British Airways vs. BASSA (current Airline Staff Only)
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I do find it upsetting how some people who post on here seem to be reveling at this offer and almost rubbing your hands with glee at how bad it is
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Anotherthing,
As far as I am aware the ballot is taken on a majority of returned votes minus any spoiled. Thus, if only LHR are considered eligible to vote as the balloted issues only affect them and not LGW (who BASSA have already sold down the river anyway) then your 60% return would hold true as non returned votes are considered 'yes' in effect.
Bizarre but, hey, this is Unite we are talking about.
The first strike call had a fairly health majority until the members realised what a suicide course their Union was taking. The second came very close to being less than half of the balloted membership.
This one? By limiting it to LHR crews they have a greater proportion of militants within a smaller group.
As far as I am aware the ballot is taken on a majority of returned votes minus any spoiled. Thus, if only LHR are considered eligible to vote as the balloted issues only affect them and not LGW (who BASSA have already sold down the river anyway) then your 60% return would hold true as non returned votes are considered 'yes' in effect.
Bizarre but, hey, this is Unite we are talking about.
The first strike call had a fairly health majority until the members realised what a suicide course their Union was taking. The second came very close to being less than half of the balloted membership.
This one? By limiting it to LHR crews they have a greater proportion of militants within a smaller group.
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If the latest ballot is applied in this way, there will be NO confidence in the outcome as it will be excluding cabin crew who pay their UNITE dues. Because they don't agree with the union on these issues, it doesn't give UNITE the right to take their vote away. Are they going to refund subs to these "not fit for this purpose" members? Don't hold your breath!
Meanwhile there are a lot of us non-strikers who are stuck between a rubbish union and a company who won't value those who didn't go on strike. No surprise there, but disappointing nonetheless. So we are treated equally with those who damaged the company. I did actually expect this, but there are a lot of shocked people who believed their managers when they told them they would look after them. I didn't think for a minute that they could treat two groups of the same cabin crew community in a different fashion, but why not try to come to an amicable agreement with the last offer of travel payment to go over to new fleet with the previous offer of guarantee of basic with it? Instead, after 22 years of flying, I'd go onto a starters salary. Is it usual to expect that when you start a job, your pay gets slashed to starters rates after nearly a couple of decades of loyalty? Is this going to be applied to other departments?
Nobody is being forced to move, but a lot of us want a settlement for our terms, and if that means integrating with New Fleet, or transferring to it, that's ok, but this is not accomodating anything like that. Yes, BASSA missed the boat in getting it sorted out, but why do the rest of us who didn't agree with this, have to be held ransom for their stance?
Reading back, it looks like I'm whinging - I don't mean it like that. I'm just searching for a solution, but I can't see how the moderate cabin crew community can do that. The militants are now balloting on issues that won't solve anything, and the company isn't offering reasonable transfer conditions onto New Fleet. I don't mind my pay being restructured, and taking a freeze or fair drop, considering the current climate. But I do still have to pay my (not crippling) mortgage, and the transferal salaries currently on offer, would only put me in arrears.
If the militants want to ballot about things that they have no control over and will not change, then they can carry on until the cows come home. I and many others are only interested in a solution that will work and sort out our outstanding issues regarding New Fleet. This just isn't happening at the moment, and there are mumblings on another forum about loss of trust with management and even rejoining the union, the latter not being high on my list, I hasten to add. This is going backwards not forwards, and is very worrying.
Meanwhile there are a lot of us non-strikers who are stuck between a rubbish union and a company who won't value those who didn't go on strike. No surprise there, but disappointing nonetheless. So we are treated equally with those who damaged the company. I did actually expect this, but there are a lot of shocked people who believed their managers when they told them they would look after them. I didn't think for a minute that they could treat two groups of the same cabin crew community in a different fashion, but why not try to come to an amicable agreement with the last offer of travel payment to go over to new fleet with the previous offer of guarantee of basic with it? Instead, after 22 years of flying, I'd go onto a starters salary. Is it usual to expect that when you start a job, your pay gets slashed to starters rates after nearly a couple of decades of loyalty? Is this going to be applied to other departments?
