BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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BA cabin crew feel that shopping on a layover, particularly in North America, is so much more important than planning their rest properly during that layover.
Bettygirl - I have had more time to look at the proposals on the EASA site and the actual changes proposed are not hugely significant to BA CC, in fact bring the FC into line with what we already work to. The sliding scale for calculating max duty periods is still below our industrial limits although is tricky to read. The omissions though I can see are a problem so worst case scenario, we could find ourselves doing one more early start in a working block unless global alleviation is used then it could be two. There are a couple of areas where EASA propose to consult more so they could change.
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EASA
Hi BG,
I hope you're right about the EASA EuroFTL proposals - and think you probably are to some extent.
It may not be an instant change.
Perhaps you won't wake up the morning after the legislation is passed to find that you're actually reporting to LGW today, at 0430, to fly 6 sectors, finishing at LHR 14hrs later....(even though your car's at LGW!).
The trend will inevitably be towards the limit though, wherever that limit is finally set, as airlines struggle to remain profitable against a background of increasing taxes & fuel prices. Sadly in this industry we're always just one 9/11 or oil crisis away from staring bankruptcy in the face
Just as Mixed Fleet will be a constant thorn in BASSA's side during every future pay negotiation, these EASA proposals will reduce our negotiators ability to preserve our current conditions.
My view is that I'd rather expend some energy now to influence the limits, rather than expend energy later to avoid being rostered to them!
It may be that we cannot influence change - but if we say & do nothing then the airlines that are pushing this legislation through (and why would they bother if they don't intend to use it?) will be able to say "look, our crews don't care!".
Can I suggest a visit to FTL Campaign Site • BALPA FTL Campaign Home , there's some interesting graphs & information on there.
ATB
BG - You have a PM.
I hope you're right about the EASA EuroFTL proposals - and think you probably are to some extent.
It may not be an instant change.
Perhaps you won't wake up the morning after the legislation is passed to find that you're actually reporting to LGW today, at 0430, to fly 6 sectors, finishing at LHR 14hrs later....(even though your car's at LGW!).
The trend will inevitably be towards the limit though, wherever that limit is finally set, as airlines struggle to remain profitable against a background of increasing taxes & fuel prices. Sadly in this industry we're always just one 9/11 or oil crisis away from staring bankruptcy in the face
Just as Mixed Fleet will be a constant thorn in BASSA's side during every future pay negotiation, these EASA proposals will reduce our negotiators ability to preserve our current conditions.
My view is that I'd rather expend some energy now to influence the limits, rather than expend energy later to avoid being rostered to them!
It may be that we cannot influence change - but if we say & do nothing then the airlines that are pushing this legislation through (and why would they bother if they don't intend to use it?) will be able to say "look, our crews don't care!".
Can I suggest a visit to FTL Campaign Site • BALPA FTL Campaign Home , there's some interesting graphs & information on there.
ATB
BG - You have a PM.
Last edited by dave747436; 12th Mar 2011 at 14:43.
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Ottergirl,
I think the break of 30 mins to eat after a 6 hour duty is a good addition and will be a good safe guard for our Mixed Fleet colleagues who don't have an agreement like ours, which does roster in a 30 min extra turnaround in duties over 8 hours or of course 30 mins extra clear time if that's not achieved. So it is good for them.
I think the break of 30 mins to eat after a 6 hour duty is a good addition and will be a good safe guard for our Mixed Fleet colleagues who don't have an agreement like ours, which does roster in a 30 min extra turnaround in duties over 8 hours or of course 30 mins extra clear time if that's not achieved. So it is good for them.
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The new limits may be within or the same as CC industrial agreements but at the moment scheme (CAP371 effectively) prevents you mostly from being worked to your industrial limits. It is a given that with EASA coming in BA's scheme will be changed to reflect the new EASA limits - they are after all effectively what will be the law. So the problem is that you will be being worked to the most limiting of the two rule sets, this has been scheme in many cases but will become industrial.
Another one for you is the use of discretion - the company will be able to, in certain circumstances plan it. That is fine again as often CC industrial limits are less limiting. Not so for the FD crew. They may well stop working to scheme - which they mostly do when things start to go awry - and start to become a little more rigid in their application of BLRs, which is their industrial limit. So something happens and the day is extended and the FD crew walk off the aircraft, in the meantime the CC end up working to their industrial limit which I believe is 16 hours off schedule (Please correct me if I have that wrong)
Either way I do not think that BA CC will continue on as if nothing has changed. There is a innocence in that line of argument I find it hard to understand.
Another one for you is the use of discretion - the company will be able to, in certain circumstances plan it. That is fine again as often CC industrial limits are less limiting. Not so for the FD crew. They may well stop working to scheme - which they mostly do when things start to go awry - and start to become a little more rigid in their application of BLRs, which is their industrial limit. So something happens and the day is extended and the FD crew walk off the aircraft, in the meantime the CC end up working to their industrial limit which I believe is 16 hours off schedule (Please correct me if I have that wrong)
Either way I do not think that BA CC will continue on as if nothing has changed. There is a innocence in that line of argument I find it hard to understand.
