BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Dutchjock.
So what?
The majority of club passengers from LHR are travelling on business. I would hazard a guess that from LGW club passengers are on leisure/holiday travel.
One wants a predominantly efficient experience, the other wants a predominantly enjoyable experience. Both attributes are also applicable to each service.
At LHR 1.5 hrs versus 2 hrs equals less work time or less rest time FOR PASSENGERS. It matters. It matters when passengers sit with a dirty tray in their way whilst firing up the lap top, not because the crew are in bed or doing the mail crossword, but because the crew are busy dealing with other passengers who need sleep before startig work at the other end. More crew equals a quicker more efficient service. More crew also equals more cost, I know. There was a trial whereby a crew member was taken from traveller on the Jumbo and placed into club. I don't know the outcome.
One more point. The WW Club service takes closer to 3hrs to complete the main meal.
So what?
The majority of club passengers from LHR are travelling on business. I would hazard a guess that from LGW club passengers are on leisure/holiday travel.
One wants a predominantly efficient experience, the other wants a predominantly enjoyable experience. Both attributes are also applicable to each service.
At LHR 1.5 hrs versus 2 hrs equals less work time or less rest time FOR PASSENGERS. It matters. It matters when passengers sit with a dirty tray in their way whilst firing up the lap top, not because the crew are in bed or doing the mail crossword, but because the crew are busy dealing with other passengers who need sleep before startig work at the other end. More crew equals a quicker more efficient service. More crew also equals more cost, I know. There was a trial whereby a crew member was taken from traveller on the Jumbo and placed into club. I don't know the outcome.
One more point. The WW Club service takes closer to 3hrs to complete the main meal.
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pc767
so how often is support offered from the other cabins when there is a full club load?
Also thats a bit of a presumption regarding the LGW club customer. I haven't been out of LGW for some time, but the business/leisure split looks similar to that at LHR.
Also thats a bit of a presumption regarding the LGW club customer. I haven't been out of LGW for some time, but the business/leisure split looks similar to that at LHR.
Last edited by essessdeedee; 2nd Mar 2011 at 15:35. Reason: sp.
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It is a presumption, but based on destinations, i.e. caribbean, cancun, maldives and soon to be mauritius. Not quite Baltimore, Houston etc. And I suggest that on leisure the club experience is something to be savoured more than if on business. At least thats what I would expect if I had the cash to pay for a club seat to go on holiday. Even BA note that LGW is to be a premium leisure hub according to the latest 'up'.
On all my flights someone from econony is not two assists in club when their service is over. Cannot comment on all BA long haul flights because I cannot physically be there to see. Can you?
On all my flights someone from econony is not two assists in club when their service is over. Cannot comment on all BA long haul flights because I cannot physically be there to see. Can you?
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I have to agree with PC767 about the Club World service. To complete a full service takes, give or take a couple of minutes, three hours without rushing through the service. If you manage to get some assistance from any of the other cabins, which does vary from flight to flight, once they have finished it saves you a couple of minutes. It has nothing to do with getting as much time as possible on the bunks but making it as convenient as possible for our customers.
Club World has become a trying cabin to work in. It's become very difficult to provide a good service routine which actually flows and works efficientely. Before they removed the purser position, no. 7 used to be my preferential choice to work. I opted to work down last year and have worked as no. 7 occassionally and things are not what they once were.
Club World once used to be a very senior cabin. Has anyone else noticed that since imposition it seems as if World Traveller is the most senior cabin and Club World is very junior? I recently worked with a crew member who said he has worked only twice in World Traveller since imposition and the rest in Club World.
Club World has become a trying cabin to work in. It's become very difficult to provide a good service routine which actually flows and works efficientely. Before they removed the purser position, no. 7 used to be my preferential choice to work. I opted to work down last year and have worked as no. 7 occassionally and things are not what they once were.
Club World once used to be a very senior cabin. Has anyone else noticed that since imposition it seems as if World Traveller is the most senior cabin and Club World is very junior? I recently worked with a crew member who said he has worked only twice in World Traveller since imposition and the rest in Club World.