Nobody is being forced to move, but a lot of us want a settlement for our terms, and if that means integrating with New Fleet, or transferring to it, that's ok, but this is not accomodating anything like that. Yes, BASSA missed the boat in getting it sorted out, but why do the rest of us who didn't agree with this, have to be held ransom for their stance?
Reading back, it looks like I'm whinging - I don't mean it like that. I'm just searching for a solution, but I can't see how the moderate cabin crew community can do that. The militants are now balloting on issues that won't solve anything, and the company isn't offering reasonable transfer conditions onto New Fleet. I don't mind my pay being restructured, and taking a freeze or fair drop, considering the current climate. But I do still have to pay my (not crippling) mortgage, and the transferal salaries currently on offer, would only put me in arrears.
If the militants want to ballot about things that they have no control over and will not change, then they can carry on until the cows come home. I and many others are only interested in a solution that will work and sort out our outstanding issues regarding New Fleet. This just isn't happening at the moment, and there are mumblings on another forum about loss of trust with management and even rejoining the union, the latter not being high on my list, I hasten to add. This is going backwards not forwards, and is very worrying.
Last edited by Bridchen; 24th Jun 2010 at 15:21.
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If I were him I’d know that winning this would allow me to roll over every other group of workers in the company at a time of my choosing. The pilots are not unassailable either.
The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.
The 40 odd PSU personnel who have just volunteered to be the next VCC obviously don’t see what happened in Spain as a template for the rest of the UK. I’m sure you’ll all be happy working for Swissport when the time comes. Doesn’t Willey have a large stake in that? They have just trialled reduced staff at the gates…yet amazingly no alarm bells rang for the PSU volunteers’. Oh well back to watching.
WW himself has said that he believes BA should be handled by it's own staff at its main base, ie LHR and until such time as he or someone else on the leadership team indicates otherwise, I have no reason question this. Will it be the same as when I joined years ago? No, but then I am one of the many who accept that change has to happen and that none of us can hide from it. Does it mean potentially that I might not have a job? Yes, there is always that possibility and this is something that I have faced in various jobs I've held prior to joining BA.
PS, for the record, there are a lot more than 40 PSU who have become volunteer cabin crew, unless you are simply talking about the most recent courses.
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Bridchen , have a good read of Bill F's latest email. He basically guarantees all that you are looking for. If the next strike goes ahead, I think you will definately see the benefits of backing BA
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Hmm not too sure about this MFH to be honest (non-striker, voted No and recognises change is inevitable but we do need protections)
I along with many Main Crew would have been interested at going over as CSM which to many main crew is a reasonable salary (more than I get as MC anyway!) However although I have a couple/few years as crew I do not have previous management experience and haven't been a ''SCCM for a year'' so can't directly go into it (fair enough if there is alot of ground management tasks and training in addition to being SCCM) Now I could go onto that ''Future Talent Crew'' which I can apply for where you work up, are qualified to work up as SCCM out of standby and learn all the skills of CSM over a year and do SCCM assessments etc etc and get CSM training blah blah... but it means for that year I would be on less pay (MFH Main Crew salary which I must admit is quite low!) and - at the end of that year, I could have worked very hard and passed everything etc.... but there may not be any CSM vacancies going so I would have to stay as Main Crew on MFH - and then I wouldn't be able to get back to EF/WW!!
Having said that the CSM role does look very interesting, and as someone with a career ahead of me it does seem like an oppurtunity so I am sort of ''shall I shan't I'' with regards to Future Talent Crew - it would provide the skills and development to get where I would like to be (CSM) and looks like a good development oppurtunity. But if they are saying MFH will grow slowly - what if they don't need CSMs at the end of it and I am on lower pay!!! I could maybe downsize etc for a year whilst I do it that would be fine but I wouldn't then want to be stuck on £11,000 plus £2.40 an hour!
