BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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To be honest, some of you are making yourselves look ridiculous by nit picking Mesmer's post.
There is no other airline that has less that 14 crew on a 747 with the type of premium cabins that BA has. Most have far in excess. What's your problem!!...... Lets do it with even less!!!!....... it wont be a nice service for our passengers...... but who cares, as long as it's as unpleasant as possible for the cabin crew... that's ok then!!!!!!
Get real please, Mesmer said she/he understood why the crew were removed. she/he just said it did not make for good customer satisfaction, if the CSD gets called away, that's all.
Quite frankly as Mesmer has no axe to grind and is not a militant Bassa mentalist, just a hard working crew member that backed BA and did not strike, I tend to believe him/her when she/he says that club can be hard at times. I expect that none of you posting the opposite opinion have ever worked in an aircraft cabin......thought not!!
There is no other airline that has less that 14 crew on a 747 with the type of premium cabins that BA has. Most have far in excess. What's your problem!!...... Lets do it with even less!!!!....... it wont be a nice service for our passengers...... but who cares, as long as it's as unpleasant as possible for the cabin crew... that's ok then!!!!!!
Get real please, Mesmer said she/he understood why the crew were removed. she/he just said it did not make for good customer satisfaction, if the CSD gets called away, that's all.
Quite frankly as Mesmer has no axe to grind and is not a militant Bassa mentalist, just a hard working crew member that backed BA and did not strike, I tend to believe him/her when she/he says that club can be hard at times. I expect that none of you posting the opposite opinion have ever worked in an aircraft cabin......thought not!!
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Easy Betty Girl - the point most seem to be missing is that it does not matter if crew believe the level of service or product has deteriorated as a result of the 'one down'! That is nothing to do with their remit.
Management have their job and we have ours. They had to make decisions to steer the airline through the roughest patch of its life. Cutting costs was fundamental.
Have passengers left in droves?? No - the load factors are excellent and the company making small profits again. I would say they have done great job.
I got sick of hearing CC on the radio and reading in the papers how it was not about money but about the damage to the brand and the level of service - what utter rubbish.
Whats next - should CC choose what fleet of aircraft to buy next? Should management consult CC about what routes they would like to see on the network?
Of course not - there are very clever people and very clever procedures of examination that take care of that - nothing to do with our jobs at all.
I hastily add that I recognise very clever people work as CC but they would equally find it quite insulting if a financial analyst from waterside was travelling as a pax and told them they were doing their job wrong!!!
Management have their job and we have ours. They had to make decisions to steer the airline through the roughest patch of its life. Cutting costs was fundamental.
Have passengers left in droves?? No - the load factors are excellent and the company making small profits again. I would say they have done great job.
I got sick of hearing CC on the radio and reading in the papers how it was not about money but about the damage to the brand and the level of service - what utter rubbish.
Whats next - should CC choose what fleet of aircraft to buy next? Should management consult CC about what routes they would like to see on the network?
Of course not - there are very clever people and very clever procedures of examination that take care of that - nothing to do with our jobs at all.
I hastily add that I recognise very clever people work as CC but they would equally find it quite insulting if a financial analyst from waterside was travelling as a pax and told them they were doing their job wrong!!!
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the point most seem to be missing is that it does not matter if crew believe the level of service or product has deteriorated as a result of the 'one down'! That is nothing to do with their remit.
I have no idea whether this has been the case with your pilot training but for the last decade, we have trained the 'go the extra mile' message into the cabin crew along with a 'guardian of the customer experience' mentality. In short, we told them it was their remit. (The mood before that was all about the individual, with crew encouraged to 'be unique' and bring their personality to work).
We now have to retrain them into 'just do what it says in the service book' and the only extra they can get is 'you'! This is quite a difficult message to get your head around as it is so different to the ones that have gone before, so in the spirit of all 'change management' principles, it will take time and training to adapt the mindset. On Eurofleet we are currently delivering 'Eurofleet Experience' which is designed to do just that; it still goes against the grain not to hunt around the aircraft to find someone a veggie alternative, to lay the apple juice down so no-one sees it or fetch a Eurotraveller customer a Bailey's because you know it will make them happy.
It's also about retraining our customers because they are used to us stretching the rules to make them happy and they don't like to be told 'NO'. It's not always easy being shouted at for a whimsical change (e.g. removing hot towels from Club Europe) which has come from a faceless individual who may never have worked on an aeroplane.
So it's not the crews fault per se, old habits die hard but give us time, we'll get there just in time for the next change of direction from head office.
Last edited by ottergirl; 28th Feb 2011 at 08:54.
