BA CC industrial relations (current airline staff only)
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Wirbelsturm,
what you say makes sense, and I agreed with the initial quote that if it is in the best interests of the company and shareholders St will be returned. I just think it it a complex issue.
The most important part, as I see it, is that this dispute has now gone on so long that it is a MUST for the company not to be in such a situation again. I feel that BA believe they must not give BASSA a victory that would allow them to lick their wounds and rebuild the union as it was prior to this dispute. For BA, it is imperative that the basic relationship that they have with BASSA is redefined - BA to manage their business, BASSA to act as a negotiating body for the CC community.
It would be a false economy to settle this dispute now without dealing with the underlying flaw in the relationship. If they were to do this, then doubtless there will be another toxic dispute in a couple of years and another one a few years after that - sadly a show down with BASSA as a loser is necessary for the long term and for the future commercial sucess of BA. No Blue Chip company can afford a dinosaur union exercising such influence over its commercial operation. BA need to divest themselves of the reputation of having a strike every summer.
The position BA and BASSA are in now is less than ideal but the longer it continues the less it hurts BA - Premium loads are up, the share price is up and the threat of further IA does not seem to be worrying the frequent flyers overly. This dispute needs to be settled but not at any cost. As you say I am not particularly bothered about ST itself, it is more about what it represents in this dispute and the way it has been used as a political football that defines it's relative import.
what you say makes sense, and I agreed with the initial quote that if it is in the best interests of the company and shareholders St will be returned. I just think it it a complex issue.
The most important part, as I see it, is that this dispute has now gone on so long that it is a MUST for the company not to be in such a situation again. I feel that BA believe they must not give BASSA a victory that would allow them to lick their wounds and rebuild the union as it was prior to this dispute. For BA, it is imperative that the basic relationship that they have with BASSA is redefined - BA to manage their business, BASSA to act as a negotiating body for the CC community.
It would be a false economy to settle this dispute now without dealing with the underlying flaw in the relationship. If they were to do this, then doubtless there will be another toxic dispute in a couple of years and another one a few years after that - sadly a show down with BASSA as a loser is necessary for the long term and for the future commercial sucess of BA. No Blue Chip company can afford a dinosaur union exercising such influence over its commercial operation. BA need to divest themselves of the reputation of having a strike every summer.
The position BA and BASSA are in now is less than ideal but the longer it continues the less it hurts BA - Premium loads are up, the share price is up and the threat of further IA does not seem to be worrying the frequent flyers overly. This dispute needs to be settled but not at any cost. As you say I am not particularly bothered about ST itself, it is more about what it represents in this dispute and the way it has been used as a political football that defines it's relative import.
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Her (Miss M's) statement of "Sure, some managers and desk clerks at Waterside might have put a few things together..." displays a level of arrogance and ignorance in equal measure.
She hasn't ever heard any point of view or fact that she doesn't agree with.
Which is why, if I was Willie, I wouldn't give an inch , ever, until Bassa totally cave, or until the crew themselves change Bassa's strategy.
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I'm afraid that BASSA will never simply 'go away'. The thugs at Unite will never allow it, they have a hook into a major FTSE 100 company and they are not going to allow that to be lost any time soon.
If BA attempted to destroy BASSA then Unite would be all over the company like a rash. The delights of the Socialist Worker party camping on the doors of Waterside and T5 is not one that the company wishes.
Although the PCCC could be a credible alternative they have yet to amass the required numbers for official recognition and they have also not been exposed to the negotiation experience with the company.
Even with 4000 militant members BASSA would still be a force to reckon with sadly and therefore they need to be legally hamstrung and tied up to prevent this sort of scenario in the future. BA could hold the sword of Damocles over them with respect to the costs involved over the past two years and a threat to reclaim if they caused more trouble. It MUST be in writing though!
To re-iterate, BA CANNOT destroy BASSA nor, IMHO, would they or have they ever wanted to. That was pure BASSA fantasy. BA will want to remove the old school, historic, miltant tendancies of the Union and ensure that clauses are placed into agreements/contracts to prevent future damage due to ingrowing toenails, days off for Henley, Wimbledon etc. etc. etc.
