BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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CCCP
You are right that it is not clear whether there is a big desire for a new union, but some want one.
I wish all crew were in Unite and voted. That would give the clearest picture of where the dispute was today.
I wish all crew were in Unite and voted. That would give the clearest picture of where the dispute was today.
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The PCCC made a fair bit of noise initially, and then went rather quiet for a while. No doubt BASSA/Unite thought that was that but they were quietly working towards certification, to our collective surprise I think.
It must have been rather a shock for some in BASSA/Unite, hence the flurry of posts attempting to cast doubt I guess.
It must have been rather a shock for some in BASSA/Unite, hence the flurry of posts attempting to cast doubt I guess.
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crew would be far better off simply investing in Crew Defense for the legal cover
waste of space if you ask me
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Clearly it is a quasi union set up under the auspices of BA.
BASSA have always crowed that BA is involved and so thats what the minority want to believe. They can't bear the thought of beloved BASSA actually being wrong and being replaced by a more progressive, engaging group of represenatives.
In time, our Ts and Cs WILL change. FACT. Crew need a union who recognise this, and work WITH BA to find mutually accetable ways of working. Ways that benefit the individual and the company.
Who is to say that the PCCC is sufficiently independant to protect current MF crew from an further erosion of the their contracts?
But no, they'd rather shaft MF crew to maintain their own T and Cs and pay then have the audacity to try and defend them and show support.
The MF contract is tough already. I see no furthur erosion to this contract!!
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CCCP
As members of the PCCC would never strike,
A huge sweeping generalisation, but, seeing as you stated it Whats the point of striking?...'history has shown' previous strikes (by you know who) have proved worthless and have gained nada!!
Engaging, negotiating and an understanding of 'the bigger picture' will deliver results. With no lies, loss of pay,friends and stress.
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CCCP
Clearly it is a quasi union set up under the auspices of BA. If there is no joining fee or subs, who is paying the bills?
As for crew defence, same question. Where are the accounts, who holds them, do any of the crew who have contributed know the financial state of play today. I said the same to a crew member who had donated £100 to CD. He couldn't answer any of those questions, but told he knew the 2 crew involved were 'good' guys even though he didn't know them personally. Told him he might as well give £100 to a stranger in the street. Unbelievable.
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Who is paying the bills at the PCCC. Who paid the £150 registration fee?
What are the names of the crew who are proposing to put themselves forward as reps, Secretary, Chairman.
Come on. Answers please.
What are the names of the crew who are proposing to put themselves forward as reps, Secretary, Chairman.
Come on. Answers please.
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Chigley. It is no good trying to manipulate the truth.
BASSA were never going to negotiate any deal for the MF becuase they were and are, against the setting up of a entirely new fleet on new terms and conditions.
BA could have started new applicants on lower salaries with those crew assimilated amongst the existing crew, as what happened post 1997.
Quite simply, a non unionised MF workforce is all part of BA's union busting strategy. For all the good that the PCCC would do for any MF crewmember, the reality is that the joining the Girl Guides or Boy Scouts, would be a better use of meagre MF crew wages, than paying subs to the PCCC.
BASSA were never going to negotiate any deal for the MF becuase they were and are, against the setting up of a entirely new fleet on new terms and conditions.
BA could have started new applicants on lower salaries with those crew assimilated amongst the existing crew, as what happened post 1997.
Quite simply, a non unionised MF workforce is all part of BA's union busting strategy. For all the good that the PCCC would do for any MF crewmember, the reality is that the joining the Girl Guides or Boy Scouts, would be a better use of meagre MF crew wages, than paying subs to the PCCC.
Better to ask BASSA where the huge sums of money paid into the Branch fund over the years has been spent.
Branch Secretaries on huge amounts of commission, not even bothering to fly for BA as the allowances would be pocket money.
I am not a member of PCCC but am sure when they are sufficiently able they will reveal their names and their structure.
Isnt it terrible this democracy thing people choosing an alternative to the God like BASSA tut tut tut
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For a long time now I have considered a Union (particularly one the size of Unite) as being a business. Litebulbs recently converted me into describing them as a Service Provider.
Now here we find ourselves with effectively two service providers competing for members, or shall we call them customers. All the usual tactics of business are being deployed from advertising one’s own brand to suggesting that of your rival is inferior.
For BASSA/Unite I suggest that they start to think more effectively along those lines. Each customer lost to a rival makes them weaker and the rival of course stronger in equal measure. There is nothing stopping BASA/Unite touting for business amongst MF employees also of course, they just need to make their brand / services attractive to them.
My partner has switched brands and whilst any benefit from doing so, at this early stage, is difficult to perceive she certainly doesn’t think that there is anything whatsoever to lose from taking her custom elsewhere, BASSA/Unite had moved so far from her position and were making it very clear that they didn’t want her as a customer anymore after all.
