BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: france
Age: 62
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unite fob off
Ok so I've called Unite HQ and after being on hold for about 20 minutes I was told that as I'm the only one that has asked for these accounts it will take 2-3 weeks to organise.
They have to contact BASSA as they don't have the info to hand.
If there are any other Unite members or ex members can you please call Unite HQ tel 0118 907 0715 or 0845 605 2193.
I get the feeling they are a bit taken aback by my request.
ps 123 thanks for the warning. As I say I'm not (yet) suggesting that anything's wrong just that it seems disorganised and haphazard. Not what I expect from a professional union.
They have to contact BASSA as they don't have the info to hand.
If there are any other Unite members or ex members can you please call Unite HQ tel 0118 907 0715 or 0845 605 2193.
I get the feeling they are a bit taken aback by my request.
ps 123 thanks for the warning. As I say I'm not (yet) suggesting that anything's wrong just that it seems disorganised and haphazard. Not what I expect from a professional union.
HiFlyer14
Your link is for the accounts of Unite. I think it is the (lack of?) accounts for BASSA that is raising questions.
The Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, Section 30 (1), also makes reference to "records relating to a branch or section of the union". Where are the BASSA accounts? For them to have been incorporated in to any Annual Return submitted by Unite, there should have been a complete set of audited accounts produced by BASSA ......shouldn't there? Therein lies the problem.
Money, serious money, has been spread about BASSA, and the law requires it to be properly accounted for. The sudden formation of BASSA Ltd, with a registered address at a small accounting firm in Eastleigh, Hampshire is likely an attempt for BASSA to get it's accounting on the correct side of the law. But that doesn't mean they can get away with several years of bypassing the law, does it?
So, once more, it is up to the current and former BASSA membership to be asking important questions of BASSA - where are the verified BASSA accounts for previous years? They have 28 days to allow access. Can BASSA produce such accounts? Go and find out, people, find out! It was your money, after all!
Noonday Gunn
The point is, BASSA should have already provided it's membership with access to it's accounts, each and every year. There should be no need for anyone to go searching 2 or 3 weeks for this info. The law requires that it should have already been collated, audited, and published. Ask the committee some hard questions!
The accounts for any trade union are a matter of public interest, and can therefore be viewed on the Certification Office website. The most recent accounts for Unite, 2009, can be found Certification Officer - Existing Trade Unions
The Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, Section 30 (1), also makes reference to "records relating to a branch or section of the union". Where are the BASSA accounts? For them to have been incorporated in to any Annual Return submitted by Unite, there should have been a complete set of audited accounts produced by BASSA ......shouldn't there? Therein lies the problem.
Money, serious money, has been spread about BASSA, and the law requires it to be properly accounted for. The sudden formation of BASSA Ltd, with a registered address at a small accounting firm in Eastleigh, Hampshire is likely an attempt for BASSA to get it's accounting on the correct side of the law. But that doesn't mean they can get away with several years of bypassing the law, does it?
So, once more, it is up to the current and former BASSA membership to be asking important questions of BASSA - where are the verified BASSA accounts for previous years? They have 28 days to allow access. Can BASSA produce such accounts? Go and find out, people, find out! It was your money, after all!
Noonday Gunn
I'm sure there is nothing fishy going on and that all of the money paid in good faith by past and present BASSA members is all accounted for. I'm sure that the BASSA executive will put all of these unsavoury questions to bed by publishing the accounts in accordance with the rules.
Last edited by MrBernoulli; 15th Feb 2011 at 10:23.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: france
Age: 62
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is confusing me is how are the daily expenses of repping paid? I mean there must be day to day expenses incurred surely. Money to travel to and from meetings, flights, meals, stationary, telephone calls made to members etc, hotel rooms, internet access etc etc.
I know reps get an "office duties" payment of £100 per day but that must be net of the expenses claimed above. So what account does that come from? Petty cash?! Who oversees all this and how are these monies audited and tracked? How much has each rep got in "office duties" payment each year? Do Holley, Everard and Marcus still get these payments and if so why? Not unreasonable questions surely?
We may be trolley dollies to some but that doesn't mean we're stupid. I have an O level in book keeping for starters. Please tell me I'm not the only one outraged by this!
Off to work so won't be on for a while. PLEASE look into this people.
I know reps get an "office duties" payment of £100 per day but that must be net of the expenses claimed above. So what account does that come from? Petty cash?! Who oversees all this and how are these monies audited and tracked? How much has each rep got in "office duties" payment each year? Do Holley, Everard and Marcus still get these payments and if so why? Not unreasonable questions surely?