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Well it's 14 out of base (unless it's a long range flight with bunk rest). It's 15 if down route but it is only 12.30 for rostering purposes, (unless long range) or less if cap371 is more restricting.
It's nice that you are so concerned but even EASA is more restricting on a lot of occasions and at least flight crew and cabin crew will go out of hours together unlike with Cap371.
Our agreements are just safeguards, we work to BA scheme (cap371) when that is more restricting and the same would apply with EASA so we will go out of hours together or before you!!.
I have gone back and yet again read the proposed document and it is still the Captain that has to extend a duty. Have you actually read it?
These are my own views and not those of BA.
It's nice that you are so concerned but even EASA is more restricting on a lot of occasions and at least flight crew and cabin crew will go out of hours together unlike with Cap371.
Our agreements are just safeguards, we work to BA scheme (cap371) when that is more restricting and the same would apply with EASA so we will go out of hours together or before you!!.
I have gone back and yet again read the proposed document and it is still the Captain that has to extend a duty. Have you actually read it?
These are my own views and not those of BA.
Last edited by Betty girl; 12th Mar 2011 at 17:48.
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Back to BASSA....
Can we get back to the immediate industrial situation now please?
I've just got back from hols and surprise surprise no BASSA account info. They have failed in providing the information mandated by the Certification Officer so I'm putting in an official complaint on Monday. They'll soon learn who I am so I expect a barrage of abuse before the end of the week. Animals.
I have also heard from my source at Watford tribunal that Mr Holley has lost his ET. He is due to receive a letter next week but he has been told verbally. Is this on the BASSA forum yet? If not why not?
There doesn't seem to be anything on the internet about it except here. Comments after the article are HILARIOUS.
I've just got back from hols and surprise surprise no BASSA account info. They have failed in providing the information mandated by the Certification Officer so I'm putting in an official complaint on Monday. They'll soon learn who I am so I expect a barrage of abuse before the end of the week. Animals.
I have also heard from my source at Watford tribunal that Mr Holley has lost his ET. He is due to receive a letter next week but he has been told verbally. Is this on the BASSA forum yet? If not why not?
There doesn't seem to be anything on the internet about it except here. Comments after the article are HILARIOUS.
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It seems to be a presumtion that all european airlines will work to the EASA proposals, except BA, who will in time be forced to change - in order to remain competitive - and fall into line.
I cannot see pilots and cabin crew from every other european airline letting the message slip to their respective bossess, 'not a problem, go ahead.'
Air France, Alitalia or Iberia. All nice moderate crew willing to oblige!!!
I cannot see pilots and cabin crew from every other european airline letting the message slip to their respective bossess, 'not a problem, go ahead.'
Air France, Alitalia or Iberia. All nice moderate crew willing to oblige!!!
Couldonlyaffordafiver
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Air France, Alitalia or Iberia. All nice moderate crew willing to oblige!!!
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BASSAwitch
Can we get back to the immediate industrial situation now please?
I've just got back from hols and surprise surprise no BASSA account info. They have failed in providing the information mandated by the Certification Officer so I'm putting in an official complaint on Monday. They'll soon learn who I am so I expect a barrage of abuse before the end of the week. Animals.
I have also heard from my source at Watford tribunal that Mr Holley has lost his ET. He is due to receive a letter next week but he has been told verbally. Is this on the BASSA forum yet? If not why not?
There doesn't seem to be anything on the internet about it except here. Comments after the article are HILARIOUS
I've just got back from hols and surprise surprise no BASSA account info. They have failed in providing the information mandated by the Certification Officer so I'm putting in an official complaint on Monday. They'll soon learn who I am so I expect a barrage of abuse before the end of the week. Animals.
I have also heard from my source at Watford tribunal that Mr Holley has lost his ET. He is due to receive a letter next week but he has been told verbally. Is this on the BASSA forum yet? If not why not?
There doesn't seem to be anything on the internet about it except here. Comments after the article are HILARIOUS
Yes comments in the ES were very funny. Must say that some of the info I read even surprises me. Love the bit on his extention to his house
Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 13th Mar 2011 at 19:22.
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A pleasure, genuinely. I can't help but think that we do someone a disservice if we cast aspersions on their personalities, especially when all we know of those people is what we read on the internet, let alone ascribing someone a characteristic by dint of their chosen career. Equally, I can't help but think that had both sides in this dispute engaged in polite, reasoned debate, that we wouldn't be in quite the unpleasant bind we are in.
Right, off to open some red and settle down to watch the rugby. Some things transcend the industrial landscape.....
