaking up this company, just look at the way it is now. Flight Crew and Cabin Crew barely speak, Strikers hardly speak to non strikers, ground staff vs cabin crew, waterworld vs terminal based staff, LHR vs LGW
This is all his plan, so that if another department walk out on strike other departments wont support them.
WW can settle this today if we wants, without "giving in" to BASSA. But you know what, let it carry on, one day people on here will get as bored talking about this as I am reading about it and living it every day as I am striking cabin crew (and proud of it)
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The removal of staff travel WILL be proven as illegal, so would it not be better for WW to just hand it back now before he is court ordered to.
I wouldn't hold your breath, if its like all the other similar cases I look forward to the ECJ verdict in about 8 years time
Best BASSA get on with that electronic Ballot
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Channex
what you fail to recognise is that by opting for strike action this dispute now touches every employee within BA. Had cabin crew been successful in getting 100% backing for the strike call, the company would have been proverbially stuffed. Recovery ? not a snowball's chance. Cabin crew would have royally pi
ed off our customers to the extent that many would refuse to fly with us out of principle. You would have not only put 25,000 other employee's jobs at risk, you would also have endangered some 100,000 pensions, including your own. Cabin crew by going direct to the nuclear option without first trying the work to rule or even (heaven forbid) negotiation lost any sympathy that other groups pf employees might have had. If the company needs to make savings, isn't it fair that the burden is shared equally by all staff ? Why should cabin crew get preferential treatment over say checkin staff ? Both are customer facing roles.
I did fib slightly - Iberia are currently exclusively Airbus, but may take either the A380 or 747s in 2014. BA is currently spending a small fortune extending hangers in EastBase to accommodate the 777-ER. Consolidation on aircraft types ? No in fact it pays to keep both major manufacturers guessing which way IAG will jump for new fleet purchases. BA will still need to provide casualty maintenance facilities at LHR for the whole fleet - MAD is a bit far to taxi if you have a bit of a dent.
Enough. The offer is out there now. The rest of us can sit on the sidelines and offer an opinion on whether we believe the deal to be good, bad or indifferent, but the vote that counts is that of all BASSA members. The only comment I would offer is that from the sidelines it is abundantly clear that rejection will not secure a better deal. Tony Woodley will have done his utmost to get the best possible deal. I doubt that there is anyone in the BASSA camp with his degree of experience in dealing with management. So hanging on thinking that a better one is just around the corner is a fool's errand.
what you fail to recognise is that by opting for strike action this dispute now touches every employee within BA. Had cabin crew been successful in getting 100% backing for the strike call, the company would have been proverbially stuffed. Recovery ? not a snowball's chance. Cabin crew would have royally pi
ed off our customers to the extent that many would refuse to fly with us out of principle. You would have not only put 25,000 other employee's jobs at risk, you would also have endangered some 100,000 pensions, including your own. Cabin crew by going direct to the nuclear option without first trying the work to rule or even (heaven forbid) negotiation lost any sympathy that other groups pf employees might have had. If the company needs to make savings, isn't it fair that the burden is shared equally by all staff ? Why should cabin crew get preferential treatment over say checkin staff ? Both are customer facing roles. I did fib slightly - Iberia are currently exclusively Airbus, but may take either the A380 or 747s in 2014. BA is currently spending a small fortune extending hangers in EastBase to accommodate the 777-ER. Consolidation on aircraft types ? No in fact it pays to keep both major manufacturers guessing which way IAG will jump for new fleet purchases. BA will still need to provide casualty maintenance facilities at LHR for the whole fleet - MAD is a bit far to taxi if you have a bit of a dent.
Enough. The offer is out there now. The rest of us can sit on the sidelines and offer an opinion on whether we believe the deal to be good, bad or indifferent, but the vote that counts is that of all BASSA members. The only comment I would offer is that from the sidelines it is abundantly clear that rejection will not secure a better deal. Tony Woodley will have done his utmost to get the best possible deal. I doubt that there is anyone in the BASSA camp with his degree of experience in dealing with management. So hanging on thinking that a better one is just around the corner is a fool's errand.
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MissM
Fair points. What may add weight it the judgement from last weeks case, but as I have said before, this could lead to dismissal and reengagement. I do not envy your position or your choices that you may have to make soon.
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Miss M
Why do you think this will be a problem for VCC?
It's not. I can assure you.
I agree with you. All those backing BA (including those crossing the picket line but mostly our VCC who usually have this period off) should be prepared for working this Christmas in case we go on strike.