Also, Eurofleet and Worldwide do really need action with regards to safeguards - UNITE need to really look at this now and get serious as it is here, or PCCC need to get their 40% at least and maybe they will get the safeguards of UNITE seem so bothered about balloting - as this ballot will not send Mixed Fleet away - but current fleets NEED safeguards!
I along with many Main Crew would have been interested at going over as CSM which to many main crew is a reasonable salary (more than I get as MC anyway!) However although I have a couple/few years as crew I do not have previous management experience and haven't been a ''SCCM for a year'' so can't directly go into it (fair enough if there is alot of ground management tasks and training in addition to being SCCM) Now I could go onto that ''Future Talent Crew'' which I can apply for where you work up, are qualified to work up as SCCM out of standby and learn all the skills of CSM over a year and do SCCM assessments etc etc and get CSM training blah blah... but it means for that year I would be on less pay (MFH Main Crew salary which I must admit is quite low!) and - at the end of that year, I could have worked very hard and passed everything etc.... but there may not be any CSM vacancies going so I would have to stay as Main Crew on MFH - and then I wouldn't be able to get back to EF/WW!!
Having said that the CSM role does look very interesting, and as someone with a career ahead of me it does seem like an oppurtunity so I am sort of ''shall I shan't I'' with regards to Future Talent Crew - it would provide the skills and development to get where I would like to be (CSM) and looks like a good development oppurtunity. But if they are saying MFH will grow slowly - what if they don't need CSMs at the end of it and I am on lower pay!!! I could maybe downsize etc for a year whilst I do it that would be fine but I wouldn't then want to be stuck on £11,000 plus £2.40 an hour!
Also, Eurofleet and Worldwide do really need action with regards to safeguards - UNITE need to really look at this now and get serious as it is here, or PCCC need to get their 40% at least and maybe they will get the safeguards of UNITE seem so bothered about balloting - as this ballot will not send Mixed Fleet away - but current fleets NEED safeguards!
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It's not that the offer is 'bad', it's what BA defines as being market rate for the job. Times have changed, as has the aviation market.
Thomson (Mixed Fleet) 11500 basic + 2.85 ph?
Thomascook (Mixed Fleet) 11500 basic + 2.85 ph?
BMI are much higher than this
and Virgin is hard to compare, but BA's offer is no way 10% above.. market rate
BA 11000 basic and 2.40ph
I think BA will need to up the salary to be able to keep good crew and not loose out on the cost of training/recruiting only to loose large numbers to other airlines as things pick up.
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Legandawing,
I do agree with you, about the Main Crew salary. CSM sounds quite reasonable (for Main Crew to make the jump - not sure about current CSD/PSRs as it probably will be a paycut) although not sure what other airlines pay for their SCCMs??
But the Main Crew salary is quite low. We all know times change and market changes, that is recognised by many of us. But it does seem lower than the charters (Thomson and Thomas Cook that you have quoted show this! Plus they get their commission on DFs/drinks/snacks/other sales!) and even BMI. Not forgetting Easyjet which their salary is probably the next highest after current BAs (new contract) some people on EF say they get around the same as they did at EZY! The only airline that Mixed Fleet maybe higher than (even that is questionable as not sure about their allowance system) is Virgin - oh and maybe Ryanair!
Unless I am missing something?? Although it goes without saying BA WILL get their crew for this fleet for the glamour and flying a mixture of longhaul and shorthaul. Especially people out of uni etc... It will mostly be young people I should imagine, but turnover will be much higher. Like you say though, whilst BA say turnover is healthy (I suppose it is) too high a turnover will increase costs in training etc etc....
It will be interesting to see though.
EDITED TO ADD: Oh just a thought - maybe the Performance Pay element they will introduce WILL make the salary market rate plus 10% - the temps currently are only getting the £11,000 plus £2.40 an hour but the new proposals from BA and the new MFH website shows Performance Pay and bonuses. So maybe the salary isn't as set in stone as we thought?