MrB
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BA confirmed (on 11/03/11 on the BA intranet) that KW and LM met and talked on 10/03/11.
Oddly though, neither the cc89 website (uniteba.com) or the Unite website (unitetheunion.com) makes any mention of this. I can't access the bassa website, but suspect that silence is also being maintained there as well?
Why would they keep so quiet about this I wonder? After all, they've been calling for BA to talk to them for ages.
Oddly though, neither the cc89 website (uniteba.com) or the Unite website (unitetheunion.com) makes any mention of this. I can't access the bassa website, but suspect that silence is also being maintained there as well?
Why would they keep so quiet about this I wonder? After all, they've been calling for BA to talk to them for ages.
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True! Which is why it is so difficult to understand why so many BA cabin crew feel that shopping on a layover, particularly in North America, is so much more important than planning their rest properly during that layover. The resulting moans about tiredness et al on the return journey just don't cut the mustard, do they?
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Maxi
I will. BALPA has a membership in BA of approximately 98%.
95% of a 70% turnout is approximately 67% of total community , not like your numerically challenged colleague seems to think.
Actually on a non industrial issue a 70% turnout is very good, especially as it deliveres 4.3% and another share plan.
Oh how I wish I was in BASSA.
I will. BALPA has a membership in BA of approximately 98%.
95% of a 70% turnout is approximately 67% of total community , not like your numerically challenged colleague seems to think.
Actually on a non industrial issue a 70% turnout is very good, especially as it deliveres 4.3% and another share plan.
Oh how I wish I was in BASSA.
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Have you seen the latest press release from Unite re pregnant women at BA.
BA shamefully stops pay of pregnant cabin crew
What rules do BA require CC to follow with respect to living distance from work? I realize some CC have been redeployed from regional bases as they have closed but what are the rules for those recruited to London bases? Pregnant women though are not disabled. Most pregnant women continue to work well into the 7th or 8th month of the pregnancy. Do BA CC expect to have the entire time off while pregnant as well as 9 months after?
regards
BA shamefully stops pay of pregnant cabin crew
What rules do BA require CC to follow with respect to living distance from work? I realize some CC have been redeployed from regional bases as they have closed but what are the rules for those recruited to London bases? Pregnant women though are not disabled. Most pregnant women continue to work well into the 7th or 8th month of the pregnancy. Do BA CC expect to have the entire time off while pregnant as well as 9 months after?
regards
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It seems Unite may be hoist by their own petard!
Weren't they trying to say cabin crew were on poverty wages recently?
The majority of BA’s cabin crew are women and will receive around £25,000 per year, including flying expenses.
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Yup. The most recent rant:
The “old boys club”.
Sexism and gender bias, bordering on the misogynistic, is alive and well in Waterside.
The cabin crew dispute has proven many things, one of which is that male dominated cronyism still flourishes behind Waterside’s gleaming fa�ade. Beneath a thin veneer of spin, platitudes and trite PC sound bites, lurks a far darker truth.
A predominantly female workforce had the audacity to stand up for themselves and have an opinion and one that the last bastions of male dominance didn’t like.
These people stood up for themselves, for their rights, to protect the families they had, or the ones that they planned to have in the future. They dared to say that “we deserve better than this; we are worth more” and this simple defiance appeared to offend the Waterside establishment.
It appeared that many of our mainly male pilot colleagues could not accept this: adopting a “upstart trolley dollies should be seen and not heard” approach. Women and mothers attempting to interfere with their destiny, having a say in their own lives was apparently an unthinkable heresy!
BALPA and PPRUNE websites were, and still are, full of veiled and often overt, bigoted indignation. Not only that, but a significant number of all the disciplinary action taken against crew had one common element, either as witness, victim or instigator -
A specific male BALPA rep.
To be fair many pilots have expressed disgust and disappointment over BALPA’s stance towards the cabin crew dispute, so much for kind words, they have failed to back these words with their actions, the same individual has recently been elected once again by the same pilot community to continue to represent them.
Many pilots went against all the fundamental principles of trade unionism, setting up a volunteer system and an alternate union, in the PCCC, to undermine any stance or action that crew could take. This unhealthy obsession with our dispute led some members of flight deck to go so far as to attend the numerous court cases surrounding our dispute, openly congratulating the BA legal team if they won.
Strong women were not only mocked but also pilloried on flight deck forums, branded dismissively as ‘militants’, none more so than your chairwoman, Lizanne Malone. Our supposed ‘colleagues’ were so concerned at this apparent threat to world order, that not only did they not support the cabin crew, they could not even bring themselves to remain neutral, many of them fell over themselves to “back BA” or to involve a salivating Asset Protection department, in trivial imagined slights.