So Union’s - Welcome to the world of commerce.
First lesson – “Don’t alienate your customers”
Now here we find ourselves with effectively two service providers competing for members, or shall we call them customers. All the usual tactics of business are being deployed from advertising one’s own brand to suggesting that of your rival is inferior.
For BASSA/Unite I suggest that they start to think more effectively along those lines. Each customer lost to a rival makes them weaker and the rival of course stronger in equal measure. There is nothing stopping BASA/Unite touting for business amongst MF employees also of course, they just need to make their brand / services attractive to them.
My partner has switched brands and whilst any benefit from doing so, at this early stage, is difficult to perceive she certainly doesn’t think that there is anything whatsoever to lose from taking her custom elsewhere, BASSA/Unite had moved so far from her position and were making it very clear that they didn’t want her as a customer anymore after all.
So Union’s - Welcome to the world of commerce.
First lesson – “Don’t alienate your customers”
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BASSA were never going to negotiate any deal for the MF
Perhaps BASSA should have accepted that this was going to be a reality and actually negotiated either better Ts and Cs for MF, or (as you suggest CCCP) designed an integrated system that was going to give BA the planned savings (long term) and that was an acceptable balance for current crew . BA put forward an integrated option (which I believe could have been tweaked through discussion and negotiation) but it meant giving up some of our current agreements.
So whilst BASSA were up in arms about the smoke screen of imposition, BA's baby has sailed right on in, just how they want it.
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I want to know who is backing the PCCC?
Who has paid for the website?
Who stumped up the £150 to register it as trades union?
As I have stated, the PCCC has been set up under the "auspices" of British Airways, but BALPA's fingerprints are all over it.
Who has paid for the website?
Who stumped up the £150 to register it as trades union?
As I have stated, the PCCC has been set up under the "auspices" of British Airways, but BALPA's fingerprints are all over it.
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Studied Business Psychology
BASSA never wanted New Fleet which, on the whole, is understandable. However BASSA never wanted change, never wanted their gravy train to be de-railed and never wanted serious negotiation with a company that they have always held in contempt. BASSA had the opportunity to influence the inception of NF or even the shelving of the fleet if certain cost reducing effieciencies were met. They refused.
Ask your branch leaders why they are so against the PCCC? Why does another Union threaten BASSA so much if it is of so little substance? Why have BASSA and Unite embarked on yet another slander campaign trying to convince everyone that the PCCC are management 'puppets' when they are supposed to be so insubstantial?
The truth is that BASSA fear the PCCC as it could, possibly, in the future give an alternative to the lumbering, 1970's Unionistic dinosaur that is BASSA and put an end to the bluster, rhetoric and vitriol that are the BASSA communications.
Some good has come from this past two years. The realisation that BASSA are inept, outdated and inconsequential. This has led to the formation of a group which has a totally different mind set to that one at BASSA, a willingness to put aside the 'no no no' mantra and engage in negotiation. (the you-tube video is still there if you want to watch the 'no negotiation' chanted agreement again). Perhaps they have a hard struggle ahead, perhaps the company will be willing to finally engage with a Union that has an adult approach to negotiation. Time will tell. At least there are those with the courage to stand up to the BASSA bluster and bullying and try and represent their members in a fair manner encompassing the whole spectrum of members from the new joiner to the CSD instead of protecting the top of the tree only.
The rest of the company now want to see an end to this. Union busting has only ever existed in the fevered minds of the BASSA faithful. The company could have exterminated BASSA last year or the year before, but they don't want to. BASSA have eradicated their own power and position by thoughtless acts, thoughtless communication and bullying, slanderous tactics.
Time to say goodnight BASSA.
As I have stated, the PCCC has been set up under the "auspices" of British Airways, but BALPA's fingerprints are all over it.
How much did it take the BASSA IT expert to set up his 'mucky' websites? Can no one in BASSA afford to pay out £150? Nope, costs too much to service the BMW M3's and the Audi TT's!
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As I have stated, the PCCC has been set up under the "auspices" of British Airways, but BALPA's fingerprints are all over it.
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Yahoo, he we go again. I really need to unerstand this fixation with pilots as currently I simply dont get it.
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So here is Weeblestrim wading and lowering the tone of the debate, by dragging in his personal jealousies over what cars a few cabin crew happen to drive.
You must leave such bias and vitriol out of a public debate such as this Wibble. You are letting your side down.
BASSA does not want Mixed Fleet anymore than BALPA would welcome a BA version of JetStar. You see there is an overwhelming stench of hypocrisy when BA pilots work as auxillary crew to try and break a cabin crew strike, yet would walk out tomorrow if BA imposed a JetStar operation in BA.