Give the power to decide what is acceptable hours for all crew based on a singular industrial hours framework to the Captain and lets all get back to work.
If BA attempted to destroy BASSA then Unite would be all over the company like a rash. The delights of the Socialist Worker party camping on the doors of Waterside and T5 is not one that the company wishes.
Although the PCCC could be a credible alternative they have yet to amass the required numbers for official recognition and they have also not been exposed to the negotiation experience with the company.
Even with 4000 militant members BASSA would still be a force to reckon with sadly and therefore they need to be legally hamstrung and tied up to prevent this sort of scenario in the future. BA could hold the sword of Damocles over them with respect to the costs involved over the past two years and a threat to reclaim if they caused more trouble. It MUST be in writing though!
To re-iterate, BA CANNOT destroy BASSA nor, IMHO, would they or have they ever wanted to. That was pure BASSA fantasy. BA will want to remove the old school, historic, miltant tendancies of the Union and ensure that clauses are placed into agreements/contracts to prevent future damage due to ingrowing toenails, days off for Henley, Wimbledon etc. etc. etc.
Give the power to decide what is acceptable hours for all crew based on a singular industrial hours framework to the Captain and lets all get back to work.
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GearUp CheerUp
Interesting. Who's paying overtime pay?
Juan Tripp
Not a surprise as you, and Tiramisu, would be too busy backing BA for nothing in return. Every single person who crossed the picket has done nothing but to prolong our dispute and step up the creation of Mixed Fleet. Don't think for a second that you have done yourself a favour.
Let's believe BA's figures for a second. They claim that some 4.900 crew members have lost ST. Around 6.000 would have crossed the picket line and 1.000 of them signed (and sold themselves down the river) the individual offer. What exactly have the remaining 5.000 crew members gained from crossing the picket line? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
ChicoG
I will never feel embarrased over my actions or claim that they were pointless. I still believe going on strike was the right decision and I won't hestitate a second to go on another strike should we vote for it.
We still have power. Even if we vote for another strike it will affect the business regardless of BA promising to operate a full 100% longhaul schedule. What will our customers be getting? They will be getting to their destinations but receiving a substandard and poor service from VCC which is not what many are expecting.
Snas
A team? Hardly. I'm finding it very difficult to be saying that BA employees who either crossed the picket line or trained to break our strike are my colleagues. I find their behaviour to be despicable.
Well done Willie Walsh. You have really succeeded in dividing this company.
Interesting. Who's paying overtime pay?
Juan Tripp
Not a surprise as you, and Tiramisu, would be too busy backing BA for nothing in return. Every single person who crossed the picket has done nothing but to prolong our dispute and step up the creation of Mixed Fleet. Don't think for a second that you have done yourself a favour.
Let's believe BA's figures for a second. They claim that some 4.900 crew members have lost ST. Around 6.000 would have crossed the picket line and 1.000 of them signed (and sold themselves down the river) the individual offer. What exactly have the remaining 5.000 crew members gained from crossing the picket line? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
ChicoG
I will never feel embarrased over my actions or claim that they were pointless. I still believe going on strike was the right decision and I won't hestitate a second to go on another strike should we vote for it.
We still have power. Even if we vote for another strike it will affect the business regardless of BA promising to operate a full 100% longhaul schedule. What will our customers be getting? They will be getting to their destinations but receiving a substandard and poor service from VCC which is not what many are expecting.
Snas
A team? Hardly. I'm finding it very difficult to be saying that BA employees who either crossed the picket line or trained to break our strike are my colleagues. I find their behaviour to be despicable.
Well done Willie Walsh. You have really succeeded in dividing this company.
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A team? Hardly. I'm finding it very difficult to be saying that BA employees who either crossed the picket line or trained to break our strike are my colleagues. I find their behaviour to be despicable.
Fortunately however I happen to know that your view isn’t shared by all your cabin crew colleagues, so unlike you, it would seem, I have some hope for the future of the team.
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Every single person who crossed the picket has done nothing but to prolong our dispute and step up the creation of Mixed Fleet.
