British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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LD12986.
Is that why BA require unionised crew to resign from their union before accepting the current deal.
Is that why crew who are considering the latest deal are being told that if they undertake industrial action ever again they would lose parts of the agreement, thus rendering union membership totally ineffective. A bit like the PCCC.
Is that why BA require unionised crew to resign from their union before accepting the current deal.
Is that why crew who are considering the latest deal are being told that if they undertake industrial action ever again they would lose parts of the agreement, thus rendering union membership totally ineffective. A bit like the PCCC.
(And guess what's coming next?!)
The only thing lost by undertaking IA in the future would be the allowances top-up, but that's already pooh-poohed by most on CF, so no loss there then?
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So, PC767:
If WW had not negotiated with Unite, you would have screamed union-busting.
But WW has negotiated with Unite, yet you say he is union-busting.
This stuff about Project Columbus and NF being union-busting is rubbish. Anyone who gets recruited to Mixed Fleet can remain in Unite or join Unite. MF is about getting badly-needed cost reductions and operational flexibility in IFCE. You can't blame WW for BASSA's failure to negotiate on MF.
If WW had not negotiated with Unite, you would have screamed union-busting.
But WW has negotiated with Unite, yet you say he is union-busting.
This stuff about Project Columbus and NF being union-busting is rubbish. Anyone who gets recruited to Mixed Fleet can remain in Unite or join Unite. MF is about getting badly-needed cost reductions and operational flexibility in IFCE. You can't blame WW for BASSA's failure to negotiate on MF.
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The only thing lost by undertaking IA in the future would be the allowances top-up, but that's already pooh-poohed by most on CF, so no loss there then?
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Hotel mode.
Your post tells me that negotiating is not a prerequisite for you either. Good luck.
The problem in IFCE was that the amount we were to save kept changing and when BASSA put ideas on the table, (whether they were any good or not), they were reject because the savings required had just changed.
I've said it before and will again. This is all part of the game plan. Op Colombus was always on the cards, and to break the union Walsh needed a strike. I await to see the outcome of the next ballot because I worry that the 'ayes' will be less than before, thus Walsh will start to see the crumbling of the union. Worn out cabin crew will come back to work, we are told they are already.
Bingo, Op Colombus and a severely bashed and weakened union.
I suppose it is a bit like my old career, the PC bit. When we went to a fight or disturbance we always aimed to take down the biggest first in the belief that the others would quieten down when we did so.
Your post tells me that negotiating is not a prerequisite for you either. Good luck.
The problem in IFCE was that the amount we were to save kept changing and when BASSA put ideas on the table, (whether they were any good or not), they were reject because the savings required had just changed.
I've said it before and will again. This is all part of the game plan. Op Colombus was always on the cards, and to break the union Walsh needed a strike. I await to see the outcome of the next ballot because I worry that the 'ayes' will be less than before, thus Walsh will start to see the crumbling of the union. Worn out cabin crew will come back to work, we are told they are already.
Bingo, Op Colombus and a severely bashed and weakened union.
I suppose it is a bit like my old career, the PC bit. When we went to a fight or disturbance we always aimed to take down the biggest first in the belief that the others would quieten down when we did so.
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Sorry, ask anyone in ba what they think thier role in a years time may entail and you will get a lot of different answers. Im sure a lot of them will say they have no idea.
See the recent posts and every other department has made the change, BASSA refused to negotiate and now you are as you say stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Im tired of the what if, what if.. Were only doing this to save the rest of BA. WW is overpaid.. If you are so unsure and dont trust your employer that much. Theres the door, shut it on your way out.
In my very short time at BA (compared to most) I dont think Ive seen them deliberatly try and screw anyone over. Actually Ive found them to be reasonable, honest, open and pretty reliable at paying my wages!
For to long the company has refused to tackle the problem, now they have, it was always going to hurt a little. But short term pain long term gain.
See the recent posts and every other department has made the change, BASSA refused to negotiate and now you are as you say stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Im tired of the what if, what if.. Were only doing this to save the rest of BA. WW is overpaid.. If you are so unsure and dont trust your employer that much. Theres the door, shut it on your way out.
In my very short time at BA (compared to most) I dont think Ive seen them deliberatly try and screw anyone over. Actually Ive found them to be reasonable, honest, open and pretty reliable at paying my wages!