It's not. I can assure you.
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Why do you think this will be a problem for VCC?
It's not. I can assure you.
It's not. I can assure you.
Bring on the ballot and the strike. Let's see how WW, who obviously wants to settle this dispute (according to his crappy proposal...) can handle it.
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Fair points. What may add weight it the judgement from last weeks case, but as I have said before, this could lead to dismissal and reengagement. I do not envy your position or your choices that you may have to make soon.
As you say, it could lead to dismissal and re-enagement but as difficult as it may be for some to believe I am fighting for something I believe in. I am fighting for my job. I am fighting towards this vindictive and bullying management. I can keep my head high even though should I have to return m uniform to BA.
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Miss M
Be under no illusion -neither you on your "strike till we go bust" mission, nor I on my "backing BA" way hold the key to this. Your role is done now. We all know that the strikers will reject this. All 3/4000 of them. It won't be enough to carry it though.
The key to unlocking this dispute is now firmly in the hands of the circa 5000(?) BASSA members that did NOT strike.
Those are the people who voted FOR strike action last year - but then came to work. Those are the people who "Backed BA" - yet remain as financial contributors to BASSA. Those are the people who abstained from the consultative ballot last time.
What will they do now? Will they realise they have the principle role now?
They do not care about staff travel as they still have it. They may believe getting ACAS to arbitrate on the disciplinaries is fair. They may, with all the government cuts, realise that a 2 year pay rise is not to be sniffed at. They may well accept this reasonable and fair offer.
So, please Miss M spare us your self-important and martyrdom attitude. You and I, passionate though we may be on our opposite sides of the fence, play no part in this now. We have everything to play for and everything to lose, but we can but sit on the sidelines and watch what happens.
If ever there was a time for the meek and mild to stand up and be counted, this is it. We wait with baited breath.
Be under no illusion -neither you on your "strike till we go bust" mission, nor I on my "backing BA" way hold the key to this. Your role is done now. We all know that the strikers will reject this. All 3/4000 of them. It won't be enough to carry it though.
The key to unlocking this dispute is now firmly in the hands of the circa 5000(?) BASSA members that did NOT strike.
Those are the people who voted FOR strike action last year - but then came to work. Those are the people who "Backed BA" - yet remain as financial contributors to BASSA. Those are the people who abstained from the consultative ballot last time.
What will they do now? Will they realise they have the principle role now?
They do not care about staff travel as they still have it. They may believe getting ACAS to arbitrate on the disciplinaries is fair. They may, with all the government cuts, realise that a 2 year pay rise is not to be sniffed at. They may well accept this reasonable and fair offer.
So, please Miss M spare us your self-important and martyrdom attitude. You and I, passionate though we may be on our opposite sides of the fence, play no part in this now. We have everything to play for and everything to lose, but we can but sit on the sidelines and watch what happens.
If ever there was a time for the meek and mild to stand up and be counted, this is it. We wait with baited breath.
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Watersidewonker said
I would hate to be working in engineering once the little man gets his way no doubt Spanish lessons will be the way forward.
I would hate to be working in engineering once the little man gets his way no doubt Spanish lessons will be the way forward.
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I'm not cabin crew. I desperately want to see an end to this dispute but I don't think I would accept this if I had a vote.
For any deal to work there has to be mutual respect. When this offer was made BA wouldn't even let Unite reps be derostered to consider it which smacks of vindictiveness. At the same time as the proposal was being signed WW was actually attacking the union yet again in a speech.
Regardless of the details in it, that to me looks like a management that has no desire for peace whatsoever. I no longer think it's even possible and that is very saddening
For any deal to work there has to be mutual respect. When this offer was made BA wouldn't even let Unite reps be derostered to consider it which smacks of vindictiveness. At the same time as the proposal was being signed WW was actually attacking the union yet again in a speech.
Regardless of the details in it, that to me looks like a management that has no desire for peace whatsoever. I no longer think it's even possible and that is very saddening
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Miss M
I know this is going back quite a number of pages, but this does illustrate nicely the type of scaremongering information that BASSA and it's worker ants like you have fed the fires of this dispute with.
In a recent post you were crowing that those people who had accepted the individual offer were going to get a nasty surprise in two years time re the "Monthly Top Up Payment". Your claim was that the MTUP was a deal for just 2 years and after that time it would be reduced to reflect changes to the flying programme for existing fleets.
