BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Miss M and Hubert.
I have worked for BA for 22 years and in that 22 years they have been nothing other than a good employer. You paint a picture of a management that I don't recognise at all.
In 97 they protected current crew when they altered the salary structure and again now they have agreed to protect current crew. All along they have said that current crew can keep their terms and conditions and they have bent over backwards to try accommodate this.
It is Bassa that always messes things up and has made all this change a complete nightmare.
I know all of you will say Bassa have always negotiated all your terms and conditions, they are wonderful etc etc. but that is not true. Since the late 80's Cabin crew 89(Amicus) have always done the negotiating while Bassa always refuse to talk and then afterwards Bassa always lie to their membership and take the credit for what CC89 negotiate!!!That's the truth.
It is their union in-fighting that has contributed to this mess also. Many of us can clearly see what is happening and that is why we did not strike.
I will however agree that Willie Walsh is probably not an easy person to deal with and that removing Staff Travel has made it all more complicated but in my eyes the true cause of this mess is the inflated egos of some of the union reps ie. DH. who seems to have developed a God like persona.
I have worked for BA for 22 years and in that 22 years they have been nothing other than a good employer. You paint a picture of a management that I don't recognise at all.
In 97 they protected current crew when they altered the salary structure and again now they have agreed to protect current crew. All along they have said that current crew can keep their terms and conditions and they have bent over backwards to try accommodate this.
It is Bassa that always messes things up and has made all this change a complete nightmare.
I know all of you will say Bassa have always negotiated all your terms and conditions, they are wonderful etc etc. but that is not true. Since the late 80's Cabin crew 89(Amicus) have always done the negotiating while Bassa always refuse to talk and then afterwards Bassa always lie to their membership and take the credit for what CC89 negotiate!!!That's the truth.
It is their union in-fighting that has contributed to this mess also. Many of us can clearly see what is happening and that is why we did not strike.
I will however agree that Willie Walsh is probably not an easy person to deal with and that removing Staff Travel has made it all more complicated but in my eyes the true cause of this mess is the inflated egos of some of the union reps ie. DH. who seems to have developed a God like persona.
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Originally Posted by Betty girl
You say they removed the last 'pay back' deal after three years and yes they did but that was because it was only agreed for three years and in actual fact, hardly any crew ever got paid out from it because we nearly all earned more than we previously had, with the exceptions of a few E/F crew who had previously done a lot of split duties.
I and others queeried this at the time, via Contact, however the spin that was put on it, and the fact that my letter was edited in such a way that it enabled them to sidestep the issue, was an eerie foreboding of the lies and spin being perpetrated now.
Leopards never change their spots!
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Rob,
Quite frankly I am amazed that you feel badly done by the 97 agreement. I have never heard anyone in the last 13 years say they felt worse off except for post 97 crew, who like Mixed Fleet crew, new what the salary was when they joined.
That does not however mean that I feel that Mixed Fleet pay is OK. I do not and have been vocal on that point all along. However I would have liked our unions to have been there negotiating on behalf of both us and new crew, instead of calling people out on a damaging strike that has made everything all much worse.
Quite frankly I am amazed that you feel badly done by the 97 agreement. I have never heard anyone in the last 13 years say they felt worse off except for post 97 crew, who like Mixed Fleet crew, new what the salary was when they joined.
That does not however mean that I feel that Mixed Fleet pay is OK. I do not and have been vocal on that point all along. However I would have liked our unions to have been there negotiating on behalf of both us and new crew, instead of calling people out on a damaging strike that has made everything all much worse.
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Furthermore, BA were less than veracious with their proposal. The calculation that was used at the time was inconsistent in its usage in that certain aspects of pay were omitted from the comparable calculation from previous payments; Motor Transport Allowance for one.
I and others queried this at the time, via Contact, however the spin that was put on it, and the fact that my letter was edited in such a way that it enabled them to sidestep the issue, was an eerie foreboding of the lies and spin being perpetrated now.
Leopards never change their spots!
I and others queried this at the time, via Contact, however the spin that was put on it, and the fact that my letter was edited in such a way that it enabled them to sidestep the issue, was an eerie foreboding of the lies and spin being perpetrated now.
Leopards never change their spots!