We may be trolley dollies to some but that doesn't mean we're stupid. I have an O level in book keeping for starters. Please tell me I'm not the only one outraged by this!
Off to work so won't be on for a while. PLEASE look into this people.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The 3 Valleys
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some long time ago - more than 12 months -, somebody predicted that DH would end up in court, although they were talking about in connection with membership numbers at the time.
I think they may well have been right about the court but perhaps in relationship to the accounts ?
I think they may well have been right about the court but perhaps in relationship to the accounts ?
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: London
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First and last post....
I've been reading this debacle for the last 12 months...
The strike personally affected me as we were going on honeymoon in March 2010...
That said we got away and we're indebted to those indivduals who stepped up and stepped in... thank-you.
So, a small tip in return regarding the whereabouts of the Bassa Accounts;
Unite and Bassa are financially linked...
Unite are subject to a compulsory annual audit...
Unite by law must readily identify and support with documentation all significant income and expenses with regard to Bassa...
The auditors must conduct their audit (over several weeks) and follow very prescribed rules and regulations including substantive testing of the numbers.
So......
If you want to give the hornets nest a stir again, drop an "FYI" email to the Auditor Partner at whichever accounting practice(s) conducted the audit (it'll be on the Unite website)
Advise them you have asked Unite/Bassa for audited information that you are entitled to (per Mr Bernoulli's earlier post) for the period 2009 (or which ever year you choose) however you are encountering significant delays in receiving this information....and could they possibly help supply the same information.
In all probablilty they will redirect you back to Unite - however your email will without doubt instigate a call from the Audit Partner straight to Len himself.
Why?
Firstly it has to be Len, as he has overall responsbility for Unite and that is to whom the Audit Partner must speak...that's the law, Len has fidicuary duties.
And?...
Well, any delay from Unite supplying the requested information will cast an immediate shadow over the capability and intergity of the accounting practice and their audit and that is something they can not entertain.
For the audit partner it opens up a whole world of pain, investigations and fines if their clients are witholding / delaying /misfeeding you information -the same information his practice has seen, audited and signed off on months/years ago..
Expect results and answers within the week.
All the very best,
A fan of BA for many years (and a Chartered Accountant).
I've been reading this debacle for the last 12 months...
The strike personally affected me as we were going on honeymoon in March 2010...
That said we got away and we're indebted to those indivduals who stepped up and stepped in... thank-you.
So, a small tip in return regarding the whereabouts of the Bassa Accounts;
Unite and Bassa are financially linked...
Unite are subject to a compulsory annual audit...
Unite by law must readily identify and support with documentation all significant income and expenses with regard to Bassa...
The auditors must conduct their audit (over several weeks) and follow very prescribed rules and regulations including substantive testing of the numbers.
So......
If you want to give the hornets nest a stir again, drop an "FYI" email to the Auditor Partner at whichever accounting practice(s) conducted the audit (it'll be on the Unite website)
Advise them you have asked Unite/Bassa for audited information that you are entitled to (per Mr Bernoulli's earlier post) for the period 2009 (or which ever year you choose) however you are encountering significant delays in receiving this information....and could they possibly help supply the same information.
In all probablilty they will redirect you back to Unite - however your email will without doubt instigate a call from the Audit Partner straight to Len himself.
Why?
Firstly it has to be Len, as he has overall responsbility for Unite and that is to whom the Audit Partner must speak...that's the law, Len has fidicuary duties.
And?...
Well, any delay from Unite supplying the requested information will cast an immediate shadow over the capability and intergity of the accounting practice and their audit and that is something they can not entertain.
For the audit partner it opens up a whole world of pain, investigations and fines if their clients are witholding / delaying /misfeeding you information -the same information his practice has seen, audited and signed off on months/years ago..
Expect results and answers within the week.
All the very best,
A fan of BA for many years (and a Chartered Accountant).
Summerishere
....but an eloquent one, and thanks for your input.
You provide some interesting background detail from an accountants point of view. Nevertheless, however "linked" Unite and BASSA might be, it is becoming obvious that BASSA is very reluctant to provide the required detail, with personal experience of that shown by some posters here! Quite why Unite would need the weeks, as claimed, to find the accounts that should be readily to hand is symptomatic of an underlying 'illness' in that trade union, and it's BASSA branch.
That 'illness' is obfuscation, probably invoked to cover up dishonesty. You never get a straight answer from Unite or BASSA - Len's recent radio performances have been abysmal, in that respect! Whilst Unite's accounts may have been returned, I am not convinced that any accounts for BASSA could pass close inspection.
