BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Liesence to Fly,
I don't find your post helpful. It is comments like yours suggesting that Mixed Fleet will be doing ALL the lucrative routes that FEEDS this dispute.
By making these comments, you are actually confirming all the scaremongering Bassa have been doing and helping them make crew believe these things. BA have always said that routes will be shared evenly and will move back and forth between the fleets.
I can see that you are annoyed by Bassa and so am I and many others but by having these blanket views about ALL WW and E/F crews, who after all are just wanting to preserve their current salaries, as would all you pilots want to do, is not helpful. There are ONLY 5811 core BASSA supporters wanting a strike ( and to be honest most of them don't actually want it to come to that again!) and so it is not fair to tar all 14000 of us in this way and wish a pay cut on us any more than I would want to encourage BA to employ pilots on lower wages without assuring you that YOUR future earnings would be safe.
I take the view that BA will be true to their word and that Mixed Fleet will grow as we shrink and that the routes will be distributed fairly and as such I have not wanted to strike but the core Bassa supporters take another view and are fearful for the future.
In my own meagre opinion it would be more helpful, in the ending of this dispute, if people like you spread around the views that I have rather than actually trying to scare crew further by telling them they are going to loose all their good routes to Mixed Fleet. I am sure that all our fleets will have a mix of all kinds of routes and in fact being able to compare the service between the two sets of crew will actually create in-house competition and help drive service UP at the same time!!
I don't find your post helpful. It is comments like yours suggesting that Mixed Fleet will be doing ALL the lucrative routes that FEEDS this dispute.
By making these comments, you are actually confirming all the scaremongering Bassa have been doing and helping them make crew believe these things. BA have always said that routes will be shared evenly and will move back and forth between the fleets.
I can see that you are annoyed by Bassa and so am I and many others but by having these blanket views about ALL WW and E/F crews, who after all are just wanting to preserve their current salaries, as would all you pilots want to do, is not helpful. There are ONLY 5811 core BASSA supporters wanting a strike ( and to be honest most of them don't actually want it to come to that again!) and so it is not fair to tar all 14000 of us in this way and wish a pay cut on us any more than I would want to encourage BA to employ pilots on lower wages without assuring you that YOUR future earnings would be safe.
I take the view that BA will be true to their word and that Mixed Fleet will grow as we shrink and that the routes will be distributed fairly and as such I have not wanted to strike but the core Bassa supporters take another view and are fearful for the future.
In my own meagre opinion it would be more helpful, in the ending of this dispute, if people like you spread around the views that I have rather than actually trying to scare crew further by telling them they are going to loose all their good routes to Mixed Fleet. I am sure that all our fleets will have a mix of all kinds of routes and in fact being able to compare the service between the two sets of crew will actually create in-house competition and help drive service UP at the same time!!
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Hi betty girl.
Your comments are fair, but maybe I didn't make myself clear as that was not entirely what I meant!
BA is a very fair employer and I do not think for 1 minute that it will just pull all the lucrative routes and hand them to MF. What I was saying is if BASSA keep up their 'blocking' actions, strike/cause general cost to the business, BA will probably start pulling the high value routes and give them to MF.
Think about it, anyone who is not in the union can sign the new contract with your monthly guaranteed payment - anyone in the union does not have this protection, they make their bed and will have to lie in it
I am of course open to being corrected if I am wrong with my facts!
"Change is the only constant" , for all of us
LTF
Your comments are fair, but maybe I didn't make myself clear as that was not entirely what I meant!
BA is a very fair employer and I do not think for 1 minute that it will just pull all the lucrative routes and hand them to MF. What I was saying is if BASSA keep up their 'blocking' actions, strike/cause general cost to the business, BA will probably start pulling the high value routes and give them to MF.
Think about it, anyone who is not in the union can sign the new contract with your monthly guaranteed payment - anyone in the union does not have this protection, they make their bed and will have to lie in it
I am of course open to being corrected if I am wrong with my facts!
