BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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MissM - I'm keen to avoid the all-too-frequent ganging up on supporters of one side of this dispute - but...
Why should you have control of MF? You, me and all the rest of our colleagues are merely salaried employees of BA, a commercial company run on behalf of the shareholders by the Board.
Historically, BA have gone beyond their statutory (and moral) duties in including our representatives in discussions and decisions taken to improve the business, and we have all reaped the benefits over the years.
However, we have no 'right' to control anything. If it is beneficial to BA to discuss things with us (and it usually is - happy, involved staff are more productive than miserable, excluded staff) then they will. If it is not beneficial from a purely commercial viewpoint, then they do not need to discuss. They are never going to 'guarantee' anything anymore - least of all control of commercial decisions to a staff group.
We want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet which BA is not willing to provide us. They are willing to 'discuss' route transfers and such with us but nothing else. Discuss means nothing
Historically, BA have gone beyond their statutory (and moral) duties in including our representatives in discussions and decisions taken to improve the business, and we have all reaped the benefits over the years.
However, we have no 'right' to control anything. If it is beneficial to BA to discuss things with us (and it usually is - happy, involved staff are more productive than miserable, excluded staff) then they will. If it is not beneficial from a purely commercial viewpoint, then they do not need to discuss. They are never going to 'guarantee' anything anymore - least of all control of commercial decisions to a staff group.
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Miss M
You say that you did not strike because you can see what is happening. Here's a question to you. Could it be that you did not strike because you relied on others to do it for you?
Everyone who crossed the picket line is responsible for Mixed Fleet. Don't ever believe that you did yourself, or this company, a favour for not going on strike. It was a short-sighted, and may I dare say selfish, decision of you.
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Betty Girl
Management should be held responsible over what you are mentioning what this strike has caused. A full strike with very few crew crossing the picket line would have caused a huge chaos and I don't think WW would have ridden it out.
BA would have gone ahead with Mixed Fleet either way. Temporarily it might have been integrated with existing fleets but be rest assured that sooner or later they would have introduced a separate fleet. Remember this document regarding OC? They have been planning a new fleet for many years and why should they throw it out the window? Why cause a massive concern amongst IFCE for nothing? The document included that promotion and recruitment on existing fleets would seize. It also stated that they wanted the new fleet to look as attractive as possible to encourage secondment and transfers. As it is today, they don't want any of us on their new fleet because they don't want it to be contaminated. This is the sort of management we are dealing with and their actual view of us. Charming, hey? I have around 30 years left until retirement should I retire at the age of 65. Mixed Fleet will grow accordingly to natural wastage from existing fleets according to BA. That should be interesting to see.
Tiramisu
Should you ever again quote what I have said in the future, please do it correctly. I said that we want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet. Surely it should be a concern of yours that you want to make sure that aircraft and destinations are transferred fairly, especially as your pay deal is only for three years. If most lucrative destinations have been transferred by then you can be rest assured that your future pay deal will be a lot lower.
Ranger07
BASSA are not flawless. They have made mistakes. However, as I have to choose between our management and our union, the decision is easy.
52049er
Because if we don't have any control of Mixed Fleet we are going to lose a huge amount of pay as the most lucrative destinations would go over. Unfortunately staff on the ground don't understand this. Neither do our pilots. Maybe they will understand what we are fighting for should BA ever begin registering its aircraft in Spain.
Management should be held responsible over what you are mentioning what this strike has caused. A full strike with very few crew crossing the picket line would have caused a huge chaos and I don't think WW would have ridden it out.
BA would have gone ahead with Mixed Fleet either way. Temporarily it might have been integrated with existing fleets but be rest assured that sooner or later they would have introduced a separate fleet. Remember this document regarding OC? They have been planning a new fleet for many years and why should they throw it out the window? Why cause a massive concern amongst IFCE for nothing? The document included that promotion and recruitment on existing fleets would seize. It also stated that they wanted the new fleet to look as attractive as possible to encourage secondment and transfers. As it is today, they don't want any of us on their new fleet because they don't want it to be contaminated. This is the sort of management we are dealing with and their actual view of us. Charming, hey? I have around 30 years left until retirement should I retire at the age of 65. Mixed Fleet will grow accordingly to natural wastage from existing fleets according to BA. That should be interesting to see.