I do agree with you, about the Main Crew salary. CSM sounds quite reasonable (for Main Crew to make the jump - not sure about current CSD/PSRs as it probably will be a paycut) although not sure what other airlines pay for their SCCMs??
But the Main Crew salary is quite low. We all know times change and market changes, that is recognised by many of us. But it does seem lower than the charters (Thomson and Thomas Cook that you have quoted show this! Plus they get their commission on DFs/drinks/snacks/other sales!) and even BMI. Not forgetting Easyjet which their salary is probably the next highest after current BAs (new contract) some people on EF say they get around the same as they did at EZY! The only airline that Mixed Fleet maybe higher than (even that is questionable as not sure about their allowance system) is Virgin - oh and maybe Ryanair!
Unless I am missing something?? Although it goes without saying BA WILL get their crew for this fleet for the glamour and flying a mixture of longhaul and shorthaul. Especially people out of uni etc... It will mostly be young people I should imagine, but turnover will be much higher. Like you say though, whilst BA say turnover is healthy (I suppose it is) too high a turnover will increase costs in training etc etc....
It will be interesting to see though.
EDITED TO ADD: Oh just a thought - maybe the Performance Pay element they will introduce WILL make the salary market rate plus 10% - the temps currently are only getting the £11,000 plus £2.40 an hour but the new proposals from BA and the new MFH website shows Performance Pay and bonuses. So maybe the salary isn't as set in stone as we thought?
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SlideBustle, I agree! P-T Gamekeeper, I know what you mean regarding BF's email, but the guarantees are only applied to our current fleets. If we transferred we would sign a new contract and those guarantees would become defunct. It also doesn't address our main problem - that of our current fleets being wound down, and our integration onto the new fleet. I've still got at least 18 years to go, and so this is of concern to me. Like SlideBustle said, CSM training is no guarantee of promotion. It could even be just a carrot that ends up having no substance. Of course you cannot guarantee someone promotion, but then, really, just interview them as with the current process!
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I am reliably informed that EVERYONE is having to submit an application for these new jobs - whether in the holding pool or not. Previous suggestions that ex-temps currently in the pool are being allowed to bypass the application form stage are, according to my 'sources', inaccurate.
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Eddy
I have four friends in the holding pool - three ex-temps and one who was selected last year but is yet to fly. All have been given interview dates without having had to submit an application form. Nontheless, I do not see completion of the form to be a problem (it's not particularly demanding) and it is likely to be very useful as a preparation aid when getting ready for the assessment.
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I think BA will need to up the salary to be able to keep good crew and not loose out on the cost of training/recruiting only to loose large numbers to other airlines as things pick up.
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If you offer a 20 year old that kind of money to travel the world for a few years, party in HKG, sit on the beach in MRU or shop in NYC, plus the chance to use staff travel for their family.... do you really think they won't get enough applicants with the economy the way it is?! 
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Express 1, yes I am talking about the latest batch of volunteers only.
I get the impression that you are maybe a PSU Duty Manager or similar.
You say the trial was with union agreement. At least one union rep is telling PSU staff that BA is just going ahead with various trials. If the union agrees, all well and good, if they don’t, they carry on regardless. Not quite the same story.
Forgive me but like most bosses, what Willie says or promises is probably good for about a week at most. They tend to look you in the eye, categorically state that there are no plans for xyz etc. Then low and behold…a new plan for the future is discovered.
I must be getting cynical, I wonder why.
I get the impression that you are maybe a PSU Duty Manager or similar.
You say the trial was with union agreement. At least one union rep is telling PSU staff that BA is just going ahead with various trials. If the union agrees, all well and good, if they don’t, they carry on regardless. Not quite the same story.
WW himself has said that he believes BA should be handled by it's own staff at its main base
I must be getting cynical, I wonder why.