Not true Rob Bedcrew! Money back guarantee had an end date which was open to review. What happened was that the cost of administration at the end overtook the number of claims. BA then said it had served its purpose and would not continue. Motor transport had nothing to do with it having been incorporated in a different deal. Your letter in Contact was probably answered accurately be you saw it as 'Spin'!
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Originally Posted by vctenderness
Motor transport had nothing to do with it having been incorporated in a different deal. Your letter in Contact was probably answered accurately be you saw it as 'Spin'!
Omitting the MTA allowance would not allow for a direct comparison.
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Betty Girl
What will non unionised crew do when BA break this agreement as isn't that what started this whole farce in the first place?
The agreement is NOT for three years only!
It is the pay deal element that is only for three years.
It is the pay deal element that is only for three years.
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Ottergirl, as a SCCM, I am quite frankly shocked and disgusted at the way that you have treated this member of your crew (irrespective of their views). Large organisations have policies in place to protect employees from ring-leaders like you!
Last edited by tash55; 9th Oct 2010 at 08:33.
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the x's
When they first appeared I hoped they were kisses goodbye, but I now guess they are a count down to Bassa's appeal on the 11th.
There are two more x's to come -
xxxx.bassa.co.uk/xxx.gif
and
xxxx.bassa.co.uk/xxxx.gif
There are two more x's to come -
xxxx.bassa.co.uk/xxx.gif
and
xxxx.bassa.co.uk/xxxx.gif
COURT 74
Before LORD JUSTICE WARD
LADY JUSTICE SMITH and
LORD JUSTICE JACKSON
Monday, 11th October, 2010
At half-past 10
APPLICATION
A2/2010/0578(Y) Malone & ors -v- British Airways Plc. Application of Claimants for renewal of lower court part refusal of permission to appeal.
APPEAL
From The Queen's Bench Division
FINAL DECISIONS
A2/2010/0578 Malone & ors -v- British Airways Plc. Appeal of Claimants from the order of Sir Christopher Holland, dated 19th February 2010, filed 10th March 2010.
Before LORD JUSTICE WARD
LADY JUSTICE SMITH and
LORD JUSTICE JACKSON
Monday, 11th October, 2010
At half-past 10
APPLICATION
A2/2010/0578(Y) Malone & ors -v- British Airways Plc. Application of Claimants for renewal of lower court part refusal of permission to appeal.
APPEAL
From The Queen's Bench Division
FINAL DECISIONS
A2/2010/0578 Malone & ors -v- British Airways Plc. Appeal of Claimants from the order of Sir Christopher Holland, dated 19th February 2010, filed 10th March 2010.
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Miss M
It is this sort of dual standards that really astounds me. Here is Miss M, a true stalwart advocate of the BASSA action, laudable irrespective of your view point, considering VR if the package is good enough.
Let's turn the clock back to the start of this sorry dispute and look at the requirement for all departments to shed jobs. All departments were told that VR could be offered IF, and only if, productivity were increased to allow the same workload to be shared amongst the remaining employees.
I seem to remember that some 2400 VR applications were received by IFcE from members of the CC. These VR applications were put on ice due to the inability of BASSA to negotiate changes thus ensuring the required productivity. Only after BA exhausted the negotiation path and put up with the purile infighting of BASSA for an extra 6 months were the changes imposed and the VR applications rubber stamped thus ensuring no compulsory redundancies.
Now we have members of BASSA who demand retraction of the productivity changes but want a golden egg VR package as well? It would seem that anything goes in BASSA as long as the individual is 'alright jack'. I wonder why all of the LH CSD's who make up the board want to protect their 'legacy' past?
Sometimes it is the little things that reveal the true murky nature of self centerism that lies beneath.
As much as some of you obviously would prefer me to do, I won't be going anywhere for a while. Maybe if BA offered me a good VR package I would consider it!
Let's turn the clock back to the start of this sorry dispute and look at the requirement for all departments to shed jobs. All departments were told that VR could be offered IF, and only if, productivity were increased to allow the same workload to be shared amongst the remaining employees.
I seem to remember that some 2400 VR applications were received by IFcE from members of the CC. These VR applications were put on ice due to the inability of BASSA to negotiate changes thus ensuring the required productivity. Only after BA exhausted the negotiation path and put up with the purile infighting of BASSA for an extra 6 months were the changes imposed and the VR applications rubber stamped thus ensuring no compulsory redundancies.