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Unfortunately Ottergirl, that is the way of aviation these days. Whilst airlines still bang on about customer service,customer service it is all about saving money and if that entails cutting back on the number of staff expected to do a particular job - so be it. I have been in aviation industry for more years than I care to mention and worked for a number of airlines both UK and abroad but the last 10 years I have seen the reality change beyond recognition. As you say it is a difficult lesson to learn and when you are from the "old school" of thought it does take a big shift in the way you approach your role.
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Firstly happy to be back home after our yearly visit to see family. Luckily got Club both ways, as still have my FULL travel concessions
Our longhaul flights on BA were fantastic. Not saying that because I work for them, far from it, but on both sectors the crew including both CSD's were exemplary. In fact the best we have had for years, and believe me I was not sure WHAT we were going to get. Well done. Had a couple of yellow/red pens come and have a look from the back - I just smiled,winked and raised my glass of bubbly
( Sorry but after all the c**p this past year, they deserved it!! )
So we have ANOTHER ballot. It will certainly be a 'YES'. But will Lenny and Dunc go for an actual strike. Probably as it coincides with Easter and the wedding. Too tempting me thinks. So KW has said that anyone going on strike next year will not get a bonus.This makes me think that BA are not going to dismiss any crew who are involved in an unprotected strike. Why say it then?
Seems to me that BA are playing the 'very long game' here, but personally my message to WW, KW and BF is, WE THE NON STRIKERS HAVE HAD ENOUGH. Don't please go all weak on us now. You have given the strikers a bonus ( they are laughing at you and us), so why let this carry on. If there is an unprotected strike, let it happen and then put them out of their misery. Remember its the rest of us ( thats ALL staff in BA) who have got you through all of this
Less crew
Mesmer
I also seem to remember in the not so distant past, there were 340 pax in M on a 744 (14F55J340M) this reduced with WT+ and new club and no reduction in crew.....
Good point
Yes and the same on EF as I keep reminding crew. The product even 10 years ago was much more and yet the crewing levals stayed the same until the 'imposition' in nov 09. As an aside, from my days on WW, I found half the problem was that the pursers weren't very proactive at helping in other cabins. EG On many occasions, we would be full in 1st and W/T, yet have say 20 pax in club ( out of 48 seats) with 4 crew. NEVER would the purser say to me as the CSD, I'm going to send one of my crew down the back to help straight away even though 3 of them could comfortably lokk after 20 pax. If I mentioned it, they would do it, but if I didn't, nothing would happen until the Club service was over.Its all about 'managing' the whole a/c. Interestingly, since going to 14 crew, my CSD friends on WW have said its actually brought the crew together more and that crew help without being prompted.
Our longhaul flights on BA were fantastic. Not saying that because I work for them, far from it, but on both sectors the crew including both CSD's were exemplary. In fact the best we have had for years, and believe me I was not sure WHAT we were going to get. Well done. Had a couple of yellow/red pens come and have a look from the back - I just smiled,winked and raised my glass of bubbly ( Sorry but after all the c**p this past year, they deserved it!! )So we have ANOTHER ballot. It will certainly be a 'YES'. But will Lenny and Dunc go for an actual strike. Probably as it coincides with Easter and the wedding. Too tempting me thinks. So KW has said that anyone going on strike next year will not get a bonus.This makes me think that BA are not going to dismiss any crew who are involved in an unprotected strike. Why say it then?
Seems to me that BA are playing the 'very long game' here, but personally my message to WW, KW and BF is, WE THE NON STRIKERS HAVE HAD ENOUGH. Don't please go all weak on us now. You have given the strikers a bonus ( they are laughing at you and us), so why let this carry on. If there is an unprotected strike, let it happen and then put them out of their misery. Remember its the rest of us ( thats ALL staff in BA) who have got you through all of this
Less crew
Mesmer
I also seem to remember in the not so distant past, there were 340 pax in M on a 744 (14F55J340M) this reduced with WT+ and new club and no reduction in crew.....
Good point
Yes and the same on EF as I keep reminding crew. The product even 10 years ago was much more and yet the crewing levals stayed the same until the 'imposition' in nov 09. As an aside, from my days on WW, I found half the problem was that the pursers weren't very proactive at helping in other cabins. EG On many occasions, we would be full in 1st and W/T, yet have say 20 pax in club ( out of 48 seats) with 4 crew. NEVER would the purser say to me as the CSD, I'm going to send one of my crew down the back to help straight away even though 3 of them could comfortably lokk after 20 pax. If I mentioned it, they would do it, but if I didn't, nothing would happen until the Club service was over.Its all about 'managing' the whole a/c. Interestingly, since going to 14 crew, my CSD friends on WW have said its actually brought the crew together more and that crew help without being prompted.
Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 28th Feb 2011 at 13:08.
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JUAN TRIPP wrote:
I believe that the strategy all along was to tough it out and not crumble under trade union power as had happened too often.
If there will be more strikes, then Unite will not be in a good position. BA will have operated most of its flights during the strikes and Unite will have struck for 10 reasons (listed below for convenience). There will be no more reasons to go on strike again, so Unite will have lost. All that aggravation and cost for so little, how stupid can you be.
Reasons for striking
1. The immediate restoration of staff travel concessions, in full, to the crew from whom they were taken.
2. Binding arbitration, through ACAS, of all cabin crew disciplinary cases related to the original dispute.
3. The restoration of all earnings docked from crew who were genuinely off sick during strike dates.
4. Full and proper discussion of the trade union facilities agreement at the company with the immediate removal of all threats and sanctions made by the company in relation to this.
5. The immediate cessation of actions taken against elected representatives of cabin crew, including; victimization; intimidation and exclusion.
6. The introduction of mixed fleet on different terms and conditions without agreement with the union.
7. The discrimination applied to union members in the allocation of part time contracts and transfers in breach of the Ops and Choice framework.
8. The company's continued and specific disregard for necessary union agreement in advance of any application of the disruption agreement.
9. The continued use of volunteer and/or temporary crew from outside the recognised NSP on both the Eurofleet and Worldwide fleets and their employment on terms and arrangements outside of existing agreements between BA and the union.
10. The company's offer of a separate pay settlement and variations to terms and conditions for those willing to accept non-negotiated changes to their contracts.
Seems to me that BA are playing the 'very long game' here
If there will be more strikes, then Unite will not be in a good position. BA will have operated most of its flights during the strikes and Unite will have struck for 10 reasons (listed below for convenience). There will be no more reasons to go on strike again, so Unite will have lost. All that aggravation and cost for so little, how stupid can you be.
Reasons for striking
1. The immediate restoration of staff travel concessions, in full, to the crew from whom they were taken.
2. Binding arbitration, through ACAS, of all cabin crew disciplinary cases related to the original dispute.
3. The restoration of all earnings docked from crew who were genuinely off sick during strike dates.
4. Full and proper discussion of the trade union facilities agreement at the company with the immediate removal of all threats and sanctions made by the company in relation to this.
5. The immediate cessation of actions taken against elected representatives of cabin crew, including; victimization; intimidation and exclusion.
6. The introduction of mixed fleet on different terms and conditions without agreement with the union.
7. The discrimination applied to union members in the allocation of part time contracts and transfers in breach of the Ops and Choice framework.
8. The company's continued and specific disregard for necessary union agreement in advance of any application of the disruption agreement.
9. The continued use of volunteer and/or temporary crew from outside the recognised NSP on both the Eurofleet and Worldwide fleets and their employment on terms and arrangements outside of existing agreements between BA and the union.
10. The company's offer of a separate pay settlement and variations to terms and conditions for those willing to accept non-negotiated changes to their contracts.
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Juan, what a condesending post. Are you deluded?
You 'got' club because there was space in club. I brought a staff passenger back from a long range destination on my last trip. She had paid premium standby. She travelled on the jump seat at 5R. 12hrs. Naturally we made the trip as comfortable as possible.
Why would the crews or indeed the CSDs not be exemplary? Even CEO Williams accepts that will always be the case. It is generally the product which lets BA down. 'Not sure what we were going to get' - the BA product served to the best of the crew's abilities - no question. If I knew who you were, would I question what I was going to get. No. Grow up and stop believing the belittling waffle on this spite filled thread.
And why would anyone else know who you are? Are you now paranoid as well, red pens coming through the cabin just to see you. I can assure you they have better things to do.
Out of interest. Since your days on long haul, passenger numbers onboard may have been reduced. But from your recent FULL staff travel experience would you not agree that the current club service is fiddly, messy and long, oh and labour intensive if done properly.
You 'got' club because there was space in club. I brought a staff passenger back from a long range destination on my last trip. She had paid premium standby. She travelled on the jump seat at 5R. 12hrs. Naturally we made the trip as comfortable as possible.
Why would the crews or indeed the CSDs not be exemplary? Even CEO Williams accepts that will always be the case. It is generally the product which lets BA down. 'Not sure what we were going to get' - the BA product served to the best of the crew's abilities - no question. If I knew who you were, would I question what I was going to get. No. Grow up and stop believing the belittling waffle on this spite filled thread.
And why would anyone else know who you are? Are you now paranoid as well, red pens coming through the cabin just to see you. I can assure you they have better things to do.