At the time the ballot was run and indeed for the whole summer BA were in dire economic straits and required structural changes. BASSA were quite determined to have no changes (something they have completely failed to achieve) hence the ballot. A successful strike is highly likely to have triggered a more robust response from BA. Rather than berating people for crossing the picket line line, you should be thanking them for you having a job on your current salary.
Either way, if and maybe are irrelevant, people did cross the picket lines and the strike failed. BASSA need to move on and deal with the reality of a failed strike and stop wishing things were different.
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Wow. If MissM is typical of the BASSA die hards, how on earth can any deal be struck?
Such elitist attitudes, every one else is wrong, no other staff member in BA is as pertinent to the operation etc etc.
I'm stunned at these outlandish attitudes.
Are you ever going to offer this airline anything MissM?
Such elitist attitudes, every one else is wrong, no other staff member in BA is as pertinent to the operation etc etc.
I'm stunned at these outlandish attitudes.
Are you ever going to offer this airline anything MissM?
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Posted by Miss M
What exactly have the remaining 5.000 crew members gained from crossing the picket line? Nothing. Absolutely nothing
What exactly have the remaining 5.000 crew members gained from crossing the picket line? Nothing. Absolutely nothing
Quite a lot actually.
1. Staff Travel
2. They haven't lost money and got themselves in financial difficulties.
3. Job satisfaction... they are happy at work.
Lastly,they are not the ones that look miserable in CRC moping around. A Captain asked me recently about how I could differentiate the strikers from those who came to work. My reply was they are ones who don't smile and look miserable all the time feeling sorry for themselves.
I forgot to add,
4. Kept the people who pay our wages (the pax) happy to continue to fly BA
5. Helped our employers overcome a ridiculous, disproportionate strike which threatened our employers future, thus safeguarding our jobs and pensions
Last edited by Tiramisu; 7th Oct 2010 at 16:04. Reason: Edited to add 4 and 5
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Tiramisu, you beat me to it I was just composing a similar message.
Miss M - your views are quite staggering. Could you not conceive for a moment that your beloved union and reps have let you down badly? That they have allowed their ego's to prevent them from getting a future for their members? They may have lost their jobs but they could much better afford to than most of their members thanks to Unite subs paying off their mortgages. Some of them only became reps because they didn't like flying much and wanted more time on the ground to hang out at St Mary's stadium. Turn some of your anger to the people who have let you down badly, we owe you nothing, they do!
Had a great trip today with just such one of these people (notorious according to the rest of the crew). From the arrival in the briefing room dripping in yellow pens, xxxx tags, bassa lanyard, etc. right up to the end of the day he was a total misery. Of course, we did have a little fun at his expense, engaging him in reluctant conversations and teasing him about his pens. Result four happy CC and one v. unhappy! Who lost?
Edited to add, seems some of you who are new to the forum think I am implying that we bullied this crew member. Not at all, we were lovelyto him! It is part of all our jobs to engage with the team we are working with and, if as a crew member it makes you unhappy to talk to your crew, then clearly it is not the right job for you. His unhappiness came from within him not from his crew.
Miss M - your views are quite staggering. Could you not conceive for a moment that your beloved union and reps have let you down badly? That they have allowed their ego's to prevent them from getting a future for their members? They may have lost their jobs but they could much better afford to than most of their members thanks to Unite subs paying off their mortgages. Some of them only became reps because they didn't like flying much and wanted more time on the ground to hang out at St Mary's stadium. Turn some of your anger to the people who have let you down badly, we owe you nothing, they do!
A Captain asked me recently about how I could differentiate the strikers from those who came to work.
Edited to add, seems some of you who are new to the forum think I am implying that we bullied this crew member. Not at all, we were lovelyto him! It is part of all our jobs to engage with the team we are working with and, if as a crew member it makes you unhappy to talk to your crew, then clearly it is not the right job for you. His unhappiness came from within him not from his crew.
Last edited by ottergirl; 9th Oct 2010 at 08:59.