Now we have members of BASSA who demand retraction of the productivity changes but want a golden egg VR package as well? It would seem that anything goes in BASSA as long as the individual is 'alright jack'. I wonder why all of the LH CSD's who make up the board want to protect their 'legacy' past?
Sometimes it is the little things that reveal the true murky nature of self centerism that lies beneath.
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Ottergirl, as a SCCM, I am quite frankly shocked and disgusted at the way that you have treated this member of your crew (irrespective of their views). Large organisations have policies in place to protect employees from ring-leaders like you!
What do the other forumites think? Is it unacceptable to try and get withdrawn crew to engage with the team or should they be allowed to be as quiet as they like? What do the other SCCM's do to improve crew morale?
Last edited by ottergirl; 9th Oct 2010 at 09:06.
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flapsforty
Moderator
Mohitomaster, this thread is about BA CC industrial relations.
Not about shenanigans on other forums.
That's good to know. Does this mean, however, that those who have prolifically copy and pasted from BASSA and Crewforum will now have their posts deleted?
Many thanks.
Moderator
Mohitomaster, this thread is about BA CC industrial relations.
Not about shenanigans on other forums.
That's good to know. Does this mean, however, that those who have prolifically copy and pasted from BASSA and Crewforum will now have their posts deleted?
Many thanks.
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Rocket Scientist, all information pertaining to the dispute is welcome here.
Discussion about what goes on other forums is not.
Substance rather than gossip, facts & reasoned opinion rather than mindless hysteria.
As long as you are currently employed by an airline and our way of doing things appeals to you, please feel free to participate.
If you donīt like our rules, which is entirely your choice, do not participate.
--------------------
flapsforty
PPRuNe Moderator Team
Discussion about what goes on other forums is not.
Substance rather than gossip, facts & reasoned opinion rather than mindless hysteria.
As long as you are currently employed by an airline and our way of doing things appeals to you, please feel free to participate.
If you donīt like our rules, which is entirely your choice, do not participate.
--------------------
flapsforty
PPRuNe Moderator Team
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Betty Girl
We are dealing with a different management this time. 13 years was a long time ago. They are saying that they want to protect current crew. That's why we need a watertight agreement because face it or not Mixed Fleet will make existing fleets come to an end. Quicker than you think. They say it will take at least 10 years which is rubbish. They have looked at the history and simply multiplied it with 10. They are already recruiting 1250 crew a year which is around 10% of the current crew numbers.
It should be interesting to see in three years what stance management will take towards you when they want to re-negotiate, or should I say discuss, your pay. Be rest assured that they are wanting to decrease it because many lucrative routes have gone over to Mixed Fleet and thus your average yearly earning should be less.
You say that you did not strike because you can see what is happening. Here's a question to you. Could it be that you did not strike because you relied on others to do it for you?
We are dealing with a different management this time. 13 years was a long time ago. They are saying that they want to protect current crew. That's why we need a watertight agreement because face it or not Mixed Fleet will make existing fleets come to an end. Quicker than you think. They say it will take at least 10 years which is rubbish. They have looked at the history and simply multiplied it with 10. They are already recruiting 1250 crew a year which is around 10% of the current crew numbers.
It should be interesting to see in three years what stance management will take towards you when they want to re-negotiate, or should I say discuss, your pay. Be rest assured that they are wanting to decrease it because many lucrative routes have gone over to Mixed Fleet and thus your average yearly earning should be less.
You say that you did not strike because you can see what is happening. Here's a question to you. Could it be that you did not strike because you relied on others to do it for you?
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We are dealing with a different management this time. 13 years was a long time ago. They are saying that they want to protect current crew. That's why we need a watertight agreement because face it or not Mixed Fleet will make existing fleets come to an end. Quicker than you think. They say it will take at least 10 years which is rubbish. They have looked at the history and simply multiplied it with 10. They are already recruiting 1250 crew a year which is around 10% of the current crew numbers.
It should be interesting to see in three years what stance management will take towards you when they want to re-negotiate, or should I say discuss, your pay. Be rest assured that they are wanting to decrease it because many lucrative routes have gone over to Mixed Fleet and thus your average yearly earning should be less
You say that you did not strike because you can see what is happening. Here's a question to you. Could it be that you did not strike because you relied on others to do it for you?