Out of interest. Since your days on long haul, passenger numbers onboard may have been reduced. But from your recent FULL staff travel experience would you not agree that the current club service is fiddly, messy and long, oh and labour intensive if done properly.
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Juan Tripp
Luckily got Club both ways, as still have my FULL travel concessions Our longhaul flights on BA were fantastic. Not saying that because I work for them, far from it, but on both sectors the crew including both CSD's were exemplary. In fact the best we have had for years, and believe me I was not sure WHAT we were going to get. Well done. Had a couple of yellow/red pens come and have a look from the back - I just smiled,winked and raised my glass of bubbly ( Sorry but after all the c**p this past year, they deserved it!! )
If anything someone probably said "go and have a look at the prat in Club wearing Farah's and sandals"
You made a provocative posting to solicit a response and you got one
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Assessments of crew performance made while wearing champagne goggles are rarely reliable and sometimes reveal rather more about the person making the statement than was intended. That said, may we move on now from attention seekers to the subject in hand - Thanks
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PC767:
Labour intensive????? That says it all. It really isn't difficult to see how we've ended up in the current situation.
And you call someone else deluded...
the current club service is fiddly, messy and long, oh and labour intensive if done properly.
And you call someone else deluded...
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I hear a few of the mentalists may be finding themselves in court or on disciplinaries after posts about a pilot in another place.
All stirred on by one of their leaders.
Oh dear.
I also hear that when requested by the police real names have been very easily forthcoming from the office.On at least 6 occasions I believe. It didnt even need a court order.
All stirred on by one of their leaders.
Oh dear.
I also hear that when requested by the police real names have been very easily forthcoming from the office.On at least 6 occasions I believe. It didnt even need a court order.
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Tightslot
Assessments of crew performance made while wearing champagne goggles are rarely reliable and sometimes reveal rather more about the person making the statement than was intended. That said, may we move on now from attention seekers to the subject in hand - Thanks
PC767 said
Juan, what a condesending post. Are you deluded?
You 'got' club because there was space in club. I brought a staff passenger back from a long range destination on my last trip. She had paid premium standby. She travelled on the jump seat at 5R. 12hrs. Naturally we made the trip as comfortable as possible.
Why would the crews or indeed the CSDs not be exemplary? Even CEO Williams accepts that will always be the case. It is generally the product which lets BA down. 'Not sure what we were going to get' - the BA product served to the best of the crew's abilities - no question. If I knew who you were, would I question what I was going to get. No. Grow up and stop believing the belittling waffle on this spite filled thread.
You 'got' club because there was space in club. I brought a staff passenger back from a long range destination on my last trip. She had paid premium standby. She travelled on the jump seat at 5R. 12hrs. Naturally we made the trip as comfortable as possible.
Why would the crews or indeed the CSDs not be exemplary? Even CEO Williams accepts that will always be the case. It is generally the product which lets BA down. 'Not sure what we were going to get' - the BA product served to the best of the crew's abilities - no question. If I knew who you were, would I question what I was going to get. No. Grow up and stop believing the belittling waffle on this spite filled thread.
MFCREW said
I'm sorry but that is total bull**** - as if you just "smiled,winked and raised my glass of bubbly" - what a liar.
If anything someone probably said "go and have a look at the prat in Club wearing Farah's and sandals"
You made a provocative posting to solicit a response and you got one
If anything someone probably said "go and have a look at the prat in Club wearing Farah's and sandals"
You made a provocative posting to solicit a response and you got one
Anyway enough now, I will now move onto the next 'situation' to talk about, whatever that may be. JT
Last edited by JUAN TRIPP; 1st Mar 2011 at 17:41.
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Fruitbat - spite.
Let me join in. You are a pilot, BA? LH?
If so, are you one of those who I serve tea, coffee, OJ, apple juice, 1st espresso, hot water, cold water, Times, Daily Mail, Telegraph, anything else with a crossword, sandwich, club kitchen chocolate, hot meal, any thing left in first meal, nuts, cheese board (oh hang on thats gone), sort your crew purchase out, spare pillow for controlled rest and wake up your colleague from official rest. And clean up the first seat once you've finished your movie.
Forgive me for not pitying you, or questioning your bunk time. Forgive me for not bowing to your experience of operating the club cabin on world wide.