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Fruitbat,
Of course they WILL get many crew! Like I said it will mostly be younger people from the minimum age (18) and twenties, as many of these people in these age groups don't have commitments, live at home and the oppurtunity to do a job that is still percieved as ''glamorous'' and see the world would be fab for many! Especially as many other customer service jobs are not very well paid anyway!
What we are saying though, is people will not be able to stay for longer than 3-4 years on this, and as they will be working to scheme they would be working harder, which would be tiring after 3-4 years, which for most they wouldn't mind if the salary was more. I appreciate this is what BA want, a higher turnover, but they have to be careful with training costs.
Of course they WILL get many crew! Like I said it will mostly be younger people from the minimum age (18) and twenties, as many of these people in these age groups don't have commitments, live at home and the oppurtunity to do a job that is still percieved as ''glamorous'' and see the world would be fab for many! Especially as many other customer service jobs are not very well paid anyway!
What we are saying though, is people will not be able to stay for longer than 3-4 years on this, and as they will be working to scheme they would be working harder, which would be tiring after 3-4 years, which for most they wouldn't mind if the salary was more. I appreciate this is what BA want, a higher turnover, but they have to be careful with training costs.
BASSA ain't happy .... and is still blaming everybody else! If they could have been bothered to actually negotiate, they could have shaped Mixed Fleet. And they continue to wonder why the company went ahead without them.
So ........ what has all the strike stuff achieved? Anyone? It has hardened resolve to kick BASSA in to touch. Nothing else.
So ........ what has all the strike stuff achieved? Anyone? It has hardened resolve to kick BASSA in to touch. Nothing else.
"MIXED FLEET"
Jun 24th, 2010 by admin
New Fleet is now “Mixed Fleet” and it’s happening...
Almost 18 months ago to the day, we were leaked BA’s Operation Columbus proposals.......... we immediately published them.
Yesterday those proposals finally became reality.
If you take a moment to read your ESS you will see exactly how excited, the oily Bill Francis is over its launch. Existing current crew will probably be slightly less overjoyed.
Every single fact that we have published about it, has now been proven to be true. Far from misleading people, we told the truth, its there in black and white for everybody to see.
Performance related pay without annual increments
No variable payments
£2.40 hourly rate
Reduced salary levels
External entry for Cabin Service Manager
No purser
No fixed roster
No recognised agreement
Working on the ground
Mixed flying
Developmental “working up” for no additional pay
To quote directly from the recruiting advert
“At start up our route network will be relatively small but as the fleet grows, we will be adding further destinations providing you with a greater variety of trips to choose from”
You may need to pause and reflect, what those routes will be and who’s work it will be. The answer, unfortunately, is yours.
In his introductory briefing to his management team Bill Francis emphasised the cost savings this “mixed fleet” will bring, not only for the reasons above but he also specifically emphasised the savings that will result from less rest both at base and downroute - one easy example being the ending of the double night.
Are you going to be forced onto it right now? Of course not. Over a period of time is the answer though nobody knows exactly and that is the concern. It is a fleet at your base, doing your work, at a far cheaper cost. You work it out.
What is not in any doubt is that your routes will go as they are transferred over, season by season.
This is why your union has been unable to reach agreement for so long. What union wants an agreement that essentially is the beginning of the end for all its members?
Your union has been trying to warn you how serious this situation is for 18 months, many of you were aware of that and joined the recent disputes, many people though simply did not believe it and joined in with the “keep the flag flying” hysteria.
Every action has a consequence, no matter how brave and strong some crew were, others simply were not and that lack of support has lead us to today.
The irony is that there is no big thank you or reward for breaking the strike, simply an invitation alongside everyone else to “apply” for mixed fleet.
Mixed fleet is here, nothing is going to change that now, but without proper safeguards, it awaits us in all its glory, sooner or later. Our focus must remain on achieving those safeguards, for without them, our future is decidedly uncertain.