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I have to agree with PC767 about the Club World service. To complete a full service takes, give or take a couple of minutes, three hours without rushing through the service. If you manage to get some assistance from any of the other cabins, which does vary from flight to flight, once they have finished it saves you a couple of minutes. It has nothing to do with getting as much time as possible on the bunks but making it as convenient as possible for our customers.
Why is it more convenient for passengers to have a quick service? Most will have access to the lounges and will hardly be malnourished if they wait a while.
Cessnapete,
I think both you and I know that this is how it should happen. The fact that it doesn't and crew are allowed to pick their positions in seniority order is another example of how CSDs fail to act as managers and simply "go with the flow".
Surely the CSD allocates cabin crew positions to the most suitable crew, taking into account past experience. Not just chosen by the senior crew at check in?
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@cessnapete
I have been with BA for over 13yrs and very, very rarely has a CSD said anything about the working position one chooses. You choose, in seniority order, where you want to work and that's it! That is the reason why lately the most junior crew are left with club...(I, personally, enjoy working in the club cabin anyway
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Cessnapete
Surely the CSD allocates cabin crew positions to the most suitable crew, taking into account past experience. Not just chosen by the senior crew at check in?
Ahhhhhh if only that happened. I'm afraid that once again Bassa/Amicus have 'insisted' over the years that all positions are allocated by seniority. Yes, in theory the CSD can allocate the positions themselves, but in all my years I can say that rarely happens. Only time I did it was when we had a large group of French speaking pax in Club and I 'asked' a French crew member if they wouldn't mind working in Club. On this occasion there was no problem, but I have had other times when this was turned down. Yes, I could have insisted but hey ho I didn't. Yes the power of Bassa was sitting on my shoulder
On the new mixed fleet, the SCCM chooses the crew positions.
A good example of this was back in 2006 when BA wanted 'dedicated' duty free crew on longhaul to get potentially more sales. Bassa put that down as one of the issues for the 2007 strike. Oh yes, the crew has generally always come before the customer on Bassa's watch
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CSD's rarely interfear with the working positions in my experience. I have a vague memory about some years ago when a temporary crew and a crew member from EF who had recently come over to WW were left with numbers 11 and 12. The CSD said he wanted at least one crew member with a bit more experience on the upper deck but he had a bit of a problem getting anyone to volunteer.
Choosing your working position by seniority is good when you are senior enough and one of the first to choose but a nightmare when you are at the bottom of the list for years. I wouldn't mind if the CSD allocated the working positions in briefing, or if they were allocated automatically by a computer which would ensure a "fair share" of every working position. It would also avoid crew members working in the same cabin for years having no idea what's happening in the other cabins behind the curtains. Not too long ago I had a crew member called out from QRS and left with a working position in Club World. She had no idea what she was doing as she hadn't been working in Club World for years.
Choosing your working position by seniority is good when you are senior enough and one of the first to choose but a nightmare when you are at the bottom of the list for years. I wouldn't mind if the CSD allocated the working positions in briefing, or if they were allocated automatically by a computer which would ensure a "fair share" of every working position. It would also avoid crew members working in the same cabin for years having no idea what's happening in the other cabins behind the curtains. Not too long ago I had a crew member called out from QRS and left with a working position in Club World. She had no idea what she was doing as she hadn't been working in Club World for years.
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Interestingly it takes 3 hours to complete Club service ex-LHR and that's accepted as just being a function of the complicated procedures, but when Mixed Fleet take 3 hours to finish the Club service they are roundly condemned by the militants who see it as a sign of incompetence.
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Actually that was when the service was taking 4.5hrs plus. And they were not incompetent, just lacking experience. Not the best service for our passengers when over half the flight is taken with just one service. I'm sure they will improve.
It is worth noting that it has been well over 5 years since anyone was recruited directly to long haul on a permanent basis. Junior crew are hardly new. A few temps still around on contrcat No 3, and tranferees have a good 5 years plus in BA. So 'junior' crew on long haul are not new crew. Not really a scenario where the CSD lacks experience in the cabins and therefore needs to allocate positions.
