BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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I must say, BG, I think that is an extremely naive view of the situation.
Do you honestly think that, in years to come, with our competitors working to the newer, more commercially effective limits. there is not going to be a gradual ratchetting of your own rosters towards the EASA limits?
Either that, or you stick rigidly to your current limits (the BASSA "nyet" school of negotiation) and become so economically inefficient that you are all "encouraged" to find alternative employment as NF undergo exponential growth.
In either event, should these proposals become law, we are ALL, both pilots and cabin crew, into a whole world of hurt.
I really, really wish that I believed that BASSA's "laissez faire" approach was the result of a realistic analysis of the likelihood of these proposals becoming law, and the effect they would have on its' members. But, given their long history of blundering when anything requiring even a modicum of intelligent thought comes along, I am forced to conclude that it is due to incompetence and a lack of awareness.
Do you honestly think that, in years to come, with our competitors working to the newer, more commercially effective limits. there is not going to be a gradual ratchetting of your own rosters towards the EASA limits?
Either that, or you stick rigidly to your current limits (the BASSA "nyet" school of negotiation) and become so economically inefficient that you are all "encouraged" to find alternative employment as NF undergo exponential growth.
In either event, should these proposals become law, we are ALL, both pilots and cabin crew, into a whole world of hurt.
I really, really wish that I believed that BASSA's "laissez faire" approach was the result of a realistic analysis of the likelihood of these proposals becoming law, and the effect they would have on its' members. But, given their long history of blundering when anything requiring even a modicum of intelligent thought comes along, I am forced to conclude that it is due to incompetence and a lack of awareness.
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EuroFTL's vs Scheduling agreements
Hi Betty Girl,
I think I understand your point - scheme might increase but our agreements would prevent BA implementing this increase. (to paraphrase).
Pilots in BA are rostered to Bidline rules (which are more restricitve than scheme) in the same way Cabin Crew are rostered to their scheduling agreements.
'On the day' Pilots will usually extend to scheme, but have the option not to, of course.
That's how things stand today with CAP 371 (scheme) and everyones agreements.
Now project forward just 2 or 3 years....
The new EuroFTL's are in place and 2 or 3 airlines have pushed through agreements with their crews to work close to these new limits: 1000hrs/yr... arriving at a longhaul destination in the morning & departing that same evening... 5 sectors in Shorthaul, 7hrs in a hotel then 3 sectors (then the same the next day).... impromtu split duties... the list of horrifically fatiguing things goes on.
BA approaches BALPA & BASSA with the news that we crew are double the cost of our competitors - we must become more productive or the airline will not survive (sound familiar?!). And it's true - our competitors will have huge competative advantages.
What to do?
Strike? Possibly - but if BA genuinly can't support our pay & conditions, how will that help?
So we'd have to negotiate, and inevitably our scheduling agreements would trend closer & closer to these new EuroFTL's.
Surely the best response is to try and influence the FTL legislation before it's set in stone?
BALPA has put enormous amounts of effort into organising resistance to these changes, and the FTL's will have just a profound effect on Cabin Crew as Pilots.
In short - neither Cabin Crew or Pilots will be able to rely on scheduling agreements to protect them if these EuroFTL's ,in their current form, become law.
I think I understand your point - scheme might increase but our agreements would prevent BA implementing this increase. (to paraphrase).
Pilots in BA are rostered to Bidline rules (which are more restricitve than scheme) in the same way Cabin Crew are rostered to their scheduling agreements.
'On the day' Pilots will usually extend to scheme, but have the option not to, of course.
That's how things stand today with CAP 371 (scheme) and everyones agreements.
Now project forward just 2 or 3 years....
The new EuroFTL's are in place and 2 or 3 airlines have pushed through agreements with their crews to work close to these new limits: 1000hrs/yr... arriving at a longhaul destination in the morning & departing that same evening... 5 sectors in Shorthaul, 7hrs in a hotel then 3 sectors (then the same the next day).... impromtu split duties... the list of horrifically fatiguing things goes on.
BA approaches BALPA & BASSA with the news that we crew are double the cost of our competitors - we must become more productive or the airline will not survive (sound familiar?!). And it's true - our competitors will have huge competative advantages.
What to do?
Strike? Possibly - but if BA genuinly can't support our pay & conditions, how will that help?
So we'd have to negotiate, and inevitably our scheduling agreements would trend closer & closer to these new EuroFTL's.
Surely the best response is to try and influence the FTL legislation before it's set in stone?
BALPA has put enormous amounts of effort into organising resistance to these changes, and the FTL's will have just a profound effect on Cabin Crew as Pilots.
In short - neither Cabin Crew or Pilots will be able to rely on scheduling agreements to protect them if these EuroFTL's ,in their current form, become law.
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Thank you for explaining that to me Dave.