Jun 24th, 2010 by admin
New Fleet is now “Mixed Fleet” and it’s happening...
Almost 18 months ago to the day, we were leaked BA’s Operation Columbus proposals.......... we immediately published them.
Yesterday those proposals finally became reality.
If you take a moment to read your ESS you will see exactly how excited, the oily Bill Francis is over its launch. Existing current crew will probably be slightly less overjoyed.
Every single fact that we have published about it, has now been proven to be true. Far from misleading people, we told the truth, its there in black and white for everybody to see.
Performance related pay without annual increments
No variable payments
£2.40 hourly rate
Reduced salary levels
External entry for Cabin Service Manager
No purser
No fixed roster
No recognised agreement
Working on the ground
Mixed flying
Developmental “working up” for no additional pay
To quote directly from the recruiting advert
“At start up our route network will be relatively small but as the fleet grows, we will be adding further destinations providing you with a greater variety of trips to choose from”
You may need to pause and reflect, what those routes will be and who’s work it will be. The answer, unfortunately, is yours.
In his introductory briefing to his management team Bill Francis emphasised the cost savings this “mixed fleet” will bring, not only for the reasons above but he also specifically emphasised the savings that will result from less rest both at base and downroute - one easy example being the ending of the double night.
Are you going to be forced onto it right now? Of course not. Over a period of time is the answer though nobody knows exactly and that is the concern. It is a fleet at your base, doing your work, at a far cheaper cost. You work it out.
What is not in any doubt is that your routes will go as they are transferred over, season by season.
This is why your union has been unable to reach agreement for so long. What union wants an agreement that essentially is the beginning of the end for all its members?
Your union has been trying to warn you how serious this situation is for 18 months, many of you were aware of that and joined the recent disputes, many people though simply did not believe it and joined in with the “keep the flag flying” hysteria.
Every action has a consequence, no matter how brave and strong some crew were, others simply were not and that lack of support has lead us to today.
The irony is that there is no big thank you or reward for breaking the strike, simply an invitation alongside everyone else to “apply” for mixed fleet.
Mixed fleet is here, nothing is going to change that now, but without proper safeguards, it awaits us in all its glory, sooner or later. Our focus must remain on achieving those safeguards, for without them, our future is decidedly uncertain.
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Originally Posted by Bassa Admin
Your union has been trying to warn you how serious this situation is for 18 months, many of you were aware of that and joined the recent disputes, many people though simply did not believe it and joined in with the “keep the flag flying” hysteria.
Had Bassa thought more logically about things back in June of 2009, they could have been very much involved in working out the arrangements to make New Fleet a more attractive prospect both for existing crew and for new entrants.
New Fleet need not represent a grave threat to the terms and conditions of extra crew. If, at the end of this dispute, Bassa shows that it's more prepared than in the past to negotiate with the company I believe the company will stick to its promise to limit Mixed Fleet's growth.
I fear that Mixed Fleet is going to struggle to get the level of experienced crew it really needs to deliver a service people expect from British Airways.
I certainly don't imagine there will be many existing crew applying for positions on New Fleet, particularly considering the company's requirement essentially exclude almost all main crew from applying for the CSM role.
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Who will apply for cabin crew in mixed fleet
The MF cabin crew will have a starter salary of £11,000pa plus allowances plus a possible performance award. Annual earnings could average £18,000. So, who will apply? I think it's likely to be some existing cabin crew plus A3s from outside IFCE. The A3s will most likely be passenger service agents as many have been bursting for years to become CC and their earnings including shift pay will not, for some of them, be much different to £18,000. Furthermore, the PSAs are a good fit: they are already customer-facing, uniformed, have airside passes and work non-regular hours.
A few non-PSA VCC will apply, but most will not as they earn too much or are much more interested in their jobs or career or don't fancy the lifestyle.
A few non-PSA VCC will apply, but most will not as they earn too much or are much more interested in their jobs or career or don't fancy the lifestyle.