Just a thought, if the service takes 3 hours then that is what it takes, not a problem. But alot of passengers are travelling alone and if not are seated independantly and thus treated as an individual. In that context is it really acceptable for a three course meal to take three hours? An hour a course. In a restaurant or at a dinner party this would be the norm because people would be interacting with each other, chatting etc. Not what happens onboard for alot of our passengers. Anyhow just a thought.
It is worth noting that it has been well over 5 years since anyone was recruited directly to long haul on a permanent basis. Junior crew are hardly new. A few temps still around on contrcat No 3, and tranferees have a good 5 years plus in BA. So 'junior' crew on long haul are not new crew. Not really a scenario where the CSD lacks experience in the cabins and therefore needs to allocate positions.
Just a thought, if the service takes 3 hours then that is what it takes, not a problem. But alot of passengers are travelling alone and if not are seated independantly and thus treated as an individual. In that context is it really acceptable for a three course meal to take three hours? An hour a course. In a restaurant or at a dinner party this would be the norm because people would be interacting with each other, chatting etc. Not what happens onboard for alot of our passengers. Anyhow just a thought.
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It's quite interesting that the length of the CW service is being debated. Remember, BA listens intently to our customers. We care passionately about what they think. And if they were telling us that the service takes too long then something would be changed. And it hasn't been.
This 3 hours that we are talking about.... is that from take off to first break, or from the first drink delivery to the last coffee cup coming back in?
This 3 hours that we are talking about.... is that from take off to first break, or from the first drink delivery to the last coffee cup coming back in?
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I've flown in Club with Mixed Fleet quite recently and the service took 3 hours. I noted that it seemed slow but that seems to be about standard. It certainly wasn't 4.5 hours. That was 3 hours from wheels up to last coffee cup. Whilst that's acceptable on a daytime flight I found it annoying on the night return sector when I just wanted to get some sleep.
One thing I did find refreshing as a staff passenger was that the crew were genuinely friendly on both sectors and I didn't feel I was part of the usual staff travel lottery of whether you'll get a decent crew or a bunch of miserablists who want to make your day unpleasant.
One thing I did find refreshing as a staff passenger was that the crew were genuinely friendly on both sectors and I didn't feel I was part of the usual staff travel lottery of whether you'll get a decent crew or a bunch of miserablists who want to make your day unpleasant.
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PC767
I take your point. I agree 3 hours to get your meal out of the way if you want to sleep is too long. In an ideal world you would have your colleagues who are done with there bit to come and help you, maybe a managing task for the CSD?
Having said that I hardly ever experience the service taking longer than 2 hrs. Does that mean the crew are not doing it properly? I'll try to be more aware out of interest. It's easy to not be aware of what's going on at the other side of the door
I take your point. I agree 3 hours to get your meal out of the way if you want to sleep is too long. In an ideal world you would have your colleagues who are done with there bit to come and help you, maybe a managing task for the CSD?
Having said that I hardly ever experience the service taking longer than 2 hrs. Does that mean the crew are not doing it properly? I'll try to be more aware out of interest. It's easy to not be aware of what's going on at the other side of the door
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We seem to be going pretty off track so I'll be short... 3 hours from wheels up to last coffee is acceptable to me as a frequent flyer. Doesn't matter if I'm on business or leisure.
When it took 3 hours to just get to my main course on a recent Emirates (A380) business flight I DID complain to the airline as that is too long. The 'don't really care' response from their customer service dept will mean I avoid them in the future.
The service I had on ORD-LHR BA Club flight 2 weeks ago was good. The quality of the product on offer has certainly reduced drastically (apart from the seats) when compared to 10-20 years ago, but the cabin crew (see getting back on topic!) were friendly and efficient. Long may that continue...
When it took 3 hours to just get to my main course on a recent Emirates (A380) business flight I DID complain to the airline as that is too long. The 'don't really care' response from their customer service dept will mean I avoid them in the future.