The hierarchy at BASSA have been so thoroughly and overtly dishonest in many aspects of their 'performance', that it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to believe that their handling of membership funds might be similarly tainted. We shall see ..........
I hope that BA can retain that loyalty!
First and last post....
You provide some interesting background detail from an accountants point of view. Nevertheless, however "linked" Unite and BASSA might be, it is becoming obvious that BASSA is very reluctant to provide the required detail, with personal experience of that shown by some posters here! Quite why Unite would need the weeks, as claimed, to find the accounts that should be readily to hand is symptomatic of an underlying 'illness' in that trade union, and it's BASSA branch.
That 'illness' is obfuscation, probably invoked to cover up dishonesty. You never get a straight answer from Unite or BASSA - Len's recent radio performances have been abysmal, in that respect! Whilst Unite's accounts may have been returned, I am not convinced that any accounts for BASSA could pass close inspection.
The hierarchy at BASSA have been so thoroughly and overtly dishonest in many aspects of their 'performance', that it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to believe that their handling of membership funds might be similarly tainted. We shall see ..........
A fan of BA for many years
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: motorway services
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure that all will eventually be found to be in order, after all, this dispute is in the public eye, and those prominent individuals involved will be squeaky clean, no?
As an aside, if anyone knows that someone is evading UK tax and it bothers them, they can go to HM Revenue & Customs: Reporting Tax Evasion and report it anonymously.
As an aside, if anyone knows that someone is evading UK tax and it bothers them, they can go to HM Revenue & Customs: Reporting Tax Evasion and report it anonymously.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that the period within which the union had to produce the accounts when in receipt of a request from a member was 28 days. The union then has 28 days to produce said documents - such is the law. They may well have these things easily to hand, they may not. That is not really relevant, even if they are easily available they are under no obligation, legal or moral, to produce these documents in period less than 28 days. No inference be drawn from them taking the full 28 days to produce these documents.
I despise the cancer that is BASSA, but they have the right to the 28 days. If there is something dodgy going on, doubtless all will be revealed but in due course. However, it is quite possible that the books have been kept immaculately and all is above board. Either way, the union would still be entitled to the full 28 days if they wish it.
I despise the cancer that is BASSA, but they have the right to the 28 days. If there is something dodgy going on, doubtless all will be revealed but in due course. However, it is quite possible that the books have been kept immaculately and all is above board. Either way, the union would still be entitled to the full 28 days if they wish it.
Either way, the union would still be entitled to the full 28 days if they wish it.
"we're too busy" and come back to us at a more convenient time when we're not in a dispute.
No polite mention of 'We'll do so within 28 days', no, just a brush off that clearly implies BASSA have no wish to let a mere pleb see any accounts. And then there is an approach to Unite:".. after being on hold for about 20 minutes I was told that as I'm the only one that has asked for these accounts it will take 2-3 weeks to organise. They have to contact BASSA as they don't have the info to hand."
Pathetic response! So if only one person asks we'll stretch it out to 2 or 3 weeks? How is one person enquiring less deserving of, say, 5 people enquiring? Another brush off!If BASSA has complied completely with the requirements of Section 32A:
Section 32A requires that the union also provide the full details of that annual return, within 8 weeks of it being sent to the Certification Officer, to all of it's members!
You're missing the point. 
BASSA and Unite should have these accounts at easy grasp because the submitting of Annual Returns means the accounts should already exist, in easily digestible form. Whats more both Unite and BASSA should have made them already available to their members e.g. on a website. BASSA clearly haven't done that, because no-one can recall ever seeing them!
Consequently, law aside, there seems to be an ulterior motive in fobbing off perfectly reasonable requests to see the accounts!
BASSA and Unite should have these accounts at easy grasp because the submitting of Annual Returns means the accounts should already exist, in easily digestible form. Whats more both Unite and BASSA should have made them already available to their members e.g. on a website. BASSA clearly haven't done that, because no-one can recall ever seeing them!