"Change is the only constant" , for all of us
LTF
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You are correct License to fly. This essentially was BA introducing a new pay scale for any future new entrants, changing the cost base for the future and not as people have been led to believe an attack on existing crews pay and conditions.
BA's intention is to spread the work across the fleets. New aircraft types when they arrive will simialrly be spread across the fleets. What people have forgotten is that it was the union who wanted it as a stand alone fleet. Routes will transfer between fleets.
2000+ crew have now signed up to an Individual Agreement and this gives them an annual top up if their own salary is down at all against the average salary for their grade. A no brainer. Routes on Mixed Fleet that attract payments wont any longer and that money is being moved to Worldwide to be paid on other routes and as an annual topup if triggered.
The monthly payment unfortunatly bit the dust a year ago in the talks as did the bid that cabin crew were offered for scheduling; not that the majority of crew were ever made aware of this.
Mixed Fleet is set to grow to 42% of the operating crew numbers from 01st November 2010. All future new entrants will be to Mixed Fleet contracts and rates of pay. The vacancies are being created by existing crew accepting part-time, people leaving, no temps for 2011 which usually number approx 500 and growth with new routes and increased frequencies resulting in aircraft being returned to service.
BA's intention is to spread the work across the fleets. New aircraft types when they arrive will simialrly be spread across the fleets. What people have forgotten is that it was the union who wanted it as a stand alone fleet. Routes will transfer between fleets.
2000+ crew have now signed up to an Individual Agreement and this gives them an annual top up if their own salary is down at all against the average salary for their grade. A no brainer. Routes on Mixed Fleet that attract payments wont any longer and that money is being moved to Worldwide to be paid on other routes and as an annual topup if triggered.
The monthly payment unfortunatly bit the dust a year ago in the talks as did the bid that cabin crew were offered for scheduling; not that the majority of crew were ever made aware of this.
Mixed Fleet is set to grow to 42% of the operating crew numbers from 01st November 2010. All future new entrants will be to Mixed Fleet contracts and rates of pay. The vacancies are being created by existing crew accepting part-time, people leaving, no temps for 2011 which usually number approx 500 and growth with new routes and increased frequencies resulting in aircraft being returned to service.
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I agree with you fly12345. The trouble is they are being led down the garden path. The deal that was on the table was the only deal on the table. They were never allowed to vote on it. They were kept in the dark about certain parts eg The bid for scheduling and stirred up with emails and texts about nonsence. It is so so so sad that so many intelligent people have been played like this as all the vast majority want is a sensible no nonsence settlement which would result in staff travel benefits being returned. Its so sad and I feel so sorry for them as it will be dreadful when they realise what has happened and how they have been played.
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Liesence to Fly,
Thank you for clarifying that.
I see what you are saying but I would just like to clarify something for you.
Yes the agreement does give an average payment per each cabin crew grade of the variable parts of our agreement and this is due to be paid at the end of each year, in fact January but covering the period November-October of each year.
This does not include our meal payments which on WW even out across the routes and their variables add up to a much higher proportion of their pay. However on E/F our variables are a much smaller figure and our top up payments are therefore much smaller. Our pay would be affected greatly by not flying on certain routes and if we were to get less work the top up would not compensate us as well as our WW colleagues.
However having said all that, I personally can't see why BA would want us not to work and so in my opinion as long as the routes are fairly distributed on E/F and WW for that matter, I see no reason for us to need the top up. What I am trying to explain is that although the top up is a welcome part of the agreement, on E/F, if it were triggered, we would still probably be out of pocket to some extent.
BF has said that he understands this and that is why he has constantly promised that he will do it fairly. Bassa just don't trust BA and feel in the future when BF has long gone someone else will come in and take all these promises away and that is what really is the reason that a lot of crew are still frightened whether they be strikers or non strikers.
Even I who am choosing to trust BA on this am worried!!! So there lies the problem in the minds of the cabin crew.
Bassa are on another agenda as well as this and a lot of it is to do with sacked and suspended colleges and Walsh making it part of the agreement, that the union were required to sign, that it was conditional that these cases cannot be taken through the courts and I have to say I have some sympathy with that.