Despite the spite game, let me say in sincerety I apprieciate your role, your achievements, your hard worked for rewards and your hard fought t&cs. But this is a cabin crew thread for BA staff, and as BA cabin crew who works on LHR WW and operates the club cabin I maintain it is labour intensive and fiddly. Not unpleasant not mundane, not strenuous, not unenjoyable. Labour intensive, particularily when passengers cannot have meal choice No1, nor No2. Not when the wine list should be embroided with a 'Bullseye' Bully and a micro player inside reciting (in a Jim Bowen accent) 'look at what you could have had.' Not when the caterer meets Heston onboard and states 70% meal load for 100% occupancy. Its a challenge and I enjoy it, I would have trained to be a pilot otherwise!!
But it is labour intensive. Did I mention losing the CSD from the service while they placate Mr Gold in first whose seat is u/s (again).......
Let me join in. You are a pilot, BA? LH?
If so, are you one of those who I serve tea, coffee, OJ, apple juice, 1st espresso, hot water, cold water, Times, Daily Mail, Telegraph, anything else with a crossword, sandwich, club kitchen chocolate, hot meal, any thing left in first meal, nuts, cheese board (oh hang on thats gone), sort your crew purchase out, spare pillow for controlled rest and wake up your colleague from official rest. And clean up the first seat once you've finished your movie.
Forgive me for not pitying you, or questioning your bunk time. Forgive me for not bowing to your experience of operating the club cabin on world wide.
Despite the spite game, let me say in sincerety I apprieciate your role, your achievements, your hard worked for rewards and your hard fought t&cs. But this is a cabin crew thread for BA staff, and as BA cabin crew who works on LHR WW and operates the club cabin I maintain it is labour intensive and fiddly. Not unpleasant not mundane, not strenuous, not unenjoyable. Labour intensive, particularily when passengers cannot have meal choice No1, nor No2. Not when the wine list should be embroided with a 'Bullseye' Bully and a micro player inside reciting (in a Jim Bowen accent) 'look at what you could have had.' Not when the caterer meets Heston onboard and states 70% meal load for 100% occupancy. Its a challenge and I enjoy it, I would have trained to be a pilot otherwise!!
But it is labour intensive. Did I mention losing the CSD from the service while they placate Mr Gold in first whose seat is u/s (again).......
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Spare a thought for some of your line managers - they can have a pretty heavy workload too! Managing teams of 200+ people, no pay rise for god knows how long, some earning less than some main crew members, more and more responsibility, etc.
Views above are my own, not those of my employer
Views above are my own, not those of my employer
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PC767
What is your point exactly? If a proper service takes 2 hours in stead of 1,5, so what?
Service levels vary greatly from flight to flight. You may always give your best, but unfortunately not everyone is the same. We have great crew, but there's no point in denying we have a lot of rot: "I don't give a sh*t, lets chuck meals and go to bed, let's bring the company to it's knees"
This is not spite, horrible prejudiced pilot talk. Look at the pax forum (not just this one). There is always a feeling of "I wonder what the crew/service will be like on this flight"
And please, can you try to avoid putting "labour intensive" and club service in one message? It really does make me want to
What is your point exactly? If a proper service takes 2 hours in stead of 1,5, so what?
Service levels vary greatly from flight to flight. You may always give your best, but unfortunately not everyone is the same. We have great crew, but there's no point in denying we have a lot of rot: "I don't give a sh*t, lets chuck meals and go to bed, let's bring the company to it's knees"
This is not spite, horrible prejudiced pilot talk. Look at the pax forum (not just this one). There is always a feeling of "I wonder what the crew/service will be like on this flight"
And please, can you try to avoid putting "labour intensive" and club service in one message? It really does make me want to
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Thread warp - As a Eurofleeter it is not often I have to deliver the Club World service (only TLV) but I have to agree with PC767 - it does not flow! This is nothing to do with the crew delivering it or their leader working a trolley. Over the years I have delivered different business class services and this one doesn't seem fit for purpose either for the recipients or the deliverers because it is falling between two briefs; trying to give a restaurant twist to a limited-budget airline service and failing. Also as a passenger may I say that the quality of food on the last couple of flights I have taken seems to have been designed by Asda rather than Heston. A major overhaul is needed here and I am hoping our new boss from the Jumeirah group will use his experience of premium customer service to spearhead such a change.
PC767
superb post, made me laugh out loud which has confused the CRC TV room no end!
“The postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent British Airways’ positions, strategies or opinions.”
PC767
If so, are you one of those who I serve tea, coffee, OJ, apple juice, 1st espresso, hot water, cold water, Times, Daily Mail, Telegraph, anything else with a crossword, sandwich, club kitchen chocolate, hot meal, any thing left in first meal, nuts, cheese board (oh hang on thats gone), sort your crew purchase out, spare pillow for controlled rest and wake up your colleague from official rest. And clean up the first seat once you've finished your movie.
“The postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent British Airways’ positions, strategies or opinions.”