BASSA only survives because it has the support of its membership, as illustrated in the last ballot. That is what is called democracy Wibbly. There is nothing democratic about the PCCC. Autocratic yes, as no one has been voted onto its platform of leadership. It is still a virtual union. A mirage of quasiness.
But who stumped up the £150 to register it as a trades union?
What are the names of the cabin crew who are going to be its representatives?
What is BALPA's involvement in the PCCC?
Why all the secrecy?
You must leave such bias and vitriol out of a public debate such as this Wibble. You are letting your side down.
BASSA does not want Mixed Fleet anymore than BALPA would welcome a BA version of JetStar. You see there is an overwhelming stench of hypocrisy when BA pilots work as auxillary crew to try and break a cabin crew strike, yet would walk out tomorrow if BA imposed a JetStar operation in BA.
BASSA only survives because it has the support of its membership, as illustrated in the last ballot. That is what is called democracy Wibbly. There is nothing democratic about the PCCC. Autocratic yes, as no one has been voted onto its platform of leadership. It is still a virtual union. A mirage of quasiness.
But who stumped up the £150 to register it as a trades union?
What are the names of the cabin crew who are going to be its representatives?
What is BALPA's involvement in the PCCC?
Why all the secrecy?
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Good to have you here CCCP
Hi CCCP.
I disagree with your points of view so far, but it is good to have you here to debate our opinions.
You stated (sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing):
"BASSA were never going to negotiate any deal for the MF becuase they were and are, against the setting up of a entirely new fleet on new terms and conditions."
However, their offer to BA on the 10th March 2010 states:
There will be a new separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and sole bargaining rights for Unite.
So I believe you should retract your statement. But there is more: BASSA wanted the crew member put back on board, but BA had given out part time and VR, so there were not enough crew for that - they would have to recruit loads more crew. BASSA's solution was to put these crew into New Fleet, accelerating its growth tremendously (in appendix 1 of the same offer):
Unite accept that by BA removing impositions and recruiting, this will facilitate the launch of New Fleet. Equating to initially 700 heads and by increasing productivity
So, in their own words, BASSA's last offer to BA before the strikes would "facilitate the launch of New Fleet".
Personally, I was worried about the set up of New Fleet. I was happy to work harder on board, but I didn't want New Fleet set up in case my favourite routes went to them; this was one reason I left BASSA - any strike by crew would be striking in favour of BASSA's way of saving money.
Therefore: The strike was an attempt by BASSA to facilitate the launch of New Fleet with an immediate 700 new recruits - just to get that person back on board on existing fleets.
I would appreciate your (or anybody else's) thoughts on this.
M
I disagree with your points of view so far, but it is good to have you here to debate our opinions.
You stated (sorry I don't know how to do the quote thing):
"BASSA were never going to negotiate any deal for the MF becuase they were and are, against the setting up of a entirely new fleet on new terms and conditions."
However, their offer to BA on the 10th March 2010 states:
There will be a new separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and sole bargaining rights for Unite.
So I believe you should retract your statement. But there is more: BASSA wanted the crew member put back on board, but BA had given out part time and VR, so there were not enough crew for that - they would have to recruit loads more crew. BASSA's solution was to put these crew into New Fleet, accelerating its growth tremendously (in appendix 1 of the same offer):
Unite accept that by BA removing impositions and recruiting, this will facilitate the launch of New Fleet. Equating to initially 700 heads and by increasing productivity
So, in their own words, BASSA's last offer to BA before the strikes would "facilitate the launch of New Fleet".
Personally, I was worried about the set up of New Fleet. I was happy to work harder on board, but I didn't want New Fleet set up in case my favourite routes went to them; this was one reason I left BASSA - any strike by crew would be striking in favour of BASSA's way of saving money.
Therefore: The strike was an attempt by BASSA to facilitate the launch of New Fleet with an immediate 700 new recruits - just to get that person back on board on existing fleets.
I would appreciate your (or anybody else's) thoughts on this.
M
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This thread is not about BALPA - It may suit some interested parties to dry and deflect the argument that way, but that's just smoke and mirrors and not what we are about here. From this point onwards, references to BALPA will result in posts being deleted.
Please also remember that the use of the word S**b will result in immediate post deletion, whatever the context may be.
Please also remember that the use of the word S**b will result in immediate post deletion, whatever the context may be.
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AS someone observing this never ending saga from a distant planet I am more that ever suspicious that Bassa and BA are in it together, conspiracy theory at its best.
An incredibly confused and dysfunctional union playing a very predictable dead wish game and a BA reluctant to press the nuclear button.
An incredibly confused and dysfunctional union playing a very predictable dead wish game and a BA reluctant to press the nuclear button.