Tiramisu
Should you ever again quote what I have said in the future, please do it correctly. I said that we want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet. Surely it should be a concern of yours that you want to make sure that aircraft and destinations are transferred fairly, especially as your pay deal is only for three years. If most lucrative destinations have been transferred by then you can be rest assured that your future pay deal will be a lot lower.
Ranger07
BASSA are not flawless. They have made mistakes. However, as I have to choose between our management and our union, the decision is easy.
52049er
Because if we don't have any control of Mixed Fleet we are going to lose a huge amount of pay as the most lucrative destinations would go over. Unfortunately staff on the ground don't understand this. Neither do our pilots. Maybe they will understand what we are fighting for should BA ever begin registering its aircraft in Spain.
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Let us not be in any doubt that the strike had nothing to do with stopping the New Fleet at LHR. If you refer back to the Unite The Way Forward Summary of Formal Offer Dated 10th March 2010, it states;
5. MFH- There will be a new separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and sole bargining rights for Unite. Alongside the introdution of this fleet British Airways has confirmed the following ongoing commitments to their current crew.
It then goes on to talk about Monthly travel payment, route access, new aircraft etc.
So for all those people who said they went on strike to stop New Fleet, you didn't. It formed part of your own Unions proposal to the company. Infact under Unites offer it would have grown more quickly as they wanted at that point to put a crew member back on theWW and EF aircraft.
I have been constantly shocked at the number of people who were prepared to go on strike without knowing what was contained in the Offer made to BA by Unite.
I left Unite in June, I will rejoin when they get their house in order, as I believe that union representation is important. Unfortunately BASSA are not representing their members interests. If I had gone on strike I would be very angry that 4 months since the end of the last strike an agreement seems no closer!
5. MFH- There will be a new separate mixed flying fleet for new crew, with separate terms and conditions and sole bargining rights for Unite. Alongside the introdution of this fleet British Airways has confirmed the following ongoing commitments to their current crew.
It then goes on to talk about Monthly travel payment, route access, new aircraft etc.
So for all those people who said they went on strike to stop New Fleet, you didn't. It formed part of your own Unions proposal to the company. Infact under Unites offer it would have grown more quickly as they wanted at that point to put a crew member back on theWW and EF aircraft.
I have been constantly shocked at the number of people who were prepared to go on strike without knowing what was contained in the Offer made to BA by Unite.
I left Unite in June, I will rejoin when they get their house in order, as I believe that union representation is important. Unfortunately BASSA are not representing their members interests. If I had gone on strike I would be very angry that 4 months since the end of the last strike an agreement seems no closer!
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we are going to lose a huge amount of pay as the most lucrative destinations would go over. Unfortunately staff on the ground don't understand this. Neither do our pilots.
So you now find your finances heavily dependent on going to destinations you have no contractual right to serve, and have accelerated the employment of CC who are way cheaper than you.
I think I understand.
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Miss M
Pilots won't be worried if BA aircraft are registered in Spain, France, Italy or wherever. As I'm sure you know, under JAR, (and EASA from 2012). a pilot licenced to fly an aircraft in the UK can fly one registered in any other european country.
Despite the desperate hopes from some on CF (XX still?) there will be no cruise pilots, no Mixed fleet for pilots etc, those being recruited for next year will enjoy exactly the same Ts and Cs and Bidline benefits that current pilots enjoy.
That's what happens when a union engages with the company.
Pilots won't be worried if BA aircraft are registered in Spain, France, Italy or wherever. As I'm sure you know, under JAR, (and EASA from 2012). a pilot licenced to fly an aircraft in the UK can fly one registered in any other european country.
Despite the desperate hopes from some on CF (XX still?) there will be no cruise pilots, no Mixed fleet for pilots etc, those being recruited for next year will enjoy exactly the same Ts and Cs and Bidline benefits that current pilots enjoy.
That's what happens when a union engages with the company.
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The Flying Nunn
Do you really have to ask this question again? I was asked it only a couple of days ago. Why did I go on strike? Because of imposition! Not due to the practical fact that crewing levels were changed but because they were changed without any negotiation.