I do feel that the way this has been handled has been bad on both sides and I am really hoping that KW will re-look at some of the stumbling blocks ie. what I have just mentioned above and staff travel which I think is less of an issue now but just adds to the injustice some of them seem to feel.
Before you all start shouting me down please remember that I don't agree with what BASSA has done and wished they had negotiated in good faith at the start and I actually believe that by calling the first strike so early, they have made everything a lot worse for all crew including our Mixed Fleet colleagues, who are suffering because they have such a very basic agreement. I worked because I did not agree with the strike but that does not mean that I totally feel BA is whiter than white in all this either.
In fact I would go as far as say that most crew were not that unhappy with the agreement but it was just a few bits in it that the union felt tied their hands regarding disaplinaries which made them not want to agree to it and as a lot of reps are the suspended ones this is not surprising!! Surely Walsh could see that too!
BG
These are my own views and not those of BA
Thank you for clarifying that.
I see what you are saying but I would just like to clarify something for you.
Yes the agreement does give an average payment per each cabin crew grade of the variable parts of our agreement and this is due to be paid at the end of each year, in fact January but covering the period November-October of each year.
This does not include our meal payments which on WW even out across the routes and their variables add up to a much higher proportion of their pay. However on E/F our variables are a much smaller figure and our top up payments are therefore much smaller. Our pay would be affected greatly by not flying on certain routes and if we were to get less work the top up would not compensate us as well as our WW colleagues.
However having said all that, I personally can't see why BA would want us not to work and so in my opinion as long as the routes are fairly distributed on E/F and WW for that matter, I see no reason for us to need the top up. What I am trying to explain is that although the top up is a welcome part of the agreement, on E/F, if it were triggered, we would still probably be out of pocket to some extent.
BF has said that he understands this and that is why he has constantly promised that he will do it fairly. Bassa just don't trust BA and feel in the future when BF has long gone someone else will come in and take all these promises away and that is what really is the reason that a lot of crew are still frightened whether they be strikers or non strikers.
Even I who am choosing to trust BA on this am worried!!! So there lies the problem in the minds of the cabin crew.
Bassa are on another agenda as well as this and a lot of it is to do with sacked and suspended colleges and Walsh making it part of the agreement, that the union were required to sign, that it was conditional that these cases cannot be taken through the courts and I have to say I have some sympathy with that.
I do feel that the way this has been handled has been bad on both sides and I am really hoping that KW will re-look at some of the stumbling blocks ie. what I have just mentioned above and staff travel which I think is less of an issue now but just adds to the injustice some of them seem to feel.
Before you all start shouting me down please remember that I don't agree with what BASSA has done and wished they had negotiated in good faith at the start and I actually believe that by calling the first strike so early, they have made everything a lot worse for all crew including our Mixed Fleet colleagues, who are suffering because they have such a very basic agreement. I worked because I did not agree with the strike but that does not mean that I totally feel BA is whiter than white in all this either.
In fact I would go as far as say that most crew were not that unhappy with the agreement but it was just a few bits in it that the union felt tied their hands regarding disaplinaries which made them not want to agree to it and as a lot of reps are the suspended ones this is not surprising!! Surely Walsh could see that too!
BG
These are my own views and not those of BA
Last edited by Betty girl; 30th Mar 2011 at 11:56.
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BF has said that he understands this and that is why he has constantly promised that he will do it fairly. Bassa just don't trust BA and feel in the future when BF has long gone someone else will come in and take all these promises away and that is what really is the reason that a lot of crew are still frightened whether they be strikers or non strikers.
Even if what is the point in striking now?
If and when ba was going to not keep their word then and only then perhaps a strike or some form of dispute could materialise.
What is the point in destroying your job security now in the event that something might or might not happen in the future?
Even if what is the point in striking now?
If and when ba was going to not keep their word then and only then perhaps a strike or some form of dispute could materialise.
What is the point in destroying your job security now in the event that something might or might not happen in the future?