For to long the company has refused to tackle the problem, now they have, it was always going to hurt a little. But short term pain long term gain.
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Depends on what you call negotiation. Just turning up and making unreasonable statements isn't. And that goes for both sides. You can have as many meetings as you want but if you've already decided before you enter the room how firm you stand it will be pointless.
Going through the motions, playing the part. And the later stating, we tried.
Whether Walsh has negotiated or not, this exercise was transparently about union busting.
One more point, I can blame BA for Mixed Fleet. At one stage BASSA agreed to Mixed Fleet unopposed. So the company took it off the table, and then when matters were not progressing, not only threw it back on the table but started recruitment. How do you negotiate something the company states will not be happening anymore. No negotiation needed. Perhaps that was the plot. Walsh wanted Mixed Fleet in its entirety, unadulterated, and by not having it at negotiations he ensured it couldn't be altered in any way.
Going through the motions, playing the part. And the later stating, we tried.
Whether Walsh has negotiated or not, this exercise was transparently about union busting.
One more point, I can blame BA for Mixed Fleet. At one stage BASSA agreed to Mixed Fleet unopposed. So the company took it off the table, and then when matters were not progressing, not only threw it back on the table but started recruitment. How do you negotiate something the company states will not be happening anymore. No negotiation needed. Perhaps that was the plot. Walsh wanted Mixed Fleet in its entirety, unadulterated, and by not having it at negotiations he ensured it couldn't be altered in any way.
Last edited by PC767; 6th Jul 2010 at 22:52. Reason: Tired.
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Tired'er than last time
NewYorker,
There is no evidence that only BASSA refused to negotiate, other than hearsay and assumption.
You'll also find your arguments about Walsh being overpaid and cabin crew gallantly saving the company hold zero water with me. I've never advocated either position.
And still you miss the point about roles and 20 years.
There is no evidence that only BASSA refused to negotiate, other than hearsay and assumption.
You'll also find your arguments about Walsh being overpaid and cabin crew gallantly saving the company hold zero water with me. I've never advocated either position.
And still you miss the point about roles and 20 years.
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No I admit there are no guarantees in a job or ''career''.
However - what crew are worried about is will BA DELIBERATELY take NRT, HKG, GVA, ZRH, BRU and similar good earning routes in the future???
Look, a 6 hour GVA there and back that has a turnaround in GVA at 1800 earns between £60-£70 in allowances.
Mixed Fleet would earn £14.40!
Some routes are not mnuch different in allowances particularly on shorthaul or the India/African/and some US routes.
If Mixed Fleet is all about cost savings - what would be the point in creating a new fleet to save money WHEN the routes that transfer across earn similar or are not much less.
WW even recently said himself in an interview about SYD not being profitable enough! And Mixed Fleet will help with this. Why? Because of the allowances of crew. Or so I have read, will have to try and find it again!
So, whilst say in your example Colonel White, NRT was dropped as a route - there is nothing that could be done about that! But basically we would not have a problem with that because they are not taking our work to be given to ''cheaper crew''. I can see where you are coming from, though!
It's just easy for people to come on here and say ''what are crew worried about'' blah blah, but it's more than a crew member less on flights! This Mixed Fleet is a lot more than other departments have been asked for - it does pose a threat.
Plus, Mixed Fleet is very poor pay. Nothing we can really do - it is what they want to pay - but I am sorry, it is a culture in society today - a race to the bottom! Working it out it would be less than friends working for airlines like EasyJet - please remember that a studio flat in London is often around the £800 mark. A study on the BBC has actually recently stated that wages in the UK are not enough and minimum wage should be more... isn't it a good thing we are well paid and shouldn't we be the benchmark? BA are not going to go bust - if they were wouldn't they need an immediate saving of money not one that will save money over years... also the share bonuses etc for the top could be less (I am not a socialist btw!)
Maybe if BASSA/UNITE had negotiated better in the past BA wouldn't need to introduce Mixed Fleet - BUT having said that, in some ways it is good we have a strong union, maybe other people who say ''we are so lucky'' should just remember why maybe?
I know I have stated BA has been reasonable in the past - and for a lot of the part they have, but I don't know if the bigger picture is more evident to see... I can see your point of view and I do accept there is no guarantees, but I don't want to be signing or accepting an offer that willingly is akin to signing our careers away!