Fly73
BA will go ahead with Mixed Fleet whether we like it or not. BASSA have included it in their proposals because they understand there's no stopping. What BASSA can and have been trying to do is to negotiate so that WE receive protection from Mixed Fleet.
Do you really have to ask this question again? I was asked it only a couple of days ago. Why did I go on strike? Because of imposition! Not due to the practical fact that crewing levels were changed but because they were changed without any negotiation.
Fly73
BA will go ahead with Mixed Fleet whether we like it or not. BASSA have included it in their proposals because they understand there's no stopping. What BASSA can and have been trying to do is to negotiate so that WE receive protection from Mixed Fleet.
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BA have never said they don't want Mixed Fleet contaminated, that comes from the mouths of others. I know of quite a few that have chosen to go to Mixed Fleet and some have taken pay cuts to go over. I personally would not want to go over but no one is making me.
BA has said anyone can move but they have to go over on the terms and conditions of Mixed Fleet and they want those people to want to be there. They have said, time and time again, that no one will be forced to go over. You have just swallowed all the scare mongering of Bassa.
No one is happy with the development of mixed fleet and and I do feel the starting salary is too low. However it is Bassa's refusal to negotiate that has made it all worse. It has got nothing to do with the huge number of us that could see you were waisting your time striking with someone like Willie Walsh in charge. It is a complete fallacy that we went to work to keep our staff travel, or were happy for others to strike for us or we did not want to lose pay. The reason that the vast majority of us worked was because we did not agree that striking was the way to get a settlement and we have been proved right.
BA has said anyone can move but they have to go over on the terms and conditions of Mixed Fleet and they want those people to want to be there. They have said, time and time again, that no one will be forced to go over. You have just swallowed all the scare mongering of Bassa.
No one is happy with the development of mixed fleet and and I do feel the starting salary is too low. However it is Bassa's refusal to negotiate that has made it all worse. It has got nothing to do with the huge number of us that could see you were waisting your time striking with someone like Willie Walsh in charge. It is a complete fallacy that we went to work to keep our staff travel, or were happy for others to strike for us or we did not want to lose pay. The reason that the vast majority of us worked was because we did not agree that striking was the way to get a settlement and we have been proved right.
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Miss M
Are you completely delusional, totally brain washed by your dysfunctional union, that now decides to even forsake its members playing the "X" game on their website?
When are misguided crew like yourself going to wake up and see that you are being led blindly under false promises like "oh don’t worry we will get you your staff travel back (yeah right dream on!) Rhetoric, and understand that the company you work for presently has/is moving on and YOU are being left behind!
Time to grow up and face up!
oh and while you are at it, just think to yourself "WHY, did I go on strike!"
worth pausing for a moment wouldnt you say!
Are you completely delusional, totally brain washed by your dysfunctional union, that now decides to even forsake its members playing the "X" game on their website?
When are misguided crew like yourself going to wake up and see that you are being led blindly under false promises like "oh don’t worry we will get you your staff travel back (yeah right dream on!) Rhetoric, and understand that the company you work for presently has/is moving on and YOU are being left behind!
Time to grow up and face up!
oh and while you are at it, just think to yourself "WHY, did I go on strike!"
worth pausing for a moment wouldnt you say!
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Midman
It doesn't mean BA pilots would crew those aircraft registered in Spain.
Betty Girl
In such case, why are they bringing in instructors from the outside? Getting Mixed Fleet if you have previously worked for EF and WW fleets is very difficult. Ask our ex-temporary crew who backed BA through the strikes. Many of them have been declined employment on the new fleet. That's what you get for supporting BA.
Of course nobody will be forced over to Mixed Fleet because they don't want any legacy crew on it. They don't want crew to be talking about 'the good old days' on EF and WW fleets. Mixed Fleet is a new era and something out of the ordinary. They even get to wear the uniform hat. They are that special you see!