I can see that Unite (aka Bassa and Amicus) should be investigating these things in a simolar way to Balpa but how do all of you know that this has not been happening?
I can see that Unite (aka Bassa and Amicus) should be investigating these things in a simolar way to Balpa but how do all of you know that this has not been happening?
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Let's hope that they are.
It does seem a possibility that the BASSA high command are putting all their energy & resources into fighting the current battle, though - I haven't heard any crew talking about FTL's in the galleys or downroute.
The great pity is that even if BASSA pull a rabbit out of the hat and win todays battle, the war will be lost tomorrow anyway (for all of us).
It does seem a possibility that the BASSA high command are putting all their energy & resources into fighting the current battle, though - I haven't heard any crew talking about FTL's in the galleys or downroute.
The great pity is that even if BASSA pull a rabbit out of the hat and win todays battle, the war will be lost tomorrow anyway (for all of us).
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Can I also ask a question to those of you that are more informed about this new legislation.
Do the CAA have to agree for UK crews to work to these new limits or can the CAA continue to set airline schemes in the way that they do now.
I believe that they set our current scheme rules, as they are now, for reasons of safety. Can the CAA overrule these new limits for UK airlines or are they required to lower their limits to the same as these EASA FTL.
Can I also ask who is it that has decided these new FTL, who is the EASA?
Thanks BG
Do the CAA have to agree for UK crews to work to these new limits or can the CAA continue to set airline schemes in the way that they do now.
I believe that they set our current scheme rules, as they are now, for reasons of safety. Can the CAA overrule these new limits for UK airlines or are they required to lower their limits to the same as these EASA FTL.
Can I also ask who is it that has decided these new FTL, who is the EASA?
Thanks BG
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dave747436
Please correct me if I am wrong. BA flight crew work to scheme, whatever the scheme that is in force is?
The majority of BA cabin crew work to industrial agreements and as long as that agreement is "apt for incorporation", unlike the manning level issue, then those agreements can only be changed by agreement, unless for some other substantial reason.
Would you as an individual support the protection against a unilateral change to a contractual obligation?
The majority of BA cabin crew work to industrial agreements and as long as that agreement is "apt for incorporation", unlike the manning level issue, then those agreements can only be changed by agreement, unless for some other substantial reason.
Would you as an individual support the protection against a unilateral change to a contractual obligation?
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BA Pilots work to bidline rules which are industrial agreements and limits much like the cabin crew work to their industrial agreements. As dave747436 says pilots can work to scheme should the need arise on the day and be willing.
Much that we could kick and fight our way through and say we wont accept any changes to our agreements, should every other competitor be working their crews to EASA limits then it is a futile fight. The worst case scenario is we win and make BA uncompetitive and ultimately put them (and us) out of business, the best case scenario is we loose and end up working to or closer to EASA limits and fly round with eyes out on matchsticks.
Much that we could kick and fight our way through and say we wont accept any changes to our agreements, should every other competitor be working their crews to EASA limits then it is a futile fight. The worst case scenario is we win and make BA uncompetitive and ultimately put them (and us) out of business, the best case scenario is we loose and end up working to or closer to EASA limits and fly round with eyes out on matchsticks.
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Hi LB,
Not quite! BA pilots are rostered to Bidline limits which, as with the cabin crew, are our industrial agreement. The same negotiation is required to amend BLRs as would be for the CC industrial flight time limitations to be amended. That some pilots elect to work beyond BLRs on the day in an attempt to complete the flight is outwith the industrial framework that BLRs themselves represent. Indeed, many CC operate into discretion quite frequently which represents work beyond the industrial framework.
Cheers
MrB
Not quite! BA pilots are rostered to Bidline limits which, as with the cabin crew, are our industrial agreement. The same negotiation is required to amend BLRs as would be for the CC industrial flight time limitations to be amended. That some pilots elect to work beyond BLRs on the day in an attempt to complete the flight is outwith the industrial framework that BLRs themselves represent. Indeed, many CC operate into discretion quite frequently which represents work beyond the industrial framework.
Cheers
MrB
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BLR vs Scheme
Morning Litebulbs,
BA flight crew are contractually obliged to work to Bidline Rules, anything above this is goodwill and attracts no extra pay.
'On the Day' the Captain will use his judgement to decide if it is safe to continue to operate beyond BLR's, anything up to the legal limit (whatever that may be, CAP 371 as things stand) taking into account various factors including previous rest and duties of the entire crew (FC & CC).
To reiterate - BA flight crew (and BA cabin crew) are contracted to work to their various agreements only.
My concern is finding ourselves in the position of being compelled to accept changes in our agreements to keep BA competative. The change wouldn't be 'unilateral', it would be with our agreement (because we would have no choice).
IMHO our best chance for maintaining the best T's & C's possible is for BA to be as profitable as possible.