Now I knew that was balony when I read it, but I didn't have the time to spare then to find the specific info disproving it. I do now:
Bill Francis's web chat 9 July, post 36 (In answer to a question about this very subject.) Quote:
"The MTUP will be based on the flying programme for 2009/10 and will be INCREASED IN LINE WITH FUTURE BASE PAY (Eg. RPI as shown in offer letter). TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR it will NOT be based on a later schedule from now, but move with base pay increases."
Now, I don't know whether you personally are one of the ones who just quote BASSA unquestioningly without either checking the facts, or giving it any thought as to whether it makes any sense, or whether you are one of BASSA's loyal misinformation footsoldiers deliberately stiring up malcontent, but it's this type of nonsense that's driven me and people like me to resign from the union and bloody well come into work head held high and defiant.
I know this is going back quite a number of pages, but this does illustrate nicely the type of scaremongering information that BASSA and it's worker ants like you have fed the fires of this dispute with.
In a recent post you were crowing that those people who had accepted the individual offer were going to get a nasty surprise in two years time re the "Monthly Top Up Payment". Your claim was that the MTUP was a deal for just 2 years and after that time it would be reduced to reflect changes to the flying programme for existing fleets.
Now I knew that was balony when I read it, but I didn't have the time to spare then to find the specific info disproving it. I do now:
Bill Francis's web chat 9 July, post 36 (In answer to a question about this very subject.) Quote:
"The MTUP will be based on the flying programme for 2009/10 and will be INCREASED IN LINE WITH FUTURE BASE PAY (Eg. RPI as shown in offer letter). TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR it will NOT be based on a later schedule from now, but move with base pay increases."
Now, I don't know whether you personally are one of the ones who just quote BASSA unquestioningly without either checking the facts, or giving it any thought as to whether it makes any sense, or whether you are one of BASSA's loyal misinformation footsoldiers deliberately stiring up malcontent, but it's this type of nonsense that's driven me and people like me to resign from the union and bloody well come into work head held high and defiant.
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No strike clause
Miss M
How I read the offer was that ,were you to go on strike ,then you would not be eligible for the top up pay for that year.As you would not have operated all your rostered trips you could not then claim to be out of pocket for the difference.
You can still strike but it will cost you financially.That is much the same as now.If you went on strike you lost the trip pay,MBT pay and basic pay until your next rostered trip.
I admit that the financial penalties are harsher with this new offer but you would still be able to strike.
How I read the offer was that ,were you to go on strike ,then you would not be eligible for the top up pay for that year.As you would not have operated all your rostered trips you could not then claim to be out of pocket for the difference.
You can still strike but it will cost you financially.That is much the same as now.If you went on strike you lost the trip pay,MBT pay and basic pay until your next rostered trip.
I admit that the financial penalties are harsher with this new offer but you would still be able to strike.
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Beagle9
I think you've hit the nail on the head....like you the reason many of us chose to turn our backs on the union and come into work is because we bothered to read ALL the FACTS. Not the nonsense that the union and it's supporters spout, their facts do not stack up and are totally fabricated "we are going to lose this much pay....", "we'll all be on £2.40 and hour..." etc. Lets hope that the silent majority still in the union realise truth from fiction when they cast their vote!
MissM, Watersidewonker
Regarding the VCC's working over xmas, I'm not entirely sure why you think this will be a problem? Most VCC's opted to 'back BA' for a very good reason and that reason is still very real regardless of the time of year. I can only speak for myself but the two VCC friends I spoke to last night are very interested in the 'family duty ticket' option. They were not aware that they will be able to take family/friends away with them. Now they are quite excited at the prospect should it come to it.
Oh yes, and if it does come to it and the BASSA supporters do not come to their senses, I for one will look forward to working with like minded people in a lovely atmosphere like we did during the strike. A bit of festive spirit for once!
I think you've hit the nail on the head....like you the reason many of us chose to turn our backs on the union and come into work is because we bothered to read ALL the FACTS. Not the nonsense that the union and it's supporters spout, their facts do not stack up and are totally fabricated "we are going to lose this much pay....", "we'll all be on £2.40 and hour..." etc. Lets hope that the silent majority still in the union realise truth from fiction when they cast their vote!
MissM, Watersidewonker
Regarding the VCC's working over xmas, I'm not entirely sure why you think this will be a problem? Most VCC's opted to 'back BA' for a very good reason and that reason is still very real regardless of the time of year. I can only speak for myself but the two VCC friends I spoke to last night are very interested in the 'family duty ticket' option. They were not aware that they will be able to take family/friends away with them. Now they are quite excited at the prospect should it come to it.