However - what crew are worried about is will BA DELIBERATELY take NRT, HKG, GVA, ZRH, BRU and similar good earning routes in the future???
Look, a 6 hour GVA there and back that has a turnaround in GVA at 1800 earns between £60-£70 in allowances.
Mixed Fleet would earn £14.40!
Some routes are not mnuch different in allowances particularly on shorthaul or the India/African/and some US routes.
If Mixed Fleet is all about cost savings - what would be the point in creating a new fleet to save money WHEN the routes that transfer across earn similar or are not much less.
WW even recently said himself in an interview about SYD not being profitable enough! And Mixed Fleet will help with this. Why? Because of the allowances of crew. Or so I have read, will have to try and find it again!
So, whilst say in your example Colonel White, NRT was dropped as a route - there is nothing that could be done about that! But basically we would not have a problem with that because they are not taking our work to be given to ''cheaper crew''. I can see where you are coming from, though!
It's just easy for people to come on here and say ''what are crew worried about'' blah blah, but it's more than a crew member less on flights! This Mixed Fleet is a lot more than other departments have been asked for - it does pose a threat.
Plus, Mixed Fleet is very poor pay. Nothing we can really do - it is what they want to pay - but I am sorry, it is a culture in society today - a race to the bottom! Working it out it would be less than friends working for airlines like EasyJet - please remember that a studio flat in London is often around the £800 mark. A study on the BBC has actually recently stated that wages in the UK are not enough and minimum wage should be more... isn't it a good thing we are well paid and shouldn't we be the benchmark? BA are not going to go bust - if they were wouldn't they need an immediate saving of money not one that will save money over years... also the share bonuses etc for the top could be less (I am not a socialist btw!)
Maybe if BASSA/UNITE had negotiated better in the past BA wouldn't need to introduce Mixed Fleet - BUT having said that, in some ways it is good we have a strong union, maybe other people who say ''we are so lucky'' should just remember why maybe?
I know I have stated BA has been reasonable in the past - and for a lot of the part they have, but I don't know if the bigger picture is more evident to see... I can see your point of view and I do accept there is no guarantees, but I don't want to be signing or accepting an offer that willingly is akin to signing our careers away!
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What is it with the word plot... Ive lost it, bassa have never had it.. WW has more of them than Wimpey homes! When I think I stated that WW is Kaiser Soze in a previous post, I think you have taken this to seriously.
BA are a shrinking company that is losing a fortune every day, now if the rest of the company can agree. OK were in at the deep end here, how can we get out of it and work on that solution. While one small minority sit in the deep end splashing about and shouting, while the rest of us try and talk to them, showing how we are all working together to help everyone out. How long do you give it before the minority, destroy what the majority want. Or do you leave the minority in the deepend shouting and splashing, while the rest of us move on.
BA are a shrinking company that is losing a fortune every day, now if the rest of the company can agree. OK were in at the deep end here, how can we get out of it and work on that solution. While one small minority sit in the deep end splashing about and shouting, while the rest of us try and talk to them, showing how we are all working together to help everyone out. How long do you give it before the minority, destroy what the majority want. Or do you leave the minority in the deepend shouting and splashing, while the rest of us move on.
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The problem in IFCE was that the amount we were to save kept changing and when BASSA put ideas on the table, (whether they were any good or not), they were reject because the savings required had just changed.
It changed afterwards just as BA said it would. Complaining that BA did what they say they would isn't really on.
Once again all other departments did what was asked of them when they were asked to do it. Why are IFCE special?
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Midman, Holland J did not state that BASSA had refused to negotiate per se, and it certainly wasn't his judgement.
Hotel mode, from Feb to May the value required changed from £82m to £140m
Hotel mode, from Feb to May the value required changed from £82m to £140m
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Does anyone have a timeline of all the;
-negotiations
-offoers
-proposals
-cost savings targets
-strops and 'I'm not listening to them'
events in this dispute... so we can then say who exactly is wrong... As I hear different things ie.... BASSA offered good cost savings that were £10m apart from BA but were agreeable by crew so a good compromise but you know what.... there is just so much in the air that it's confusing!