The service I had on ORD-LHR BA Club flight 2 weeks ago was good. The quality of the product on offer has certainly reduced drastically (apart from the seats) when compared to 10-20 years ago, but the cabin crew (see getting back on topic!) were friendly and efficient. Long may that continue...
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The length of the service can depend on many different factors. ie. time of day, daylight or night time and number of passengers. A half full cabin will be much faster that a full cabin!!
The club service on Worldwide is not good at the moment. The main meal is squashed and unappetizing ( the E/F club meals look far nicer) and the wine list is a joke. When I travelled as a passenger recently I was given the wine list and automatically wanted the wine I had just been told was not available today!! It's human nature!!
In the past the club tray and presentation has been a lot better and I am sure BA have received feedback from both our crews and our passengers about this. It takes time and a lot of investment to change a whole service completely and I am sure this will come about with our new department leader. It does always seem that our cabin service product often changes when a new head comes in.
Obviously the current Worldwide crew will be faster than our new Mixed Fleet crew, this is obvious because they are more experienced at present but I am sure that Mixed Fleet will catch up as they get used to this messy service. I am sure both sets of crew work to give our passengers a good service.
It is very easy for people to post unkind remarks on this forum about other departments and often they are untrue and not born up by the facts.
At the moment Worldwide cabin crew have the highest customer satisfaction scores in the premium cabins. For the month of December our Worldwide crew got a score of 92% of our premium passengers rated them exceptionally or very good. This was a higher score than both E/F and Mixed Fleet crews got. These figures are posted on the walls of the communication room, next to the CRC coffee shop for all of you to read.
Please can we deal with facts and not how you imagine our cabin crew perform. It is easy to take a dislike to a set of people and imagine that they may therefore not give good customer service but this is not born out by the actual facts sometimes.
Thanks C7xlg for that balanced view.
These are my own views and not those of my employer BA.
The club service on Worldwide is not good at the moment. The main meal is squashed and unappetizing ( the E/F club meals look far nicer) and the wine list is a joke. When I travelled as a passenger recently I was given the wine list and automatically wanted the wine I had just been told was not available today!! It's human nature!!
In the past the club tray and presentation has been a lot better and I am sure BA have received feedback from both our crews and our passengers about this. It takes time and a lot of investment to change a whole service completely and I am sure this will come about with our new department leader. It does always seem that our cabin service product often changes when a new head comes in.
Obviously the current Worldwide crew will be faster than our new Mixed Fleet crew, this is obvious because they are more experienced at present but I am sure that Mixed Fleet will catch up as they get used to this messy service. I am sure both sets of crew work to give our passengers a good service.
It is very easy for people to post unkind remarks on this forum about other departments and often they are untrue and not born up by the facts.
At the moment Worldwide cabin crew have the highest customer satisfaction scores in the premium cabins. For the month of December our Worldwide crew got a score of 92% of our premium passengers rated them exceptionally or very good. This was a higher score than both E/F and Mixed Fleet crews got. These figures are posted on the walls of the communication room, next to the CRC coffee shop for all of you to read.
Please can we deal with facts and not how you imagine our cabin crew perform. It is easy to take a dislike to a set of people and imagine that they may therefore not give good customer service but this is not born out by the actual facts sometimes.
Thanks C7xlg for that balanced view.
These are my own views and not those of my employer BA.
Juan Tripp
Can't see the problem! BA Management set the cabin service standards/routines reqired, not the Unions.
A simple notice requireing CSM/CSD to allocate cabin positions at check in according to need/experience.
A simple notice requireing CSM/CSD to allocate cabin positions at check in according to need/experience.
A simple notice requireing CSM/CSD to allocate cabin positions at check in according to need/experience
The link to the current dispute is tenuous but it does show that the older, more experienced crew feel that it doesn't matter what the regulations say (JPMs) or management (in this case their immediate supervisor), they are untouchable and will do it there way. This is why we are where we are.