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fly12345,
Well I agree with you, it was a very bad move by Bassa and further strikes would be a worse move by them.
It was not thought out and has actually resulted in a bad deal for us, a bad deal for Mixed Fleet, bad for our customers, bad for our airline and has been bad for Bassa as a union because it has weakened them completely for ever!!
Well I agree with you, it was a very bad move by Bassa and further strikes would be a worse move by them.
It was not thought out and has actually resulted in a bad deal for us, a bad deal for Mixed Fleet, bad for our customers, bad for our airline and has been bad for Bassa as a union because it has weakened them completely for ever!!
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I'd just like to add one more thing.
I don't see bullying by BA going on at all. The people speaking on the radio were obviously Bassa reps and as such may well have a distorted view but I don't think that the majority of crew feel at all bullied by BA.
Most just want an end to all this.
It did upset me hearing these people portray the company, that I have always loved working for, in that way and it does nothing for their cause except upset the rest of us and put off our future customers.
These are my own views
I don't see bullying by BA going on at all. The people speaking on the radio were obviously Bassa reps and as such may well have a distorted view but I don't think that the majority of crew feel at all bullied by BA.
Most just want an end to all this.
It did upset me hearing these people portray the company, that I have always loved working for, in that way and it does nothing for their cause except upset the rest of us and put off our future customers.
These are my own views
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Ms Derbyshire suggested it was passenger.
If any of you follow cabincrew.com there's a shocking thread kicked off under 'BASSA tribunals'.
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Bassa's claims of persecution (Holocaust References)
Just had a wonderful long weekend in Washington DC.
May I suggest you all do as I did and visit the Holocaust Museum, which is free to enter and is well-placed just up the road in between the Lincoln Memorial and Capitol Hill.
Nobody that has ever visited this warm and uplifting place can ever be the same again after seeing and hearing the personal accounts from the survivors and the Liberators and seeing the video and still footage of the sheer hell that Mankind somehow created in the Forties.
For DH and his cronies to seek sympathy from the masses by comparing his justified sacking to the horrors of the Death Camps of Belsen, Sobibor and Aushwitz, is just sickening as it devalues, and even denies, that the Holocaust actually took place and that there are lessons to be learned for us all.
Lest we forget.
May I suggest you all do as I did and visit the Holocaust Museum, which is free to enter and is well-placed just up the road in between the Lincoln Memorial and Capitol Hill.
Nobody that has ever visited this warm and uplifting place can ever be the same again after seeing and hearing the personal accounts from the survivors and the Liberators and seeing the video and still footage of the sheer hell that Mankind somehow created in the Forties.
For DH and his cronies to seek sympathy from the masses by comparing his justified sacking to the horrors of the Death Camps of Belsen, Sobibor and Aushwitz, is just sickening as it devalues, and even denies, that the Holocaust actually took place and that there are lessons to be learned for us all.
Lest we forget.
The bassamentalists should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves, but I guess that is too much to hope for.
If any of you follow cabincrew.com there's a shocking thread kicked off under 'BASSA tribunals'.
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I also heard the Radio 5 debate. I feel I must also express that the use of 'Kristallnacht' with regard to the work environment in BA was totally uncalled for and completely disproportionate to what is actually going on. As a Jew with Polish/Russian descendants I was bought up to know and fully understand those terrible times. It is with sadness that I hear colleagues use such rhetoric with little thought to what it actual means.
I know that this is a minority view however in this instance the minority view got heard louder than the majority. I content myself by knowing that this comment would have devalued the speakers other points of view. Radio 5 listeners are bright enough.
I know that this is a minority view however in this instance the minority view got heard louder than the majority. I content myself by knowing that this comment would have devalued the speakers other points of view. Radio 5 listeners are bright enough.
Junior trash
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Someone on the aircraft.
Last year BA engineering were dealing with 4-6 aircraft per day into LHR with broken light switches/doors in the crew bunks which triggers an extra payment for the crew. Except for during the 22 days of the strike when not one single fault was reported. Coincidence?