-negotiations
-offoers
-proposals
-cost savings targets
-strops and 'I'm not listening to them'
events in this dispute... so we can then say who exactly is wrong... As I hear different things ie.... BASSA offered good cost savings that were £10m apart from BA but were agreeable by crew so a good compromise but you know what.... there is just so much in the air that it's confusing!
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Hotel mode, from Feb to May the value required changed from £82m to £140m
82 mil was the annual saving per financial year.
140 was the total saving over the 2 year business plan.
The business plan (based on financial year) had to be delivered by 30th June. Ie 3 months into financial year. So only 21 months to go. Total savings over 21 months = 143 million.
It seems you've been believing BASSA spin. The annual savings did not change.
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Dear Slidebustle,
It seems to me that you've been working with a lot of strikers lately, and by the looks of it, you've been given a hard time whilst at work. It's really hard when you're being told constantly that "you were wrong to strike, look how much bassa offered, you can't believe anything Walsh and Francis say", etc etc, to not doubt yourself and your (previous) beliefs. I'm not blaming you at all, but please really think this through before you make any rash decisions. I hope you can conclude that you were right in the first place (not striking), but only you can make that decision.
PC767,
You seem to not believe what people here tell you. Fair enough, to a certain degree, as we cannot know everyone on here, and whether they're telling the truth. May I recommend you read the December court judgement again. It has a very good run-down of meetings (or lack of).
As others have pointed out, the savings figures only changed after the deadline of June last year. Because very few changes (big ones I mean) have been done in our department (ifce) through the years, this "hit" will hurt more than other departments who have made changes on a more regular basis.
In general,
for BA to be able to grow, we need to cut costs. We've cut so many routes it's quite scary. The only way we can compete with other airlines, is to control costs. Not just from CC, but all departments. Mixed fleet isn't just about low salaries (in my opinion), but also about flexibility. One only needs to look at what's happened at LGW in the last 4-5 years, to see what the big plan has been.
It seems to me that you've been working with a lot of strikers lately, and by the looks of it, you've been given a hard time whilst at work. It's really hard when you're being told constantly that "you were wrong to strike, look how much bassa offered, you can't believe anything Walsh and Francis say", etc etc, to not doubt yourself and your (previous) beliefs. I'm not blaming you at all, but please really think this through before you make any rash decisions. I hope you can conclude that you were right in the first place (not striking), but only you can make that decision.
PC767,
You seem to not believe what people here tell you. Fair enough, to a certain degree, as we cannot know everyone on here, and whether they're telling the truth. May I recommend you read the December court judgement again. It has a very good run-down of meetings (or lack of).
As others have pointed out, the savings figures only changed after the deadline of June last year. Because very few changes (big ones I mean) have been done in our department (ifce) through the years, this "hit" will hurt more than other departments who have made changes on a more regular basis.
In general,
for BA to be able to grow, we need to cut costs. We've cut so many routes it's quite scary. The only way we can compete with other airlines, is to control costs. Not just from CC, but all departments. Mixed fleet isn't just about low salaries (in my opinion), but also about flexibility. One only needs to look at what's happened at LGW in the last 4-5 years, to see what the big plan has been.
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MIDLGW,
More recently I have worked with more strikers - yes I would say I have... Most haven't given me a hard time necessarily, (some have though - well not so much a hard time but been cold and frosty which is bad enough!) but I have listened to the points of views of these crew.
I think what makes it harder for me is about half of my friends/people I know went to work, some believe BA are in the right, BASSA/UNITE are in the wrong. Some went into work but don't necessarily agree with BA or BASSA/UNITE. About half striked! And you know what - I respect EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM NO MATTER WHAT THEY DID - as they haven't done anything despicable. And no matter what decision I decide on in the future - I will respect strikers/non-strikers alike, because I think it is such a difficult decision no matter what you decide! Further, this whole dispute has become such a muddle that it is hard to put your finger on who is right or wrong. Sometimes I find myself agreeing with what BA are saying and their proposals, but then also with BASSA/UNITE but I know both sides have done wrong too - BA pay my wages though... but the pay I earn is helped by BASSA/UNITE - arghh! That's how I am so confused!
I know BA needs to make changes, but I also value my terms and pay. BA HAVE said they will protected. They are words that can be broken as BASSA say - but the question is will BA break this like they did crew complements? Or is it all BASSA scaremongering - as we are all aware they love that! They (apparently) have done it all the time there has been a dispute. But I am suspicious of these ''assurances''...