Consequently, law aside, there seems to be an ulterior motive in fobbing off perfectly reasonable requests to see the accounts!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: LAM/BIG/BNN hold
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is sad BASSA members are still following a terrible leadership who have nothing to do with BA, except a vendetta. It is sad that cabin crew are now alienated from almost all sections of BA and they may not realise it.
the baggage tags, yellow pens, XXXX on your handbags, BASSA lanyards and constant digs at BA make you even more disliked. This dispute has gone on for too long and is damaging to BA and all that work for the company (c.25000 careers). If you are not bothered about that many people then 'shame on you'
please, those that come to work and are not 100% for BA sort yourselves out or leave. This has gone on for far too long and BA will not back down - you will only hasten the new Mixed fleet routes to Asia, Oslo and Switzerland and you will have lost a chunk of allowances
the baggage tags, yellow pens, XXXX on your handbags, BASSA lanyards and constant digs at BA make you even more disliked. This dispute has gone on for too long and is damaging to BA and all that work for the company (c.25000 careers). If you are not bothered about that many people then 'shame on you'
please, those that come to work and are not 100% for BA sort yourselves out or leave. This has gone on for far too long and BA will not back down - you will only hasten the new Mixed fleet routes to Asia, Oslo and Switzerland and you will have lost a chunk of allowances
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: N51°20. W000°35
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is sad BASSA members are still following a terrible leadership who have nothing to do with BA, except a vendetta. It is sad that cabin crew are now alienated from almost all sections of BA and they may not realise it.
Who are the majority (albeit of a minority) of BASSA followers here? Are they simply indoctrinated by the hard line few? Do these people simply think they should be immune from change, are they unaware of the economic society or ignorant of it?
I'm baffled by the mindset here, totally confused!
Those of us who have 'gone the extra mile' for BA are all confused.
I am sure that bassa have some genuine issues, but their complete reluctance and inability to negotiate has brought them to the present.
It is completely unbelieveable that so many bassa members have been hoodwinked / failed / lied-to / marginalised etc by the total delusions have egomaniacs like dh........
I am sure that bassa have some genuine issues, but their complete reluctance and inability to negotiate has brought them to the present.
It is completely unbelieveable that so many bassa members have been hoodwinked / failed / lied-to / marginalised etc by the total delusions have egomaniacs like dh........
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.
Repeat of previously stated:
This thread is primarily for BA CC to discuss their current industrial relations.
It is NOT a venue for trench warfare with other websites.
You are all most welcome to discuss points raised here by yourselves or others, or facts and opinions published in the public media.
Discussions about, and quotes of, specific posts and comments made on closed, private websites are pointless, since there is no possibility of a meaningful exchange. Taunting, jeering and jibes are not PPRuNe material.
All such discussions and quotes have been and are being removed on an ongoing basis.
Keep it in mind please.
________________________________
flapsforty
Member of the PPRuNe moderating team
Repeat of previously stated:
This thread is primarily for BA CC to discuss their current industrial relations.
It is NOT a venue for trench warfare with other websites.
You are all most welcome to discuss points raised here by yourselves or others, or facts and opinions published in the public media.
Discussions about, and quotes of, specific posts and comments made on closed, private websites are pointless, since there is no possibility of a meaningful exchange. Taunting, jeering and jibes are not PPRuNe material.
All such discussions and quotes have been and are being removed on an ongoing basis.
Keep it in mind please.
________________________________
flapsforty
Member of the PPRuNe moderating team
No, the penny is not dropping. Despite everything that has happened and been said and done over the last 2 years, thousands of people still supported BASSA and the branch Sec by voting for strike.
BASSA have been very good about turning this into a personality led dispute. It is nothing of the sort. It is about the deal and the future - that's all. There has been too much of DH and LM on here. They are a side issue. The main fact I have to face is that, every time I fly, I know that the majority of CC on my aircraft are still voting to strike and potentially fatally damage the company.
BASSA have been very good about turning this into a personality led dispute. It is nothing of the sort. It is about the deal and the future - that's all. There has been too much of DH and LM on here. They are a side issue. The main fact I have to face is that, every time I fly, I know that the majority of CC on my aircraft are still voting to strike and potentially fatally damage the company.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flaps62,
You're right but, equally, I'd argue, not quite. I wish DH and LM were a side issue but, like it or not, they are at the very heart of this and that, to me, is part of the problem. It's long since gone beyond a calm, rational assessment of the situation at hand and degenerated into an extremely personalised campaign of vitriol, be it the eulogising of DH and the "SAS", or the vilification of the CEO and the flight crew. That most striking crew now accept the change in crewing levels yet still feel that a strike is warranted is, to my mind, testament to that fact and it's thoroughly, heart-achingly disappointing.
MrB
You're right but, equally, I'd argue, not quite. I wish DH and LM were a side issue but, like it or not, they are at the very heart of this and that, to me, is part of the problem. It's long since gone beyond a calm, rational assessment of the situation at hand and degenerated into an extremely personalised campaign of vitriol, be it the eulogising of DH and the "SAS", or the vilification of the CEO and the flight crew. That most striking crew now accept the change in crewing levels yet still feel that a strike is warranted is, to my mind, testament to that fact and it's thoroughly, heart-achingly disappointing.
MrB