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Hiroo Onoda
I'm once again reminded of this. The rest of the world knows it's over. The die yards look like they will continue taking pot shots at the locals and stealing the occasional chicken though. The question is will the commanding officer leave his seasonal veg to come and tell them it's over?
I'm once again reminded of this. The rest of the world knows it's over. The die yards look like they will continue taking pot shots at the locals and stealing the occasional chicken though. The question is will the commanding officer leave his seasonal veg to come and tell them it's over?
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I'm afraid that BASSA will never simply 'go away'. The thugs at Unite will never allow it, they have a hook into a major FTSE 100 company and they are not going to allow that to be lost any time soon.
If BA attempted to destroy BASSA then Unite would be all over the company like a rash. The delights of the Socialist Worker party camping on the doors of Waterside and T5 is not one that the company wishes.
If BA attempted to destroy BASSA then Unite would be all over the company like a rash. The delights of the Socialist Worker party camping on the doors of Waterside and T5 is not one that the company wishes.
BA has been very careful not to do anything to upset other Unite groups as that could be dangerous so they will continue to ignore BASSA which is fine by most other Unite members.
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Hi Ottergirl,
There's only one way to manage all the yellow that does not comply with uniform standards. I request politely, to have it removed. Easy.
There's going to be a huge focus on Uniform Standards soon with the start up of Mixed Fleet in November. BA want to make sure that we all look smart so therefore no 'Vote Yes Strike' Tags and anything that sends the wrong message to our customers. About time too.
There's only one way to manage all the yellow that does not comply with uniform standards. I request politely, to have it removed. Easy.
There's going to be a huge focus on Uniform Standards soon with the start up of Mixed Fleet in November. BA want to make sure that we all look smart so therefore no 'Vote Yes Strike' Tags and anything that sends the wrong message to our customers. About time too.
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Wading in
What will our customers be getting? They will be getting to their destinations but receiving a substandard and poor service from VCC which is not what many are expecting.
Other VCC are managers from all levels of the business who are benefitting from the experience by being able to go "back to the floor" and learn a great deal about the role.
Then of course you have a large number of cabin crew who have changed careers but who were able to go back to Cranebank on reduced length courses due to their recent flying experience - for these people it's like riding a bicycle.
What the VCC and Backing BA campaigns have done is to unite more and more people at BA who believe we have a bright future. People from all walks of life and jobs at BA have been thrown together in all sorts of activities, and many agree that it feels more and more like one big team now, like never before. VCC has also earned the cabin crew themselves a huge amount of respect and admiration, as more and more people understand fully the lifestyle, the job, and all of the pressure it entails.
So no, I don't think our customers' on board experience will suffer in any way other than, perhaps, the pace of the service if the crew are working to minimum complements.
GG
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And probably the reason why BA are not now, the middle eastern airlines have a fantastic crew attitude that BA could learn from. I think Mixed fleet may have a few teething problems, but give it a few months, it could give BA back its consistent brand and customer service that is sometimes lacking - we all want BA to do well don't we ?
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Although the PCCC could be a credible alternative they have yet to amass the required numbers for official recognition and they have also not been exposed to the negotiation experience with the company.
Whilst the PCCC may not have the required numbers for official recognition as yet, they are not far behind and as previously mentioned, they are gaining momentum.
Who's to say that the PCCC don't have the required skills to negotiate with the company anyway? From what I have seen, the PCCC members are more responsible, intelligent and forward thinking exploring ideas for a way forward out of this mess on our behalves.
What have BASSA's negotiating experience achieved with the company to date?
Loss of Pay and Staff Travel for strikers.
Loss of New Share Scheme and Extra Free Ticket.
Loss of Monthly Travel Payment.
Tarnished the reputation of an iconic brand and it's cabin crew.
They have expedited Mixed Fleet and the list goes on...
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Juan Tough
Should I be thanking BA for having a job on my current salary? Do you think my salary has been given to me from BA as a gesture of generosity or because of strong union representation?
Ranger07
I would be willing to offer a lot to BA but only if they were interested and serious to negotiate seriously. They could remove another crew member if they wanted to but it would have to be negotiated. Not imposed.