I suppose the good thing is - time is on my side and I can read EVERYTHING from both sides and make an informed decision! And I do value the forums (all 4 - this, Crewforum, BASSA and PCCC) for gaining these views... I have been in meetings in CRC and to be honest, Bill Francis does seem honest, and a fair sort of guy, but obviously as someone after a career - it is just a worry about it all that's all!
Plus, obviously the other confusing thing is some people who went into work are thinking of striking (or so some people on other forums say!!) but on the other hand - some strikers went back to work or may work next time!! ARGHHHH!!
Thanks though - and don't worry I will carefully make my own decision after looking at both sides! And will continue with this forum!
Let's hope we get a good agreement soon anyway!
Anyway best get to bed! HAHA!
More recently I have worked with more strikers - yes I would say I have... Most haven't given me a hard time necessarily, (some have though - well not so much a hard time but been cold and frosty which is bad enough!) but I have listened to the points of views of these crew.
I think what makes it harder for me is about half of my friends/people I know went to work, some believe BA are in the right, BASSA/UNITE are in the wrong. Some went into work but don't necessarily agree with BA or BASSA/UNITE. About half striked! And you know what - I respect EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM NO MATTER WHAT THEY DID - as they haven't done anything despicable. And no matter what decision I decide on in the future - I will respect strikers/non-strikers alike, because I think it is such a difficult decision no matter what you decide! Further, this whole dispute has become such a muddle that it is hard to put your finger on who is right or wrong. Sometimes I find myself agreeing with what BA are saying and their proposals, but then also with BASSA/UNITE but I know both sides have done wrong too - BA pay my wages though... but the pay I earn is helped by BASSA/UNITE - arghh! That's how I am so confused!
I know BA needs to make changes, but I also value my terms and pay. BA HAVE said they will protected. They are words that can be broken as BASSA say - but the question is will BA break this like they did crew complements? Or is it all BASSA scaremongering - as we are all aware they love that! They (apparently) have done it all the time there has been a dispute. But I am suspicious of these ''assurances''...
I suppose the good thing is - time is on my side and I can read EVERYTHING from both sides and make an informed decision! And I do value the forums (all 4 - this, Crewforum, BASSA and PCCC) for gaining these views... I have been in meetings in CRC and to be honest, Bill Francis does seem honest, and a fair sort of guy, but obviously as someone after a career - it is just a worry about it all that's all!
Plus, obviously the other confusing thing is some people who went into work are thinking of striking (or so some people on other forums say!!) but on the other hand - some strikers went back to work or may work next time!! ARGHHHH!!
Thanks though - and don't worry I will carefully make my own decision after looking at both sides! And will continue with this forum!
Let's hope we get a good agreement soon anyway!
Anyway best get to bed! HAHA!
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Juan
I just banged my keyboard out of sheer frustration.
I'm one of the afforementioned examples and can categorically state that we have had a tough time over the past few years and continue to do so.
Juan, is this just about winding people up or are you just being very, very selective in the posts that you read?
I'm one of the afforementioned examples and can categorically state that we have had a tough time over the past few years and continue to do so.
Juan, is this just about winding people up or are you just being very, very selective in the posts that you read?
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Hotel Mode.
I didn't take my figures from BASSA.
I took my figures from Sir Christopher Holland J as cited in Malone & Others v British Airways PLC [2010] EWHC 302 (QB).
'i) 24th February – At a National Sectional Panel (“NSP”) meeting Mr Francis told the Union that in the then financial circumstances BA looked to save £82m as against the cost of cabin crew.
iv) May – Following release of the figures for the first quarter (see para 12 above) the required costs saving was increased to £140m.'
Did the learned Judge fall for BASSA's spin as well?
MIDLGW.
I have read the case.
I didn't take my figures from BASSA.
I took my figures from Sir Christopher Holland J as cited in Malone & Others v British Airways PLC [2010] EWHC 302 (QB).
'i) 24th February – At a National Sectional Panel (“NSP”) meeting Mr Francis told the Union that in the then financial circumstances BA looked to save £82m as against the cost of cabin crew.
iv) May – Following release of the figures for the first quarter (see para 12 above) the required costs saving was increased to £140m.'
Did the learned Judge fall for BASSA's spin as well?
MIDLGW.
I have read the case.