Report Call Sign
We will get ST back sooner or later. BASSA will not accept an agreement which does not include full (without any sanctions) return of it. BA might be moving on without us, including everyone who crossed the picket line or didn't sign the individual offer offered this summer. That would be around 10.000 crew members in total. It's certainly a high number to be moving on without... But, they are too busy focusing on Mixed Fleet and uniform standard issues as will be screened during SEP. One could wonder why they have all of the sudden come up with that idea.
I don't regret for going on strike. I will do it again should we vote for it. And, I know exactly WHY I went on strike.
It doesn't mean BA pilots would crew those aircraft registered in Spain.
Betty Girl
In such case, why are they bringing in instructors from the outside? Getting Mixed Fleet if you have previously worked for EF and WW fleets is very difficult. Ask our ex-temporary crew who backed BA through the strikes. Many of them have been declined employment on the new fleet. That's what you get for supporting BA.
Of course nobody will be forced over to Mixed Fleet because they don't want any legacy crew on it. They don't want crew to be talking about 'the good old days' on EF and WW fleets. Mixed Fleet is a new era and something out of the ordinary. They even get to wear the uniform hat. They are that special you see!
Report Call Sign
We will get ST back sooner or later. BASSA will not accept an agreement which does not include full (without any sanctions) return of it. BA might be moving on without us, including everyone who crossed the picket line or didn't sign the individual offer offered this summer. That would be around 10.000 crew members in total. It's certainly a high number to be moving on without... But, they are too busy focusing on Mixed Fleet and uniform standard issues as will be screened during SEP. One could wonder why they have all of the sudden come up with that idea.
I don't regret for going on strike. I will do it again should we vote for it. And, I know exactly WHY I went on strike.
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I don't regret for going on strike. I will do it again should we vote for it. And, I know exactly WHY I went on strike.
Staff travel returned? Why would you be under that illusion? Willie wont back down, neither would many of us wish for him to do so.
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We want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet which BA is not willing to provide us. They are willing to 'discuss' route transfers and such with us but nothing else. Discuss means nothing.
Under UK employment Law, consultation is all BA have to do with regard to MF, crew complements and anything else other than pay, pensions and leave. BASSA SHOULD know this, and SHOULD have consulted as best they can. They SHOULD have agreed the crew complements last year and in return agreed an integrated MF that would have secured all our jobs. That is what the PCCC would have done.
The Professional Cabin Crew Council is now working hard to establish itself as a viable alternative to Unite. We are now able to put members in touch with accident and injury legal protection. We are willing where possible to attend meetings with members with BA. We have a forum which demonstrates a wealth of different views from across all fleets, including Mixed Fleet. We are gathering views of our members on the forum (PCCC – Professional Cabin Crew Council) and we hope to soon be in a position to consult sensibly and practically with BA about the issues that affect all of us.
For years we have all paid HUGE amounts of money to Unite. Now, they are not even consulting with BA at all, which is what we pay them to do. They are so busy spending OUR money on yellow pens, spending OUR money on court cases to get back staff travel (which was offered anyway so the court will simply ask why they didn't take it), and spending OUR money on other needless things. Quite frankly they don't know which way is up at the moment. Will they ever recover from this? Unlikely.
It is time for change It is time for someone to start consulting with BA and the people best placed to do that on our behalf are the PCCC.
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Miss M,
You can't have it both ways.
First you say we will all be forced on to Mixed Fleet, now you say they don't want us there.
You can't have it both ways.
Basically, I don't know why a few Temps did not get the jobs, probably their sickness record, but that is just a guess, as in previous years, temps or crew on 6 months probation who have had a bad sickness record have not been taken on full time either.
I have flown with four temps who are taking the job. Having said that they were all treated badly by BA during all this disruption and all said they were just giving it a try, to see what it was going to be like.
When it comes to the hat, BA actually want all of us to wear the hat. Brands have been requesting this for a long time but were told that, in this economic climate, it was too large a cost.
It has been agreed for Mixed Fleet because they are getting less uniform than us. Only two skirts, no trousers and no knitwear.
I have however been told that to prevent people like you from making out it is because Mixed Fleet is special, to stop Mixed Fleet crew, too, from feeling singled out, also because it is something a lot of crew have said they would like and because brands wants us all to have it, BA are considering giving it to all of us, not just Mixed Fleet. So you may be wearing one soon Miss M.