Tiramisu
What about Mixed Fleet? Will they be protected from it? No, they won't. It was a bad decision to cross the picket line. BASSA have not expedited Mixed Fleet. Who did? Every single one who crossed the picket line including yourself. Be proud of yourselves. In my opinion, everyone who crossed the picket line should be offered a new contract on Mixed Fleet.
Regarding the PCCC I don't believe you have the appropiate negotiating skills. It would probably be suitable for anyone who crossed the picket line but not everyone else who went on strike because we want to protect our future careers and reach a watertight agreement. Undoubtedly PCCC would have soled all of us down the river.
GayGourmet
It's different to work onboard. From what I have experienced from having worked with VCC they do give a substandard service and have absolutely no idea what they are doing. I gather they must be rather excited over getting the opportunity to work as cabin crew and wearing wings on their jackets as they probably never would have passed the ordinary selection process under normal circumstances.
Should I be thanking BA for having a job on my current salary? Do you think my salary has been given to me from BA as a gesture of generosity or because of strong union representation?
Ranger07
I would be willing to offer a lot to BA but only if they were interested and serious to negotiate seriously. They could remove another crew member if they wanted to but it would have to be negotiated. Not imposed.
Tiramisu
What about Mixed Fleet? Will they be protected from it? No, they won't. It was a bad decision to cross the picket line. BASSA have not expedited Mixed Fleet. Who did? Every single one who crossed the picket line including yourself. Be proud of yourselves. In my opinion, everyone who crossed the picket line should be offered a new contract on Mixed Fleet.
Regarding the PCCC I don't believe you have the appropiate negotiating skills. It would probably be suitable for anyone who crossed the picket line but not everyone else who went on strike because we want to protect our future careers and reach a watertight agreement. Undoubtedly PCCC would have soled all of us down the river.
GayGourmet
It's different to work onboard. From what I have experienced from having worked with VCC they do give a substandard service and have absolutely no idea what they are doing. I gather they must be rather excited over getting the opportunity to work as cabin crew and wearing wings on their jackets as they probably never would have passed the ordinary selection process under normal circumstances.
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Miss M. You say VCC aren't up to the standard of Legacy crew. This may be true of some. But can you explain, why on the SLF site and Flyertalk our passengers are only too pleased and want to fly with BA during the strike periods, finding the experience much better than the norm. Not in sinc with your view of VCC capability at all.
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There's going to be a huge focus on Uniform Standards soon with the start up of Mixed Fleet in November. BA want to make sure that we all look smart so therefore no 'Vote Yes Strike' Tags and anything that sends the wrong message to our customers. About time too.
Last edited by MissM; 7th Oct 2010 at 19:19.
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MissM,
Congratulations on your continued defence of BASSA. It makes entertaining reading and helps the rest of us see how difficult it must be for IFCE to try and manage some of you. However, you do yourself no favours by being blind to published facts. Please read and comprehend the ruling against BASSA regarding the imposition - BASSA did not negotiate, so BA had no reasonable option but to impose the changes. Why are you unable to recognise this?
Congratulations on your continued defence of BASSA. It makes entertaining reading and helps the rest of us see how difficult it must be for IFCE to try and manage some of you. However, you do yourself no favours by being blind to published facts. Please read and comprehend the ruling against BASSA regarding the imposition - BASSA did not negotiate, so BA had no reasonable option but to impose the changes. Why are you unable to recognise this?
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Juan Tough
Should I be thanking BA for having a job on my current salary? Do you think my salary has been given to me from BA as a gesture of generosity or because of strong union representation?
Should I be thanking BA for having a job on my current salary? Do you think my salary has been given to me from BA as a gesture of generosity or because of strong union representation?
You are being, I suspect, deliberately obtuse. I did not say that you should be grateful to BA for your salary but I did point out to you that "BASSA need to move on and deal with the reality of a failed strike and stop wishing things were different." It does not matter what might have happened it matters what did happen and how BASSA intends to move forward, an analogy is that if I got the numbers for the lottery last week I would be a millionaire - but I am not and wishes will not pay the mortgage.