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There's no denying that we are dealing with a different mangement this time Miss M, it's a far more intelligent mangement. So is is striking going to sort out the growth of Mixed Fleet? BASSA have blown it big time and they know it, that's the problem with the BASSA mentality, blame everyone else except for themselves.
We want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet which BA is not willing to provide us. They are willing to 'discuss' route transfers and such with us but nothing else. Discuss means nothing.
As someone suggested in a an earlier post, get a 'New BASSA' in and you might possibly see crew sticking together in a united front. Stop blaming BA and take some accountability for a change.
A cheap shot, Miss M.
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Miss M,
You know well, that all this strike has done is cause you damage and lost you some pay and your staff travel. It has caused BA damage, damage to it's name and reputation. It has caused all of us crew damage, now being viewed so badly by so many, you just have to look at all the posts from our passengers on pprune. But the most damage it has done is to the union itself by making such a stupid decision to strike in the first place. It has lost all moral high ground because it was an ill thought out strike over a ridiculous issue that most crew were not even bothered about. It has actually lost Bassa any power it ever had. More fool DH, he was actually told by one of his own reps back in November that he needed to wait for the November pay roll before balloting but he just went ahead with an illegal ballot in full knowledge of what he was doing. It is DH that has let you down and he has let Bassa down also. No one else.
It is easy to blame those of us that could see this from the start but even if all crew had striked it would have made absolutely NO difference because only weeks later the volcanic dust shut BA down completely. It was clear to see that Willie Walsh would have just ridden out a strike in just the same way.
Bassa have never negotiated in good faith, often not even bothering to sit down at the negotiating table, and that is why this is such a mess and it is people like YOU, that need to do something about it and get a new Bassa Chairman elected instead of holding on to the complete fool, that is not even eligible anymore to be your leader.
P.S. Mixed fleet was off the table until Bassa started the strike. Wake up and stop blaming every one except yourselves for this mess.
You know well, that all this strike has done is cause you damage and lost you some pay and your staff travel. It has caused BA damage, damage to it's name and reputation. It has caused all of us crew damage, now being viewed so badly by so many, you just have to look at all the posts from our passengers on pprune. But the most damage it has done is to the union itself by making such a stupid decision to strike in the first place. It has lost all moral high ground because it was an ill thought out strike over a ridiculous issue that most crew were not even bothered about. It has actually lost Bassa any power it ever had. More fool DH, he was actually told by one of his own reps back in November that he needed to wait for the November pay roll before balloting but he just went ahead with an illegal ballot in full knowledge of what he was doing. It is DH that has let you down and he has let Bassa down also. No one else.
It is easy to blame those of us that could see this from the start but even if all crew had striked it would have made absolutely NO difference because only weeks later the volcanic dust shut BA down completely. It was clear to see that Willie Walsh would have just ridden out a strike in just the same way.
Bassa have never negotiated in good faith, often not even bothering to sit down at the negotiating table, and that is why this is such a mess and it is people like YOU, that need to do something about it and get a new Bassa Chairman elected instead of holding on to the complete fool, that is not even eligible anymore to be your leader.
P.S. Mixed fleet was off the table until Bassa started the strike. Wake up and stop blaming every one except yourselves for this mess.
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Everyone who crossed the picket line is responsible for Mixed Fleet. Don't ever believe that you did yourself, or this company, a favour for not going on strike. It was a short-sighted, and may I dare say selfish, decision of you.
We want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet which BA is not willing to provide us. They are willing to 'discuss' route transfers and such with us but nothing else. Discuss means nothing.
We want some sort of control of Mixed Fleet which BA is not willing to provide us. They are willing to 'discuss' route transfers and such with us but nothing else. Discuss means nothing.
You say 'discuss means nothing' and that's precisely why we are here right now because of BASSA's refusal to discuss. Your statement 'we want control of Mixed Fleet' is staggering! It says it all.
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MissM
Without exception, all your posts are very pro BASSA, your views extremely anti-management, very distrusting of them, only you and BASSA are 'correct', and no other department, in your opinion, are as pertinent to the operation as 'you'.
May I ask, are BASSA, to your mind, totally flawless, and are you content with all those that currently represent you?
Thank you MissM
May I ask, are BASSA, to your mind, totally flawless, and are you content with all those that currently represent you?
Thank you MissM
Last edited by ranger07; 9th Oct 2010 at 14:12.