BA flight crew are contractually obliged to work to Bidline Rules, anything above this is goodwill and attracts no extra pay.
'On the Day' the Captain will use his judgement to decide if it is safe to continue to operate beyond BLR's, anything up to the legal limit (whatever that may be, CAP 371 as things stand) taking into account various factors including previous rest and duties of the entire crew (FC & CC).
To reiterate - BA flight crew (and BA cabin crew) are contracted to work to their various agreements only.
My concern is finding ourselves in the position of being compelled to accept changes in our agreements to keep BA competative. The change wouldn't be 'unilateral', it would be with our agreement (because we would have no choice).
IMHO our best chance for maintaining the best T's & C's possible is for BA to be as profitable as possible.
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EASA FTL proposals will never have been on BASSA or Unite's radars. Lets face it, DH, LM & Co can't spell EASA, never mind know whats coming. They are too busy attempting to push their trite and irrelevant agenda.
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Hi Betty Girl,
I'm cetainly no expert on EU legislation however looking at theEASA FAQ's it looks like from the answers from "Does EASA deal with Flight crew Licensing and Flight Time Limitations" and "Why is an EU agency needed to look after aviation safety" it looks like where the JAA was a body to suggest rules and common practice to be adopted by member states EASA is a centralised body to enforce legislation for EU member states.
So in answer to your question I don't believe we or the CAA could opt out.
I'm cetainly no expert on EU legislation however looking at theEASA FAQ's it looks like from the answers from "Does EASA deal with Flight crew Licensing and Flight Time Limitations" and "Why is an EU agency needed to look after aviation safety" it looks like where the JAA was a body to suggest rules and common practice to be adopted by member states EASA is a centralised body to enforce legislation for EU member states.
So in answer to your question I don't believe we or the CAA could opt out.
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EASA
Yes, whatever the final EASA legislation looks like, it will apply to all EU registered airlines - individual nations will not be able to opt out.
Also you're absolutely right when you say
The current CAA CAP371 limits are are based on science & research, the new EASA rules are not.
Also you're absolutely right when you say
I believe that they (CAA) set our current scheme rules, as they are now, for reasons of safety
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BG
IT isn't really relevant whether the CAA follow suit with regard to potential changes in European FTL legislation because the majority of airlines operating into or out of the UK aren't British; in other words we are not only competing with other UK airlines.
Balpa (which is not just BA) , and other pilot organisations are lobbying and petitioning to prevent changes.
These changes have already been implemented in other countries - like Switzerland.
I am extremely surprised you believe Bassa could ever protect you against future change given their demonstrated ineptitude over the last 2 years. And surely you cannot believe for 1 minute that they are preparing a defense of current FTLs to counter EASA proposals!
IT isn't really relevant whether the CAA follow suit with regard to potential changes in European FTL legislation because the majority of airlines operating into or out of the UK aren't British; in other words we are not only competing with other UK airlines.
Balpa (which is not just BA) , and other pilot organisations are lobbying and petitioning to prevent changes.
These changes have already been implemented in other countries - like Switzerland.
I am extremely surprised you believe Bassa could ever protect you against future change given their demonstrated ineptitude over the last 2 years. And surely you cannot believe for 1 minute that they are preparing a defense of current FTLs to counter EASA proposals!
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Thanks for your replies to my question.
I think that all this European legislation is getting out of hand.
It seems that in all areas of our life unelected members of European institutions are interfering and making decisions on all our behalves, not only in aviation!!
Anyway thanks for that info.
I think that all this European legislation is getting out of hand.
It seems that in all areas of our life unelected members of European institutions are interfering and making decisions on all our behalves, not only in aviation!!
Anyway thanks for that info.
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Blu Rib,
As I am not a member of Bassa or Amicus or Unite so I have no way of knowing what they are or are not doing about the EASA proposals.
I never once said Bassa could PROTECT me and in fact I feel Bassa's actions recently have done great damage to the Cabin crew community and more importantly, they have actually weakened themselves by their intransigence during this dispute.
It sounds to me that Bassa's relatively small voice would have little impact on this proposal but then what do I know I am just a niave cabin crew member.
I am of course very pleased to hear that you well informed pilots and your efficient union are making protests about this. Thank you and well done!
As I am not a member of Bassa or Amicus or Unite so I have no way of knowing what they are or are not doing about the EASA proposals.
I never once said Bassa could PROTECT me and in fact I feel Bassa's actions recently have done great damage to the Cabin crew community and more importantly, they have actually weakened themselves by their intransigence during this dispute.
It sounds to me that Bassa's relatively small voice would have little impact on this proposal but then what do I know I am just a niave cabin crew member.
I am of course very pleased to hear that you well informed pilots and your efficient union are making protests about this. Thank you and well done!