You can't have it both ways.
First you say we will all be forced on to Mixed Fleet, now you say they don't want us there.
You can't have it both ways.
Basically, I don't know why a few Temps did not get the jobs, probably their sickness record, but that is just a guess, as in previous years, temps or crew on 6 months probation who have had a bad sickness record have not been taken on full time either.
I have flown with four temps who are taking the job. Having said that they were all treated badly by BA during all this disruption and all said they were just giving it a try, to see what it was going to be like.
When it comes to the hat, BA actually want all of us to wear the hat. Brands have been requesting this for a long time but were told that, in this economic climate, it was too large a cost.
It has been agreed for Mixed Fleet because they are getting less uniform than us. Only two skirts, no trousers and no knitwear.
I have however been told that to prevent people like you from making out it is because Mixed Fleet is special, to stop Mixed Fleet crew, too, from feeling singled out, also because it is something a lot of crew have said they would like and because brands wants us all to have it, BA are considering giving it to all of us, not just Mixed Fleet. So you may be wearing one soon Miss M.
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"Collective bargaining" means "negotiations relating to or connected with one or more of those matters" (TULRCA 1992 s.178(1)). A different definition is used for some of the purposes of the new rules introduced on 6th June 2000 by Employment Relations Act 1999 sched.1.1. As a general rule.for purposes of these new rules "collective bargaining" refers to negotiations relating to pay, hours and holidays only unless any other matters are voluntarily agreed.
emplaw.co.uk - British Employment Law
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What makes the PCCC people the best placed?
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RadarIndent
Wel
Maybe you didn't understand my question - what makes the PCCC people, whoever they are, the best placed to negotiate with BA?
I'm not after a smart a*sed answer, I want to know what makes them the best placed.
Have they prior negotiating skills? Have they been on a course? Have they experience in negotiating at the highest level with a PLC? Fairly relevant questions which would enhance their credibility dont you think?
l, BASSA have shown a total inability to consult/negotiate, I can not imagine for one moment that the PCCC would continually hum with fingers in their ears, can you?
I'm not after a smart a*sed answer, I want to know what makes them the best placed.
Have they prior negotiating skills? Have they been on a course? Have they experience in negotiating at the highest level with a PLC? Fairly relevant questions which would enhance their credibility dont you think?
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HiFlyer14
Don't take this the wrong way but a 'council' which remains anonymous doesn't sound too serious nor professional. As it has been set up by a couple of cabin crew members it should be interesting to know what sort of experience and relevant education or training they have. For the time being I am not going anywhere near it.
RadarIdent
Because BASSA will never put forward a proposal that does not include full return of ST. BA can't be in a dispute with us forever.
Betty Girl
It is obvious that they don't want us on Mixed Fleet. To be honest I doubt that very few legacy crew would accept it should we ever be given the offer. BA knows that very few legacy crew would accept it because it includes a new contract including lousy terms and conditions.
Don't deny that they are trying very hard to make Mixed Fleet appear special. Be Outstanding and Future Talent to name a few of their beloved and well thought through expressions and titles.
Don't take this the wrong way but a 'council' which remains anonymous doesn't sound too serious nor professional. As it has been set up by a couple of cabin crew members it should be interesting to know what sort of experience and relevant education or training they have. For the time being I am not going anywhere near it.
RadarIdent
Because BASSA will never put forward a proposal that does not include full return of ST. BA can't be in a dispute with us forever.
Betty Girl
It is obvious that they don't want us on Mixed Fleet. To be honest I doubt that very few legacy crew would accept it should we ever be given the offer. BA knows that very few legacy crew would accept it because it includes a new contract including lousy terms and conditions.
Don't deny that they are trying very hard to make Mixed Fleet appear special. Be Outstanding and Future Talent to name a few of their beloved and well thought through expressions and titles.
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Maybe you didn't understand my question - what makes the PCCC people, whoever they are, the best placed to negotiate with BA?
Yes, we are at an early stage here, so fingers crossed that the PCCC will be a viable alternative serving both the interests of Cabin Crew and the airline, something BASSA should have done but have failed to do as of late!