Oh yes, and if it does come to it and the BASSA supporters do not come to their senses, I for one will look forward to working with like minded people in a lovely atmosphere like we did during the strike. A bit of festive spirit for once!
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HiFlyer14
We all know that the strikers will reject this. All 3/4000 of them.
If it's the 5000 or near enough that Walsh said and the BASSA membership is down to 9,500 then the strikers are still in the majority
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Right Engine
There are 15,000 crew in BA.
Firstly there are not 15,000 crew - secondly what has that got to do with anything?
There are around 9,500 BASSA members who will vote on whether to accept this proposal - of the 9,550 a number between 5/7000 went on strike - therefore the majority of BASSA members are strikers so they are in the majority
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upperdeckpsr
A little wake-up call for you;
I overheard 3 strikers talking the other day...... and they weren't being discreet at all with their yellow pens highly visible..... agreeing with each other that enough is enough. They just want it over now, and were ready for any half-decent offer. One of them said that all she wanted was her staff travel back, in whatever form.
Well, surprise! It's on the table, wrapped up in a package containing a lot of amazing goodies. I think that you can subtract at least 3 militant votes from whatever support you think you have.
You and your remaining comrades really do need to wake of and 'smell the coffee'.
This is the last offer you will get from Willie Walsh, as he has used the carrot which is staff travel. Reject this, and he'll get nasty.
I overheard 3 strikers talking the other day...... and they weren't being discreet at all with their yellow pens highly visible..... agreeing with each other that enough is enough. They just want it over now, and were ready for any half-decent offer. One of them said that all she wanted was her staff travel back, in whatever form.
Well, surprise! It's on the table, wrapped up in a package containing a lot of amazing goodies. I think that you can subtract at least 3 militant votes from whatever support you think you have.
You and your remaining comrades really do need to wake of and 'smell the coffee'.
This is the last offer you will get from Willie Walsh, as he has used the carrot which is staff travel. Reject this, and he'll get nasty.
Last edited by 123breath; 21st Oct 2010 at 09:34.
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To all Bassa members.
This is a plea from a fellow crew member.
PLEASE PLEASE read the offer for yourself and realise how fair it is now and was back in the summer when it was first offered.
We have not had to give up anything except the long range diversion of two nights, which many crew did not like anyway.
On long haul you keep the long range agreement, double nights off, MBTs triggered, overtime etc. etc.
On Eurofleet we keep the Cat turnarounds, 18 hours rest on request after 12.30 day and finish times on last day etc.
All these things might have been changed but have not. What you have got is a guarantee that you will get a top up if you don't achieve 'the average' in variable allowances. Basically it is and always was a great offer.
PLEASE PLEASE look at the big picture and realise that Staff Travel cannot be fully returned now because it would make Willie Walsh look like an idiot but will be in the future.
Please vote to accept this for all our sakes because if you cause BA to loose more money he will just come back with a worse offer!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a plea from a fellow crew member.
PLEASE PLEASE read the offer for yourself and realise how fair it is now and was back in the summer when it was first offered.
We have not had to give up anything except the long range diversion of two nights, which many crew did not like anyway.
On long haul you keep the long range agreement, double nights off, MBTs triggered, overtime etc. etc.
On Eurofleet we keep the Cat turnarounds, 18 hours rest on request after 12.30 day and finish times on last day etc.
All these things might have been changed but have not. What you have got is a guarantee that you will get a top up if you don't achieve 'the average' in variable allowances. Basically it is and always was a great offer.
PLEASE PLEASE look at the big picture and realise that Staff Travel cannot be fully returned now because it would make Willie Walsh look like an idiot but will be in the future.
Please vote to accept this for all our sakes because if you cause BA to loose more money he will just come back with a worse offer!!!!!!!!!!!
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I don't understand why so many people on here who have nothing to do with this dispute think they have the right to comment.
This proposal is the business of the crew who it concerns, and no one else.
This proposal is the business of the crew who it concerns, and no one else.
How can they believe that their action and lack of actions affect no-one other than themselves?
Making this airline work and getting it back to profitability is the concerns of many such as board members, share holders, the travelling public, BA pensioners, support services (who will lose their job if BA folds) such as catering, cleaning, BAA employees, the list can go on and on.
Surely then those other BA employees, whether they are Pilots, Engineers, Ground Staff, Managers (yes, they are people with families and financial commitments too) who have already given so much have a BIG SAY in this dispute and are desperate that it is resolved as soon as possible.