The union representative for the vast majority of dispute related cases was a woman, representing predominantly female crew. The rep in question was Nicky Marcus, a polite, intelligent and articulate woman. She was sacked for being a good rep. Managers alleged that she was somehow threatening and intimidating towards the head of Asset Protection. A man who had spent a long career in the Metropolitan Police, coming into contact with hardened drug dealers, murderers and violent offenders prior to joining British Airways. Obviously this had not prepared him for his exposure to the ‘intimidating’ Nicky Marcus.
It would appear that cabin crew, and by de facto, predominantly women, had to be kept in their place at any cost.
BALPA’s crass intervention in our dispute was essentially a case of people whose earnings can be well in excess of £100k per year with pensions to match, telling colleagues that could earn less than a tenth of that, with a poverty line pension, not only actively telling people they should bow down and accept it but also willingly assisting an employer be able to introduce this gross distortion.
It wasn’t that long ago they wanted our help in helping to protect them from the threat of cheap pilots being used through open skies, how ironic are their current actions when we face the same threat. Next time they ask the answer will be a polite but firm
Fox Trot Oscar.
The “old boys club”.
Sexism and gender bias, bordering on the misogynistic, is alive and well in Waterside.
The cabin crew dispute has proven many things, one of which is that male dominated cronyism still flourishes behind Waterside’s gleaming fa�ade. Beneath a thin veneer of spin, platitudes and trite PC sound bites, lurks a far darker truth.
A predominantly female workforce had the audacity to stand up for themselves and have an opinion and one that the last bastions of male dominance didn’t like.
These people stood up for themselves, for their rights, to protect the families they had, or the ones that they planned to have in the future. They dared to say that “we deserve better than this; we are worth more” and this simple defiance appeared to offend the Waterside establishment.
It appeared that many of our mainly male pilot colleagues could not accept this: adopting a “upstart trolley dollies should be seen and not heard” approach. Women and mothers attempting to interfere with their destiny, having a say in their own lives was apparently an unthinkable heresy!
BALPA and PPRUNE websites were, and still are, full of veiled and often overt, bigoted indignation. Not only that, but a significant number of all the disciplinary action taken against crew had one common element, either as witness, victim or instigator -
A specific male BALPA rep.
To be fair many pilots have expressed disgust and disappointment over BALPA’s stance towards the cabin crew dispute, so much for kind words, they have failed to back these words with their actions, the same individual has recently been elected once again by the same pilot community to continue to represent them.
Many pilots went against all the fundamental principles of trade unionism, setting up a volunteer system and an alternate union, in the PCCC, to undermine any stance or action that crew could take. This unhealthy obsession with our dispute led some members of flight deck to go so far as to attend the numerous court cases surrounding our dispute, openly congratulating the BA legal team if they won.
Strong women were not only mocked but also pilloried on flight deck forums, branded dismissively as ‘militants’, none more so than your chairwoman, Lizanne Malone. Our supposed ‘colleagues’ were so concerned at this apparent threat to world order, that not only did they not support the cabin crew, they could not even bring themselves to remain neutral, many of them fell over themselves to “back BA” or to involve a salivating Asset Protection department, in trivial imagined slights.
The union representative for the vast majority of dispute related cases was a woman, representing predominantly female crew. The rep in question was Nicky Marcus, a polite, intelligent and articulate woman. She was sacked for being a good rep. Managers alleged that she was somehow threatening and intimidating towards the head of Asset Protection. A man who had spent a long career in the Metropolitan Police, coming into contact with hardened drug dealers, murderers and violent offenders prior to joining British Airways. Obviously this had not prepared him for his exposure to the ‘intimidating’ Nicky Marcus.
It would appear that cabin crew, and by de facto, predominantly women, had to be kept in their place at any cost.
BALPA’s crass intervention in our dispute was essentially a case of people whose earnings can be well in excess of £100k per year with pensions to match, telling colleagues that could earn less than a tenth of that, with a poverty line pension, not only actively telling people they should bow down and accept it but also willingly assisting an employer be able to introduce this gross distortion.
It wasn’t that long ago they wanted our help in helping to protect them from the threat of cheap pilots being used through open skies, how ironic are their current actions when we face the same threat. Next time they ask the answer will be a polite but firm
Fox Trot Oscar.
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This all seems to have the ring of desperation about it. It is all highly emotive and full of accusations yet short of any verifiable fact.
Perhaps DH has now been informed of the result of his Tribunal and does not care anymore.
Perhaps DH has now been informed of the result of his Tribunal and does not care anymore.
Last edited by Juan Tugoh; 15th Mar 2011 at 09:52.
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Good grief, who writes this tripe? Have they actually walked around Waterside? The female employees could well out-number the males. And how long have they been flying that they still don't know that foxtrot is all one word? I despair!
and nothing else?
only if they are 33%!
the answer is always NO, now what was the question?
sacked for being a good rep.
earn less than a tenth of that
Next time they ask the answer will be a polite but firm